User Panel
[#1]
You have a poor attitude and could have simply asked a polite question and avoided all drama. Even the title of your thread implied that what we know to be true was wrong.
I am glad you finally came around to the right answer even if it took the long road. I’ve asked a million questions on here and the wealth of knowledge always astounds me. It’s up to you how the interaction starts and ends. |
|
[#2]
Quoted:
I want to see the exact title number of the letter or the law, because we have swapping uppers on the registered lower for years now. You don't register the upper, you register the lower and that is what they issue the stamp on. View Quote |
|
[#3]
Quoted: ~snip....... I know one thing for sure: If the ATF tells you something you didn't know about an NFA regulation and if you ask about/share what they told you in this forum you will get nothing but grief over it. View Quote You state that is is a requirement, nope, it is what they would like for you to do. NOT write letters or call 10x. An agent is supposed to uphold the WRITTEN LAW, an (bureaucrat) agent will interpret the WL as per their own personal experience/political leanings. Often leading them (their erroneous interpretation) to become mistakenly taken as verboten, and next thing you know, we get hammered. PLEASE, listen to the older gents here, a lot of knowledge to be sucked up if you are of a mind to. Oh, you may want to grow some thicker skin for the peanut crowd that always has to jeer. No offense intended. |
|
[#4]
|
|
[#6]
Quoted:
Let’s flip that. Can you provide the title or letter of the law that says changing calibers or barrel lengths on an approved SBR is legal without updating the documentation? The fact that people have been doing it for years carries no legal weight. Fact is, someone submitted an application to make an SBR that included barrel length and caliber, and that specific configuration was approved. Where does it say anyone can change their approved SBR around? View Quote No...you can't. Because that's not how the law works. There is no flip-side to this situation. Everything which is not forbidden is allowed. |
|
[#7]
Quoted: Let’s flip that. Can you provide the title or letter of the law that says changing calibers or barrel lengths on an approved SBR is legal without updating the documentation? The fact that people have been doing it for years carries no legal weight. Fact is, someone submitted an application to make an SBR that included barrel length and caliber, and that specific configuration was approved. Where does it say anyone can change their approved SBR around? View Quote The upper is not a regulated item and is not a serialized part, some seem to forget the registry is for tax purposes and each new owner of a registered gun must pay that $200 tax except in certain well defined situations. It is quite obvious, the BATF is not keeping up on its training of newer agents because they have let this particular situation become SOP in the office, but just because it has, does not change that fact it is not Required It has already been mentioned in this thread about selling it needing to be in the original configuration or the record update needs to be done before the sale. |
|
[#8]
Too thin skinned I am and thanks again to the experienced old hats in here who chimed in. From what I gathered from our conversation the Station Chief will most likely update the staff on the notice not being required, but recommended.
|
|
[#9]
Quoted: SCOTUS and Revenue Rulings dating back to before most NFA owners were born. Always comedy gold when folks think NFA scenarios are new and have not been adjudicated decades ago. View Quote |
|
[#10]
Quoted:
Can you provide the title or letter of the law that says I can shoot FMJ and JHP ammo through my .45 pistol? Or the one that says I can shoot 115gr and 147gr ammo through my 9mm? Or .223 and 5.56 ammo through my AR-15? Or that I can shoot it either left-handed or right-handed? No...you can't. Because that's not how the law works. There is no flip-side to this situation. Everything which is not forbidden is allowed. View Quote |
|
[#11]
Quoted: How is that? So I should never ask them for instruction or clarification, even though they gave me correct guidance this time? View Quote The ATF's answers are a bag of bull manure. If you want answers, read the regulations. The regulations are what they are bound by. If you can't read the regulations and come to an understanding of what they can and cannot do, hire a lawyer. But do not, for your own sanity, rely upon the opinion of some ATF bureaucrat to give you a straight answer because the ATF itself has painted itself into a corner. They can't even keep the MG registry, which has been closed since 86 straight because of their shenanigans. That has been proven, multiple times, by NOLO. Government can only do what is written in their regulations. How it goes is this: When you submit your SBR papers, you must accurately describe the weapon you are going to make once the stamp is approved. Then you MUST make that configuration. If you want to be safe, keep that configuration available....hell...even keep it as the default