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Posted: 8/8/2022 5:43:03 AM EDT
[#1]
SNR 30+
EBI less than 1.0 Halo less than 1.0 Highest FOM possible. As clean of a tube as possible. That's about the most simplistic way to answer that question. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 7:21:21 AM EDT
[#2]
So with hand selecting, what you're asking a vendor to do is to not send you the first available tube that meets their minimum requirements for what you purchased. That means, the higher the tube specs you give them, the harder it is for the to find. It doesn't take too much before you've given vendors unrealistic specs that may take you years to track down.
To answer your question, it depends on what you're planning to do with the NV. Are you shooting with them or are you stargazing? For stargazing, EBI is super important. Here are realistic specs that I think you should hold any vendor accountable to when requesting a hand selection. This ensures you're not getting bottom of the bucket tubes, but at the same time ensures you can get tubes in a reasonable timely manner. Filmed: SNR: >26 EBI: <1.5 If you're buying Binos, request the Halo: Both tubes within 0.2 of each other Asking for a minimum SNR of 30 for filmed tubes is asking for the cream of the crop. You may be waiting a long long time, especially if you're asking for a maximum EBI of 1. Give your vendor reasonable specs and they can provide, or be prepared to wait. TNVC is good people, they will treat you right and they will help educate you if you have specific questions. They will tell you straight up how realistic your request is. It's important to know that specs do not tell the entire story of tube performance. Don't get too wrapped up in tube specs, educate yourself enough to know that the tubes you're getting aren't trash, buy what is in your budget, then move on. In the field when you're actually using them, you'll be focused on the task at hand and not your tube specs. If you care about tube performance too much, you should have saved a little longer and bought unfilmed. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 9:33:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So with hand selecting, what you're asking a vendor to do is to not send you the first available tube that meets their minimum requirements for what you purchased. That means, the higher the tube specs you give them, the harder it is for the to find. It doesn't take too much before you've given vendors unrealistic specs that may take you years to track down. To answer your question, it depends on what you're planning to do with the NV. Are you shooting with them or are you stargazing? For stargazing, EBI is super important. Here are realistic specs that I think you should hold any vendor accountable to when requesting a hand selection. This ensures you're not getting bottom of the bucket tubes, but at the same time ensures you can get tubes in a reasonable timely manner. Filmed: SNR: >26 EBI: <1.5 If you're buying Binos, request the Halo: Both tubes within 0.2 of each other Asking for a minimum SNR of 30 for filmed tubes is asking for the cream of the crop. You may be waiting a long long time, especially if you're asking for a maximum EBI of 1. Give your vendor reasonable specs and they can provide, or be prepared to wait. TNVC is good people, they will treat you right and they will help educate you if you have specific questions. They will tell you straight up how realistic your request is. It's important to know that specs do not tell the entire story of tube performance. Don't get too wrapped up in tube specs, educate yourself enough to know that the tubes you're getting aren't trash, buy what is in your budget, then move on. In the field when you're actually using them, you'll be focused on the task at hand and not your tube specs. If you care about tube performance too much, you should have saved a little longer and bought unfilmed. I appreciate the spirit of your message (as you are trying to help OP), but this is 2022. Someone recently did a spreadsheet of Steele’s 4th of July XLSH sale. There were 40-60 units on the spreadsheet. XLSH is the lowest Elbit tube grade. The median/average SNR was 31. I’ve seen 37+ SNR XLSH tubes. I ordered a 31snr & sub 1 ebi XLSH from a vendor recently and it was at my door in 4 days. Adding sub 1 ebi to +30snr is as common as common gets these days. Some vendors just buy the lowest of the low tubes and mark them up $1.5-$2k. They do it because people are still paying those prices and don’t know any better. If the vendor you are talking to doesn’t have 30+ SNR & sub 1 EBI in stock and ready to ship (in your desired tube grade/price range), at least call one of the many other reputable vendors and check around before settling. I am not a spec whore, and really don’t get wrapped up much in specs. Mainly because I bought night vision with intentions of using it, not gloating over a piece of paper with numbers on it. …However, if you are paying $3k+ for the lowest grade thin filmed unit you might as well not get raped on the specs also. