I get it for overseas work but domestically the large majority of threats at this time are handgun rounds. Not having a soft armor vest leaves a lot of space uncovered. I’ve had a preference for some time of plates over IIIA and if I had to choose between plates OR soft armor, I’d probably pick soft armor right now. Obviously we could reach a point where the security situation deteriorates and rifles become a more common threat. When you guys weighed this decision why did you choose whatever you chose?

Lots of folks always think more is better.  In reality, if you don't wear it because it's uncomfortable it's useless.  Personally, my belief is that concealment is important for civilian applications in many instances.

I find neither wearing nor concealing such a system to be difficult.

ARs are everywhere. Id rather not need and have hard plates, than need and not have them.

Multicurve plates + JPC 2.0 is rather comfortable and have had no issues wearing it loaded up for hours, even easier without a MK4 on the front.

If I think Ill need any armor, I either need to 1) not go wherever that is and/or 2) wear the best protection I think Ill need.

Soft armor is expensive, particularly good soft armor. The options easily available to civilians are also either awful or somewhat more obscure, so if you start looking for info on this stuff you're going to get a lot of hard sell bad options that make you want to buy something else. Let's be real here: this entire market is luxury imagination. That isn't an insult, we're all grown men here and can buy whatever we want, but maybe 95% of gear that's getting sold isn't getting used regularly. Of that 5% that is, most of that is for "fun". So this isn't a rational market, and most of the customers are not particularly well informed. The prevailing marketing reflects that very well. Plate carriers came into being for use by highly trained assaulters doing direct action with medical support available. Guys with the skill, physical fitness, and processing power to be squared up to most of the sources of gunfire. And should they take a round, they'd have friends to neutralize whatever threats are around, stabilize him, and get him onto a vehicle pretty quickly. Charitably, this does not resemble the situation for most people posting on forums like this, myself included. I went with the Velocity soft armor ecosystem after doing a bunch of research a few years back. Works well enough under oversized clothes or outer layers when scaled down, has options to scale up, is affordable all things considered.

If you believe you're buying gear for a civil war, then do whatever you want I guess. If you plan on choosing to in the near term put yourself in bad situations with rifles, that's a hell of a personal choice. Crime statistics make it pretty clear that handguns are the actual threat at the moment for everyone else who isn't going out looking for trouble. With the political situation being what it is in the United States, the expectation is that we're going to see a significant increase in the baseline of violent crime. More riots, yes, and more overt bad stuff after natural disasters, but also it's potentially going to get bad enough where you'll want a contingency if you have to go into a metropolitan area for work or commerce. I don't think having a lower profile soft armor option is a bad idea. Buy the cool toys too as budget allows.

THIS.


also I'm a dad in the suburbs. I don't wear armor for work. If I have to put it on, it mean stuff is bad enough that I'm walking around the block with a rifle. and likely others are as well. So it makes the most sense in that case to be ready for real bad.

During the "scary" part of the riots and pandemic I just paid to have my food delivered to me, and worked from home. Better to not even be out in the world

You guys realize that I’m not saying plates are bad, just that you should have soft armor around the rest of your torso?

There's a balance between protection, function, and tolerance.

A lot of the places we've fought within the last 20 years are hot.  Some are at high altitude as well.  More soft armor coverage means more retained core body heat.  Being hot all the time means fatigue and discomfort.

Less soft armor and more plate coverage comes at the cost of weight.  Being hot and wearing that weight makes you tired and fatigued as well.

Don't know what your day job is, but try wearing that stuff for just a few hours, every day.  If you live where it's still cold enough to wear winter clothing, put that stuff on and wear a lightweight outer layer (like a wind-breaker that doesn't add more thermal stress, no web gear) all weekend (from Friday through Sunday), driving, to the grocery store, and sitting at home.

Someone sitting in an aircraft seat or a computer desk isn't carrying the same burden as someone who stocks shelves at Home Depot, a lumber yard, or working a farm.

Let us know if you're as fresh as a daisy Sunday night.

Repeat that cycle (every day) for a year.  Maybe a year-and-a-half.

I get all that, that’s why I said domestically.

