When does it become “manufacturing”? - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - When does it become “manufacturing”?

Posted: 2/8/2020 9:47:08 AM EDT

I’m trying to decide between my 01 or 07 FFL, and getting my SOT. There aren’t many around here, and I think I could fill a niche locally handling nfa transfers. My question is, I’d like to be able to put together some short barreled rifles as well as samples before helping people handle the paperwork for an sbr. I don’t plan on actually making any of my own parts, so is it considered manufacturing since I didn’t buy complete rifles? I’ve read through the atf site, and looked on several forums, but I can’t find a very clear answer. Couldn’t think of a good key word to search on here either, so if it’s been answered recently, i apologize.

Posted: 2/8/2020 9:52:04 AM EDT

[#1]

OST

Posted: 2/8/2020 11:44:53 AM EDT

[#2]

When you attach a complete upper and lower it's manufacturing. I just asked this question during my 07 interview Thursday.

Posted: 2/8/2020 11:52:57 AM EDT

[#3]

If you are altering/ modifying firearms you own to increase the value/saleability you are manufacturing. ATF is pretty broad on manufacturing. If you refinish the stock on an M1 Garand they could very well consider that manufacturing.

If you are altering/ modifying customers firearms, you are a gunsmith.

Posted: 2/8/2020 11:54:18 AM EDT

[#4]

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Quoted:
When you attach a complete upper and lower it's manufacturing. I just asked this question during my 07 interview Thursday.

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Absolutely and has been the case for many years.

Posted: 2/8/2020 1:10:05 PM EDT

[#5]

And if I’m not mistaken, since that’s manufacturing, you need to pay ITAR too then?

Posted: 2/8/2020 1:13:32 PM EDT

[#6]

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And if I’m not mistaken, since that’s manufacturing, you need to pay ITAR too then?

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Not anymore.

https://gununiversity.com/firearms-moved-itar-commerce-ccl/?fbclid=IwAR3Dt9q3LMTPg4W44JGvlREG3BE24h85FD8zeBPeWQW80S2DWXhf9jzOFAs

Posted: 2/8/2020 1:30:37 PM EDT

[#7]

Additionally, if you "manufacture" a firearm, you have to put your markings on it. Regardless if other markings already exist.

Posted: 2/8/2020 4:49:44 PM EDT

[#8]

If you have doubt about what you will eventually do, then go with the FFL 07 to cover your ass. Make sure you understand ITAR, but a lot of things have changed in the last few months with the ITAR rules and how items regulated. And yes, you will have to mark with your information.

Posted: 2/8/2020 6:30:25 PM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:
When you attach a complete upper and lower it's manufacturing. I just asked this question during my 07 interview Thursday.

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If that were true everyone who F1 a gun would be manufacturing and not making.

It becomes manufacturing when you are in the business of doing it.

(10)The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

OP

Realize if you want to make SBRs, it is $200 each if you have an 01/03. So it gets expensive fast. So unless you want to knock off only 1-2 for personal use, you are better off getting a 07/02.

Posted: 2/8/2020 7:23:40 PM EDT

[#10]

I was leaning toward 07 anyway, just wasn’t sure I could make it financially make sense with ITAR. Since the rules are changing, i should be okay. I want to run this as a business, but I’m going to be honest with myself and realize I’m not going to get rich the first year (or ever). Just trying to help some guys get their hands on nfa stuff locally.

Posted: 2/8/2020 7:50:13 PM EDT

[#11]

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Quoted:
When you attach a complete upper and lower it's manufacturing. I just asked this question during my 07 interview Thursday.

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Dude, you don't even have your license yet and you're spouting off like you're an expert.

You have no clue!

Posted: 2/8/2020 9:26:37 PM EDT

[#12]

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Quoted:
Dude, you don't even have your license yet and you're spouting off like you're an expert.

You have no clue!

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Quoted:

Quoted:
When you attach a complete upper and lower it's manufacturing. I just asked this question during my 07 interview Thursday.

Dude, you don't even have your license yet and you're spouting off like you're an expert.

You have no clue!

I was answering the OPs question. The investigator told me the answer I posted verbatim. I don't know what your problem is, but chill out.

Posted: 2/8/2020 9:52:04 PM EDT

[#13]

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Quoted:
I was leaning toward 07 anyway, just wasn’t sure I could make it financially make sense with ITAR. Since the rules are changing, i should be okay. I want to run this as a business, but I’m going to be honest with myself and realize I’m not going to get rich the first year (or ever). Just trying to help some guys get their hands on nfa stuff locally.