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 9:54:06 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SNR 30+ EBI less than 1.0 Halo less than 1.0 Highest FOM possible. As clean of a tube as possible. That's about the most simplistic way to answer that question. This is fine advice, but I'd not be paying TNVC prices for that in a PVS-14 since it's available for less and quicker at other vendors. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 10:09:20 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: I'm a n00b so bear with me please. I ordered a thin filmed green PVS14 from TNVC and they seem like solid guys and a good company, however I'm seeing stuff about doing a hand select and making sure certain specs are met. Problem is...I don't know jack about this stuff or the specs. I have a GD thread about my wizard eyes but would like a bit more technical info here if possible. What should I be requesting? I paid $3000. @cheekibreeki Thanks boys..appreciate it I wrung my hands for weeks trying to decipher and decide on specs. After looking at a few websites I came up with a list, but in the end I wanted two things: to be able to see at night and not have any giant spots. I got a great tube from JRH and I honestly probably would have been fine with a $2000-2500 tube and not noticed the difference. If you play in the dark a lot and get exposed to all sorts of different tubes, I’m sure you could pick up two different tubes and guess which has the better specs. For me, I’d just be able to make sure turns on and I can see. Did you talk to anyone at TNVC about specs? The vendors are very helpful in that regard. Tell them what you plan to do, why you want it, and they can possibly steer you in a better direction. In my opinion, figuring out how to mount it is more important than finding a tube with perfect specs. If you can’t comfortably use it, you’re going to feel like you wasted the money and not want to use the tube. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 11:30:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is fine advice, but I'd not be paying TNVC prices for that in a PVS-14 since it's available for less and quicker at other vendors. Agree. I do own a TNVC PVS14 and I buy a bunch of stuff from them, but I'd be looking at other vendors as well. OP, as others have said if this is going to be used for shooting don't get too worried about specs. I have a TNVC XLSH and Filmless 18um binos. My buddies who saved money and run Photonis Echos can punch holes in targets quickly, same as I do. If TNVC is letting you hand pick, go with what was suggested above. High SNR, Low Halo and EBI. minimize spots. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 12:16:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate the spirit of your message (as you are trying to help OP), but this is 2022. Someone recently did a spreadsheet of Steele’s 4th of July XLSH sale. There were 40-60 units on the spreadsheet. XLSH is the lowest Elbit tube grade. The median/average SNR was 31. I’ve seen 37+ SNR XLSH tubes. I ordered a 31snr & sub 1 ebi XLSH from a vendor recently and it was at my door in 4 days. Adding sub 1 ebi to +30snr is as common as common gets these days. Some vendors just buy the lowest of the low tubes and mark them up $1.5-$2k. They do it because people are still paying those prices and don’t know any better. If the vendor you are talking to doesn’t have 30+ SNR & sub 1 EBI in stock and ready to ship (in your desired tube grade/price range), at least call one of the many other reputable vendors and check around before settling. I am not a spec whore, and really don’t get wrapped up much in specs. Mainly because I bought night vision with intentions of using it, not gloating over a piece of paper with numbers on it. …However, if you are paying $3k+ for the lowest grade thin filmed unit you might as well not get raped on the specs also. Interesting point. I developed a spreadsheet of some of what people posted for the XLSH tubes from the first NightGoggles release from a year ago. See data below. Assuming this data is correct and based off a sample size of 76 tubes, 32% of them exceeded a SNR of 30 and had EBI below 1.0. Granted these are XLSH tubes, so I believe you have a point when ordering Mil-Spec tubes 30 SNR and EBI lower than 1.0 should be more than reasonable. Thanks for correcting me.  |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 12:28:34 PM EDT
[#8]
NightGoggles is a sister company of TNVC. I'm assuming only some of those were handpicked units with the rest just being whatever the builder got. So like a spread of what XLSH can be, not necessarily picked through for good ones and then meh ones sold at a discount.