I'm still wondering where anyone is finding soft armor that doesn't make you look like a 200 pound box of potatoes under normal clothing.

I live in a part of the US where wearing more than a t-shirt and gym shorts or cargo shorts draws attention to you - you might get away with a button-down Tommy Bahama or Columbia shirt without being noticeably different than everyone else, all but 1-2 months a year (and usually not after between 11am-1pm any of the days in those two months).

If you can find soft armor that fits anyone but the smallest twig of a human being and isn't glaringly obvious under that kind of clothing, shoot me a link. I have personal soft armor that isn't totally noticeable, but both of my issued vests have made me look like the Tin Man from the neck to the waist... not to mention they fucking suck for wearing 10-12+ hours a day, even in an air-conditioned building. In a foot pursuit, a fight, or anything else? I'd rather just not be in that place.

I once had an interaction with an officer (as a witness) wearing SAPI plates, IIIA vest and a G34 with a light, and he didn’t notice. It’s all about the outer layer and how you wear it.

This winter I spent quite a bit of time researching and then purchasing gear. The centerpiece of it all was the K19 plate carrier and Hesco 3810s for it. After wearing this setup a few times, I've begun questioning myself on the instances I'd wear it if shit got real (due to weight and constricting breathing). I'm a guy who's played paintball since the late '80s and if there are lessons to be learned over the years of playing, they are:

1. Speed and mobility are vital

2. Not getting shot in the first place is best way not to get shot.

This means using speed, cover, and concealment to your advantage. As such, I'm left wondering if it'd be better to go "slick" unless the situation is dire and clearly necessitates wearing armor.

Dunno. Still trying to figure this all out on the fly.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Midwest-Stinger-Level-II-Review-an-affordable-and-concealable-vest-for-weird-times/10-517294/

https://midwestarmor.com/products/specter-stinger-ii/

Armor is always a tradeoff between size/comfort/maneuverability/mobility and coverage.

I’ve spent a lot of time wearing soft IIIA vests, PCs with BALCS soft armor inserts, as well as standard PCs.  

I typically choose the plain old PC, because for what I need it to do, it offers decent coverage of vital organs, protection from rifle fire, as well as decent mobility.

Most civilians will likely fall into that same boat, where it’s likely reserved for a very kinetic situation with an increased risk of rifle fire as well as a need for maximum mobility.

This is obviously a very personal choice with no one right answer, though.  Spend time training in your shit and use what best suits your needs.

Unless you were wearing an extremely heavy outer garment, this is pure fantasy.

True SAPIs are an inch thick.  Add the IIIA vest and the carrier thickness and you’re closing in on two inches.  Sorry, don’t buy it.

Top pic doesn’t look too bad.  Bottom pic is pretty noticeable.

That said, concealability is just one of many factors when it comes to BA.  Hell, it may not be a factor at all depending on your needs.

Yeah, the mesh cotton used in Lacoste polos doesn't pair well, it clings to the velcro straps. A smooth carrier would likely do better, I'm planning on snagging this 'shirt carrier' at some point to re-test:

https://stealtharmorsystems.com/shop/ols/products/sst-shirt-armored-vest

Button up shirts with some type of pattern seem to be the way to go with the standard carrier; for summer will wear a checked short sleeve button up.

I think the time when we can say this is just about over, if not completely over already. At least it is in my part of the country - especially for the types of (mostly masturbatory fantasy) scenarios most of us are buying armor for.

The AR15 is by far the most popular rifle in the country. More and more people have them, including criminals. If you're buying armor with "tyrannical government" in mind, those "bad guys" will be armed with rifles- not pistols. In fact, I can't imagine a scenario where i would have the need and time to don armor - at least at home- when I wouldn't be facing a rifle threat. (I'm far more likely to be struck by lightning, in any case)

I think inner city crime skews a lot of stats when it comes to which guns are used most often. "Which type of gun is used most often in shootings" is a different question than "which type of gun are you most likely to get shot at with during [insert SHTF scenario here]."

Having said all this - I only have soft armor right now. No hard armor...yet.