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You can get an 07, and not do any ITAR related MFG. Since 07 is less $$$ than 01, and lets you do everything an 01 can do and more, it is hard to see why anyone gets an 01, unless it is a zoning issue. JMO.

Good luck.

Posted: 2/8/2020 10:03:00 PM EDT

[#14]

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Quoted:
I was answering the OPs question. The investigator told me the answer I posted verbatim. I don't know what your problem is, but chill out.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
When you attach a complete upper and lower it's manufacturing. I just asked this question during my 07 interview Thursday.

Dude, you don't even have your license yet and you're spouting off like you're an expert.

You have no clue!

I was answering the OPs question. The investigator told me the answer I posted verbatim. I don't know what your problem is, but chill out.

Yep, no clue.

First thing you need to learn is to never believe what the IOI "told you". Do your own research and find the answer in writing, black and white. I'm willing to bet you haven't even read the CFR yet!

Posted: 2/8/2020 10:07:38 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yep, no clue.

First thing you need to learn is to never believe what the IOI "told you". Do your own research and find the answer in writing, black and white. I'm willing to bet you haven't even read the CFR yet!

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
When you attach a complete upper and lower it's manufacturing. I just asked this question during my 07 interview Thursday.

Dude, you don't even have your license yet and you're spouting off like you're an expert.

You have no clue!

I was answering the OPs question. The investigator told me the answer I posted verbatim. I don't know what your problem is, but chill out.

Yep, no clue.

First thing you need to learn is to never believe what the IOI "told you". Do your own research and find the answer in writing, black and white. I'm willing to bet you haven't even read the CFR yet!

Wow

Posted: 2/10/2020 9:27:18 AM EDT

[#16]

10-4, good advice. I’m zoned where I can have a business out of my house, and manufacturing is allowed in my zoning as well, so I should be good to go.

Posted: 2/11/2020 8:07:04 PM EDT

[#17]

While it's geared toward Title II firearms there is an excellent writeup in the ATF NFA Handbook that describes the difference between gunsmithing and manufacturing. It is well worth reading.

Also bear in mind that the ATF's definition of "manufacturing" is derived from tax law and whether or not FAET is due, rather than what a laymen would consider a manufacturing activity. For example you as an FFL buy a complete upper and a complete lower. FAET has not been paid on the lower because it's only due on handguns and long guns. Once you push the two pins and make a rifle to sell, you have to collect and remit FAET to the feds, but as a Type 01 there is no mechanism available for you to do that.

Posted: 2/11/2020 9:14:05 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
While it's geared toward Title II firearms there is an excellent writeup in the ATF NFA Handbook that describes the difference between gunsmithing and manufacturing. It is well worth reading.

Also bear in mind that the ATF's definition of "manufacturing" is derived from tax law and whether or not FAET is due, rather than what a laymen would consider a manufacturing activity. For example you as an FFL buy a complete upper and a complete lower. FAET has not been paid on the lower because it's only due on handguns and long guns. Once you push the two pins and make a rifle to sell, you have to collect and remit FAET to the feds, but as a Type 01 there is no mechanism available for you to do that.

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So if you assemble a complete rifle by pinning together an upper and lower, they wont charge you for manufacturing without a license, they will charge you with tax evasion.

Posted: 2/11/2020 11:32:00 PM EDT

[#19]

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So if you assemble a complete rifle by pinning together an upper and lower, they wont charge you for manufacturing without a license, they will charge you with tax evasion.

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It's the ATF, you'll get charged with both.

Posted: 2/13/2020 10:00:28 AM EDT

[#20]

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Quoted:

You can get an 07, and not do any ITAR related MFG. Since 07 is less $$$ than 01, and lets you do everything an 01 can do and more, it is hard to see why anyone gets an 01, unless it is a zoning issue. JMO.

Good luck.

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Just to be clear...it is not cheaper to get the 07. Sure the intial fee is less than an 01, but 01s have the $90 renewal, and 07s don't.

Posted: 2/17/2020 5:22:00 PM EDT

[#21]

During my first interview with a nice lady from the ATF, she clearly explain to me that if I assemble parts and pieces that a customer brings me it is considered gunsmithing. If I install or assemble any pieces or parts that I sold the customer that it is considered manufacturing.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - When does it become “manufacturing”?

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