Go look what Steele has in stock ready to ship for XLSH tubes. Pick what you want based on full specs available with tube pics. Current Elbit XLSH tubes are really good, and very commonly well over 30+ SNR and 2300+ FOM. Just a cursory look at the current ready to ship from Steele shows a pvs14 with Elbit XLSH WPand the following specs: PVS-14 5726330 LP – 81 SNR – 32.6 EBI – 1.31 HALO – 0.72 FOM – 2640.6 And it's $3200 shipped. Meanwhile a dude here had gotten a pvs14 with l3 thin filmed gp from TNVC for a bit more money, long wait, and it was like 1600 fom. They made up for it with an awesome upgraded tube regardless. It's a really good time to buy NV, but you gotta shop around. Really hard to justify paying to wait months for a handpick when one probably as good is available and sometimes even cheaper. If I wanted to get really high end tubes for duals I'd consider TNVC just as others which allowed a handpick based on specs. But for run of the mill first pvs14 it shouldn't be so hard. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 12:39:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NightGoggles is a sister company of TNVC. I'm assuming only some of those were handpicked units with the rest just being whatever the builder got. So like a spread of what XLSH can be, not necessarily picked through for good ones and then meh ones sold at a discount. Go look what Steele has in stock ready to ship for XLSH tubes. Pick what you want based on full specs available with tube pics. Current Elbit XLSH tubes are really good, and very commonly well over 30+ SNR and 2300+ FOM. Just a cursory look at the current ready to ship from Steele shows a pvs14 with Elbit XLSH WPand the following specs: PVS-14 5726330 LP – 81 SNR – 32.6 EBI – 1.31 HALO – 0.72 FOM – 2640.6 And it's $3200 shipped. Meanwhile a dude here had gotten a pvs14 with l3 thin filmed gp from TNVC for a bit more money, long wait, and it was like 1700 fom. It's a really good time to buy NV, but you gotta shop around. Really hard to justify paying to wait months for a handpick when one probably as good as available and sometimes even cheaper. To be clear, NightGoggles does not allow hand picking for any of their XLSH products. Some of their customers really got lucky, while others did so so. I love that more and more vendors are actually listing what tube specs are before you purchase. I think that should be a standard service any online retailer should offer. That way you know exactly what you're getting. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 12:56:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love that more and more vendors are actually listing what tube specs are before you purchase. I think that should be a standard service any online retailer should offer. That way you know exactly what you're getting. This right here combined with shorter wait times is exactly why there are a ton of companies now building and selling NV units, and that practice largely is standard across all of them. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 1:48:32 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting point. I developed a spreadsheet of some of what people posted for the XLSH tubes from the first NightGoggles release from a year ago. See data below. Assuming this data is correct and based off a sample size of 76 tubes, 32% of them exceeded a SNR of 30 and had EBI below 1.0. Granted these are XLSH tubes, so I believe you have a point when ordering Mil-Spec tubes 30 SNR and EBI lower than 1.0 should be more than reasonable. Thanks for correcting me. https://i.imgur.com/5GRoLvR.jpg So why would these fall out? Blems? |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 2:44:11 PM EDT
[#12]
@AS556
Thanks for the order sir! I saw your other thread but I’ll just reply in here. Mondays are insanely busy so apologize for the delay. PM me your order# and if you'd like, your phone# and I'll give you a ring. We DO NOT buy low grade tubes and we DO NOT markup tubes. In fact, the reality is quite the opposite. Don't confuse vendors deciding to sell their products at their rock bottom lowest minimum margin price to mean that we are marking up our pricing. Our TNVC-in house PVS-14 pricing has remained largely unchanged for a very long time. The lowest grade tubes are commercial spec tubes such as the XLSH. These are tubes that do not meet requirements to be assigned a higher "MIL-SPEC" grade and Elbit sells them for less than say a YH tube. I believe we are the only vendor, or one of very few, who does not markup the "good" XLSH tubes or "mark up" our pricing based on specs, no matter if it is PVS-14-XLSH or a L3H GPNVG. I am not saying that vendors who do this are wrong but rather just pointing out that the accusations of us “marking up” night vision is not factually correct. In fact, our pricing for TNVC-built PVS-14 systems has largely remained the same for a very long time and we do not charge for custom spec requests. TNVC does not use these tubes