It was a university sweatshirt. It’s not that hard. Of course, I have thinner options that hide better now but what percentage of plate carrier setups are meant to be concealed?

During the first 2 weeks of the Pandemic, things were pretty spooky in Las Vegas. Store shelves were empty, Casinos were being covered up in Plywood, gunshops were selling out, and local police patrols were almost non existent; driving around maybe 1 cop per hour vs the regular 1x per 5-10 minutes. My first trip to the grocery store, I was getting hard looks by grim faced shoppers walking out to the parking lot with a full shopping cart.

So, for the next 2 weeks, I wore by IIIA vest under a jacket whenever I would go out to run errands.

Likewise, when Riot Season was in place, I did my errands / gas fill ups wearing armor for the few days protestors were on the strip.

I think its more plausible to be in a 'grey zone' threat between 'normal crime, ccw pistol only' and 'SHTF rifles and plates.' For those in between zones, concealable soft armor is highly recommended. And those types of 'grey zone' events are much more probable then a full scale, 'USA is Somalia now', SHTF scenarios most folks are prepping for.

USGI SAPIs are 0.65" thick. ESAPIs are 0.85". Plates designed more recently than 1997 with similar ratings to SAPI, like the HESCO U210, Tencate CR6450SA, and LTC 28720, are about 0.5" thick. Modern high end IIIA is about 0.17" thick.

While I don't necessarily buy that he was wearing SAPIs, I have some LTC heart plates for my Hardwire vest that are <0.39" thick, and are extremely concealable.

Why would I lie? I still have the rig, it’s in my closet. Sadly I’m much larger now.

I have some thinner/lighter stuff now.

Fair -- it must have been a pretty thick sweater.

A hoodie. Use the hood to break up the plate line in the back and lean forward and cross your arms to break up the front. You gotta be trying, if you were lounging around it would stick out.

Soft armor adds like .4” but since it’s all over, you look fatter but the lines aren’t impossible to hide.

Pandemic, civil unrest on a national scale, divisive and threatening rhetoric from political leaders, shortages in 2020 of basic items, calls to defund law enforcement, massive influx of hundreds of thousands of unknown illegal aliens, contested election results, foreign terrorist threats, hostile foreign nations, unchecked nuclear proliferation, potential for conflict with near peer nations caused by things like China over Taiwan and Russia and the Ukraine, perhaps greater risk of economic collapse due to hyperinflation (if that’s possible reasonable minds can differ), and on and on. Hell, the DOD is releasing videos of UFOs even(I bring that up in jest, but it demonstrates the insanity of the past year in this world.)

I could go on, but I think it’s clear that a reasonable man may have cause to be concerned about things beyond street crime.

Maybe I should have worded something differently.

Why don’t people want soft armor covering the parts of their torso that hard armor doesn’t cover?

I have both. Right tool for the right job.

That said, my soft armor is way past it's expiration date. It was right up against it when I bought it; I figured that mostly being in a Climate controlled closet should stretch out it's life.

I think that for the vast majority of situations, you're either going to have nothing, or you're going to have hard armor.

Soft armor, to me, is a great tool for the Police, who will be going into sketchy situations on the regular. The places that most of us avoid - and the places you're most likely to get shot with a handgun.

And while I know that everyone here wears their Level IIIA Vest everywhere, with a red-dot sighted Glock 17 and 2 spare mags - all concealed, of course - I think the average civilian is very unlikely to wear armor most of the time.

For those of us who avoid the 'hood, you're looking at a use case that involves societal breakdowns - local or otherwise - or situations that cause you to have to enter a very scary area with no hope of avoidance*. In those cases, I think rifle-level protection is more important, and PC's do a good job of protecting you from threats you won't survive. Sure, a hit elsewhere is going to suck, but it probably won't kill you, and even soft armor leaves substantial vital areas unarmored. (Your hips, for instance)

I think if you game out situations where you'd need armor, you'll find that you'd usually rather have plates in cases that you'd actually wear armor for. You aren't wearing it on a Tuesday to the Corner store except on a lark. (If you live somewhere that you need to... I suggest not spending your money on Armor and spending your money on moving)

*-Home defense is a use case; but lets face it, short of home being a FOB, nobody is wearing armor at home unless it's on the Treadmill.