but we occasionally sell XLSH tubes through our sister company Night Goggles. We do not offer spec requests for XLSH and we DO NOT charge extra for the “better” ones. We DO offer spec requests for no extra charge for our TNVC in-house systems using YH or 18UM tubes. Our lead times exist due to demand for TNVC products from our extensive dealer network, LE/MIL orders, and retail customers. It is simply a numbers game and our suppliers cannot keep up with our demand. This is not an attempt at bragging. Just info. As for lead times, we cannot always keep the website updated with an “exact” ETA, so we may give a longer than actual ETA in some cases. Current ETA for a PVS-14 with L3H filmed GP is about 4-8 weeks. If anybody has any questions at all - call us and we'll shoot you straight. We have a good number of staff (myself included) available by phone. This is one of our greatest strengths as it allows us to spend as much time as necessary assisting folks, and we have a good mix of staff with MIL, LE, & Hunting backgrounds. Same goes for any of ya'll who seem to not like us for whatever reason. A lot of the animosity I've personally experienced is due to simple misunderstandings due to how the internet works and the telephone game. I have spoken to a large number of ARFCOM folks and we really love supporting the ARFCOM community. Feel free to reach out to me anytime. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 3:23:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @AS556 Thanks for the order sir! I saw your other thread but I’ll just reply in here. Mondays are insanely busy so apologize for the delay. PM me your order# and if you'd like, your phone# and I'll give you a ring. Those making comments about how we run our business, order & sell tubes, policies, etc., please stop because you are spreading BS. We DO NOT buy the “lowest of the low” and we DO NOT markup tubes. In fact, the reality is quite the opposite. Don't confuse vendors deciding to sell their products at their rock bottom lowest minimum margin price to mean that we are marking up our pricing. Our TNVC-in house PVS-14 pricing has remained largely unchanged for a very long time. The lowest grade tubes are commercial spec tubes such as the XLSH. These are tubes that do not meet requirements to be assigned a higher "MIL-SPEC" grade and Elbit sells them for less than say a YH tube. I believe we are the only vendor, or one of very few, who does not markup the "good" XLSH tubes or "mark up" our pricing based on specs, no matter if it is PVS-14-XLSH or a L3H GPNVG. I am not saying that vendors who do this are wrong but rather just pointing out that the accusations of us “marking up” night vision is not factually correct. In fact, our pricing for TNVC-built PVS-14 systems has largely remained the same for a very long time and we do not charge for custom spec requests. TNVC does not use these tubes but we occasionally sell XLSH tubes through our sister company Night Goggles. We do not offer spec requests for XLSH and we DO NOT charge extra for the “better” ones. We DO offer spec requests for no extra charge for our TNVC in-house systems using YH or 18UM tubes. Our lead times exist due to demand for TNVC products from our extensive dealer network, LE/MIL orders, and retail customers. It is simply a numbers game and our suppliers cannot keep up with our demand. This is not an attempt at bragging. Just info. As for lead times, we cannot always keep the website updated with an “exact” ETA, so we may give a longer than actual ETA in some cases. Current ETA for a PVS-14 with L3H filmed GP is about 4-8 weeks. If anybody has any questions at all - call us and we'll shoot you straight. We have a good number of staff (myself included) available by phone. This is one of our greatest strengths as it allows us to spend as much time as necessary assisting folks, and we have a good mix of staff with MIL, LE, & Hunting backgrounds. Same goes for any of ya'll who seem to not like us for whatever reason. A lot of the animosity I've personally experienced is due to simple misunderstandings due to how the internet works and the telephone game. I have spoken to a large number of ARFCOM folks and we really love supporting the ARFCOM community. Feel free to reach out to me anytime. PM sent! Thanks Will |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 3:43:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @AS556 Thanks for the order sir! I saw your other thread but I’ll just reply in here. Mondays are insanely busy so apologize for the delay. PM me your order# and if you'd like, your phone# and I'll give you a ring. Those making comments about how we run our business, order & sell tubes, policies, etc., please stop because you are spreading BS. We DO NOT buy the “lowest of the low” and we DO NOT markup tubes. In fact, the reality is quite the opposite. Don't confuse vendors deciding to sell their products at their rock bottom lowest minimum margin price to mean that we are marking up our pricing. Our TNVC-in house PVS-14 pricing has remained largely unchanged for a very long time. The lowest grade tubes are commercial spec tubes such as the XLSH. These are tubes that do not meet requirements to be assigned a higher "MIL-SPEC" grade and Elbit sells them for less than say a YH tube. I believe we are the only vendor, or one of very few, who does not markup the "good" XLSH tubes or "mark up" our pricing based on specs, no matter if it is PVS-14-XLSH or a L3H GPNVG. I am not saying that vendors who do this are wrong but rather just pointing out that the accusations of us “marking up” night vision is not factually correct. In fact, our pricing for TNVC-built PVS-14 systems has largely remained the same for a very long time and we do not charge for custom spec requests. TNVC does not use these tubes but we occasionally sell XLSH tubes through our sister company Night Goggles. We do not offer spec requests for XLSH and we DO NOT charge extra for the “better” ones. We DO offer spec requests for no extra charge for our TNVC in-house systems using YH or 18UM tubes. Our lead times exist due to demand for TNVC products from our extensive dealer network, LE/MIL orders, and retail customers. It is simply a numbers game and our suppliers cannot keep up with our demand. This is not an attempt at bragging. Just info. As for lead times, we cannot always keep the website updated with an “exact” ETA, so we may give a longer than actual ETA in some cases. Current ETA for a PVS-14 with L3H filmed GP is about 4-8 weeks. If anybody has any questions at all - call us and we'll shoot you straight. We have a good number of staff (myself included) available by phone. This is one of our greatest strengths as it allows us to spend as much time as necessary assisting folks, and we have a good mix of staff with MIL, LE, & Hunting backgrounds. Same goes for any of ya'll who seem to not like us for whatever reason. A lot of the animosity I've personally experienced is due to simple misunderstandings due to how the internet works and the telephone game. I have spoken to a large number of ARFCOM folks and we really love supporting the ARFCOM community. Feel free to reach out to me anytime. You quoted my post, yet I never once mentioned a name of any vendor. I didn’t even insinuate a particular vendor at all. The title of this post has nothing to do with TNVC. I placed an order from you guys a few weeks ago. I appreciate that you give paying members a discount on your website. Don’t wear the shoe if it doesn’t fit |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 4:44:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You quoted my post, yet I never once mentioned a name of any vendor. I didn’t even insinuate a particular vendor at all. The title of this post has nothing to do with TNVC. I placed an order from you guys a few weeks ago. I appreciate that you give paying members a discount on your website. Don’t wear the shoe if it doesn’t fit Where is your post quoted? Just got off phone with Will. Great convo, learned a ton. Looks like lead times are in 4-8 weeks frame. Definitely happy with the purchase and on the off chance there's an issue am confident they will stand by the product. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 6:33:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where is your post quoted? Just got off phone with Will. Great convo, learned a ton. Looks like lead times are in 4-8 weeks frame. Definitely happy with the purchase and on the off chance there's an issue am confident they will stand by the product. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You quoted my post, yet I never once mentioned a name of any vendor. I didn’t even insinuate a particular vendor at all. The title of this post has nothing to do with TNVC. I placed an order from you guys a few weeks ago. I appreciate that you give paying members a discount on your website. Don’t wear the shoe if it doesn’t fit Where is your post quoted? Just got off phone with Will. Great convo, learned a ton. Looks like lead times are in 4-8 weeks frame. Definitely happy with the purchase and on the off chance there's an issue am confident they will stand by the product. In bold Doesn’t really matter however. Will is good people, and TNVC has a great reputation for a reason. There’s no doubt that they will take care of you, as they have done the same for countless others. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 9:59:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In bold Doesn’t really matter however. Will is good people, and TNVC has a great reputation for a reason. There’s no doubt that they will take care of you, as they have done the same for countless others. I removed that quote from above since I know you weren’t directing that at us. Appreciate you sir  |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 2:45:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Any opinions on the Norotos RHNO 2 mount?