JFC you people all think it’s either or.

But I don't recommend midwest armor currently
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Midwest-Armor-Order-Tracking/10-513763/
I have both but am still waiting for an order from October from midwest.

What I'm seeing OP call for is a BALCS like system with ICW plates.

However, I would argue a concealable level II vest is what I think is surprisingly less popular.

This predominance of plate carriers is equivalent to having an AR but not a CCW.

Sure, if you're defending your home, more is always better, so an AR and PC it is, but if you find merit in having a CCW in elevated threat environments, you can find an argument for a concealed vest.

I know if I lived in MN over the last week, I could find a reason for such, while not wanting to pick up a pizza in full dress.

Ultimately the answer is bc good PCs don't provide the coverage ability. You have to do balcs to get that kinda coverage and that adds a lot of weight, decreased mobility, increased bulk, and assumes you use icw plates which are out of fashion atm.

I can't think of any PCs that provide the level of side protection you're referring to that doesn't also go behind the plate.

Your question has already been answered multiple times.  It adds bulk and weight, it constricts more movement than a PC alone, and it’s hot and uncomfortable when worn for an extended period of time.

It’s a good tool to have in the bag should you need it, but many would rather deal with decreased protection over dealing with the stuff I listed.  Once again, this is obviously up to each individual end user to decide what tradeoffs they’re willing to accept and go from there.

The only one I can think of is the Crye, it omits soft armor and uses the space to circulate air. I’d like to see a plate rating system that has both SA and ICW values. BALCS isn’t the only armor cut that fits but it’s the one the military chose.

For the current threat environment I would rather have a lightweight soft vest than anything else, yes. Jay Danielson would probably agree if he could.

A couple of people spoke to it, most didn’t. Yes it’s hotter and heavier, but there’s a reason that it’s still a standard for many organizations—it covers twice as much of your torso including your sides, partial coverage of the subclavian artery and other important bits.

Real easy, I don't spend time in a high threat enviroment.
I pay attention to my surroundings... I'm not roamin the hood after midnight... I don't go to jack'd up places...  

If I lived in an area where I felt the need to wear soft body armor frequently... I would be rethinking my choices on where I live.

Cops wear them because they live in a potential high thread enviroment during there work day...

I don't, so why would I need to wear soft armor??

I have a PC, shit goes sideways where I need to use it, Soft Armor is not the top of my list of things I need to focus on.

You're looking at it from a strict point of if you're going to own Armor, then buy the stuff that is more practicle to wear more frequently, that has more coverage, vs the armor that you would wear less frequently with less coverage.

Multible  stat's clearly indicate the mortatlity rate with a handgun is 15-20%, so surviving a handgun (without armor) is 80%. combine those odds with mitigating your self from scenarios/enviroments that keep you from getting shot with a handgun....

It would be uneccessary to wear soft Armor.  Risk vs. reward ratio is too far off.

Rifle plates... Means to mean, going in harms way with a higher threat level.

I've worn Armor for extended periods of time... there is no such thing as comfortable. You pick your threat level and then you pick what you're comfortable with to meet that threat.

Are you trying to convince me to share your point of view?

You started this thread to ask a question.  It’s been answered.  As I’m now stating for the third time, everyone approaches this with different goals and requirements in mind.  Everyone is going to have a different level of risk they’re willing to accept based on what tradeoffs they’re willing to deal with.  

Simple as that.  I (as well as many others) fully understand the risk/reward of utilizing/not utilizing soft armor.  There’s a reason plenty of other organizations have decided to eschew soft armor altogether.  Neither choice is necessarily “wrong.”

1.  Why are YOU wearing armor?
2.  How often do you think you're going to be shot?  Do you think you're going to be hit with a rifle?

Back to you, sport.  Just why are YOU wearing SAPI plates?  As many have said, if your environs are routinely bad enough for you to be wearing SAPIs under college sweatshirts while making light banter with the local cops -- you should consider moving.