Also looking at this https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/WTS-Norotos-AKA2-HMA-Kit/172-2256380/ |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 3:17:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any opinions on the Norotos RHNO 2 mount? Also looking at this https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/WTS-Norotos-AKA2-HMA-Kit/172-2256380/ The Rhino 2 is a good started mount from everything I’ve seen. The others are better as they allow more adjustability, but for half the price it’s a good mount. I picked up a LoSto for my helmet and like it so far. Tilt and height adjustment, everything locks in place after adjustment, and it comes with the bayonet and dovetail adapters. I also have the FTO mount. I got a Wilcox G24 with the helmet I just got and while it is comparable to my LoSto, I dislike that it is not FTO. I know that having to use a button to flip the mount up and down would prevent somehow accidentally flipping it up, but I much prefer the ease of just moving the mount up and down. The only downside is my LoSto is not tan. FDE is life. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 11:22:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Rhino 2 is a good started mount from everything I’ve seen. The others are better as they allow more adjustability, but for half the price it’s a good mount. I picked up a LoSto for my helmet and like it so far. Tilt and height adjustment, everything locks in place after adjustment, and it comes with the bayonet and dovetail adapters. I also have the FTO mount. I got a Wilcox G24 with the helmet I just got and while it is comparable to my LoSto, I dislike that it is not FTO. I know that having to use a button to flip the mount up and down would prevent somehow accidentally flipping it up, but I much prefer the ease of just moving the mount up and down. The only downside is my LoSto is not tan. FDE is life. I ended up getting the AKA2 kit from the EE I listed above. It's all FDE 
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Posted: 8/10/2022 12:51:17 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: I'm a n00b so bear with me please. I ordered a thin filmed green PVS14 from TNVC and they seem like solid guys and a good company, however I'm seeing stuff about doing a hand select and making sure certain specs are met. Problem is...I don't know jack about this stuff or the specs. I have a GD thread about my wizard eyes but would like a bit more technical info here if possible. What should I be requesting? I paid $3000. @cheekibreeki Thanks boys..appreciate it I own a milspec elbit and a xlsh elbit. My advice is to prioritize SNR and Halo. Sure its nice to have 36+snr but anything above 30snr is really good. I would also suggest a .6 halo or less if you can find it. 64lpm or above and ebi of less than 2 will be fine. FOM is irrelevant in my opinion. I also feel photocathode sensitivity should be considered as well but i cannot say if any dealers actually list that spec before purchase but it might be the most important for your intended use. Im going to suggest a 2200+ for photocatode sensitivity. Higher is better at seeing in the darkest conditions. I dont know what your intended use will be but my milspec 2188 fom out preforms my xlsh 2622 fom in seeing in the darkest environments. Driving on a mountain side looking into the valley of lights the xlsh looks better with its lower halo. Walking the dog on a moonless night at the park they both work just fine. On paper just talking about fom, ebi, halo, resolution, everyone would choose to use my xlsh. But the YH beats it overall even though the specs people mention are all better on the cheaper tube. Unfortunately for first time buyers  Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is You have to see it for yourself - matrix1999 |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 8:40:39 PM EDT
[#22]
OP, be sure to get some pics in here or the helmet rig thread. If you don't, we riot.
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Posted: 8/11/2022 10:17:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, be sure to get some pics in here or the helmet rig thread. If you don't, we riot. I will! I just have a poors ballistic helmet from Kota. I'll probably end up with an Ops Core or TW bump though. I did upgrade my TNVC order to a Multicam unfilmed WP PVS14 |
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