The answers keep coming back “I don’t wear soft armor because I want plates instead.” That’s my complaint. It’s not either or.

I had the kit I had then (it’s backup now) because it was cheap. And that happened in a nice neighborhood in Harris County, two of the neighbors had a dispute that almost escalated to a shooting. I had to help the officers spot the second parties vehicle, which I did.

Most likely shooting incident for me: training accident with a handgun. Followed by training accident with a rifle.

Hard to argue with all that.

Easy to critique your spelling, though.

I can see situations where a soft vest is much more applicable and practical. Most of that is if I were wearing it under clothes. Velocity Systems makes some great low-vis vests.

Because someone wants to is their reason. I want more protection, not less. Anytime that I think Ill need ballistic protection, I want to protect against as much as possible.

Sure, you can get soft armor and wear it. But if you are worried about taking a bullet, seems foolish to only protect against a few threats vs many threats.

And with any situation, if you are going out and NEED ballistic protection, do you really NEED to go out?

Armor Express is who made my last issued concealable soft armor, and it was a very comfortable vest, as far as armor goes - still fucking miserable in the August sun, directing traffic for 3 hours around a crash on the interstate though.

And back to the OP, I don't wear soft armor under my plate carrier for the same reason I never wore a plate carrier on shift as a normal piece of gear - the juice isn't worth the squeeze in my opinion. Wear it when you need it, but if I'm going somewhere that I think I'm going to need protection from rifle threats, I'd rather be able to get the hell outta there, not have an extra 15 pounds of soft armor that won't stop a rifle bullet anyways.

I already got shot with a pistol and lived, so fuck it

Anyone have experience with the SafeLife FRAS stuff?
Pricey, but probably relatively comfy for rifle rated.
Seems like the evolution of the old Dragon Skin concept.

https://safelifedefense.com/product-category/body-armor/flexible-armor-fras/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4ImEBhDFARIsAGOTMj9JniCBfLIJqQbyhFHdGgJ73dUKBNzXOAs0EfTh5RgvAW-1GQBmAeoaAktwEALw_wcB

You want more protection but I have soft armor under my plates and you don’t.

Yeah, it's absolute garbage. Ballistically extremely questionable, it doesn't bend worth a fuck, it's thick, and very very heavy.

There are two NIJ 0101.06 Listed flexible armor systems -- Stealth Armor Systems Hexar and Verco Materials MotilityMH. Both are designed off patents held by Alan Bain, the guy who runs Stealth Armor Systems, who also did the engineering work behind DragonSkin before Pinnacle Armor cheaped out on the materials and caused all the problems. I'm not entirely sold on the concept outside of niche situations, but in those situations I think there's probably nothing better.

Good for you

One call, does it all.

I originally started off with a armor carrier setup, lvl 3A BALCS soft armor and lvl 3 ceramic plates. My line of thinking was just like yours with pistols being the main treat and wanting as much coverage as possible. Sure it’s heavier than a plate carrier setup but who cares I’m not hiking up mountains in it!

But as I trained in it more I realized not only is it heavy but it’s hard to move in, hard to twist my core, hard to do a sit-up. The soft armor panels and extra fabric and Velcro to hold said can add as much as a 1/2” to your front and back making going prime or sitting awkward. The soft armor in the shoulder also makes shouldering a rifle difficult.

Keep in mind the plates are covering the vital organs. The soft armor, primarily covers non-vital organs. Granted if I was ever shot just outside of the edge of a plate with a pistol wearing a plate carrier I’d probably wish I was wearing an armor carrier instead but chances are I would also probably survive the wound.

Also not all threats are firearms. Self defense encounters are chaotic, and in close quarters even if they start with guns drawn often break down into brawling/grappling your opponent. A good plate carrier setup can weigh as little as 10lbs and wont restrict your movement. You probably have 6lbs of soft armor and fabic.

It’s all about finding that balance. On one extreme you have a bomb suit that provides total ballistic coverage and no mobility, on the other end you have no body armor which offers no ballistic protection and 100% mobility. Armor carriers lean more towards ballistic protection and plate carriers lean more towards mobility.