configuration (as in, that's how you store the firearm). But, if you put on another upper, you have not changed any part that is considered a firearm. You are not required to notify them of that change because the tax is already paid. The onus to keep accurate records is on the government, not you. Ergo, they are going to try to get as much info from you as they can. But you are under no obligation to assist them, because you have not broken the regulations. Show me in the regulations where changing an upper on an approved SBR while retaining the original configuration is not permitted and I'll send you a pmag. Asking for some ATF dolt's opinion (who has ulterior motivations than merely looking at what the regs say) is not the answer, everyone has an opinion. The regulations are the only facts. Everything else is desire, conjecture, and political double-speak. (of which the ATF is known for) |
|
[#12]
Quoted:
A ridiculous apple and oranges comparison as what bullet weight and style aren’t regulated by law. SBRs are. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Can you provide the title or letter of the law that says I can shoot FMJ and JHP ammo through my .45 pistol? Or the one that says I can shoot 115gr and 147gr ammo through my 9mm? Or .223 and 5.56 ammo through my AR-15? Or that I can shoot it either left-handed or right-handed? No...you can't. Because that's not how the law works. There is no flip-side to this situation. Everything which is not forbidden is allowed. Law.....you don't get the point of it. And you're wrong. Certain bullet "styles" ARE regulated. |
|
[#14]
Quoted:
This whole thread is a joke and a waste of our time. Bad info all around, and yes that includes what came from the ATF. There is no requirement to notify when swapping uppers. There is no requirement to have records updated for other calibers. There is no requirement to be able to return to original specs. I'm very tempted to just move it to GD...it's that ridiculous. View Quote |
|
[#15]
Quoted:
This, I’ll also add there is no requirement to notify BATFE of IN-STATE moves. Maybe this should be stickied to prevent this kind of thread in the future, View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
This whole thread is a joke and a waste of our time. Bad info all around, and yes that includes what came from the ATF. There is no requirement to notify when swapping uppers. There is no requirement to have records updated for other calibers. There is no requirement to be able to return to original specs. I'm very tempted to just move it to GD...it's that ridiculous. |
|
[#16]
|
|
[#17]
This came up last year for me, as well.
I had a few SBRs that I originally filed Form 1s for a few years back detailing that they had 10.5 inch barrels. Since originally filing, I put 11.5 inch uppers on them and all was well. Last year, I filled out some 5320.20s to take the SBRs into another state. On the Form 20, I put that the SBRs had 11.5 inch barrels. The Form 20 came back disapproved and there was a note that I needed to update the NFRTR if I wanted to get a Form 20 approved for the SBRs. I could have filled out and signed a new Form 20 stating that the rifles had 10.5 inch barrels when they really had 11.5 inch barrels, but would that be wise? There might not be a regulation that requires you to notify them if you change barrel length, but if they’re disapproving requests based on info about barrel length not matching up with what they have on file from the original paperwork, then can you really do everything you want with the SBR? |
|
[#18]
We covered this case up thread. If you actually changed the configuration and no longer have the same barrel length then any action requiring official scrutiny and approval it is in your interest to correct the record so that your paperwork is quickly approved AND you are not perjuring yourself on an official tax affidavit. Notice they didn't prosecute you for the 1" difference in barrel length, they simply bounced your form requiring you to provide additional documentational exposure. Assuming you had the original barrel length you could bring that along in your travels or not, as possession of an SBR in an undocumented configuration is not a crime.
|
|
[#19]
Quoted:
There might not be a regulation that requires you to notify them if you change barrel length, but if they’re disapproving requests based on info about barrel length not matching up with what they have on file from the original paperwork, then can you really do everything you want with the SBR? View Quote But I can show you approved 5320.20 forms from the last several years in a row, where the caliber and/or length doesn't match the Form 1...and they've always been approved without any notification sent in. |
|
[#20]
Quoted:
If there was any consistency, I might agree. But I can show you approved 5320.20 forms from the last several years in a row, where the caliber and/or length doesn't match the Form 1...and they've always been approved without any notification sent in. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
There might not be a regulation that requires you to notify them if you change barrel length, but if they’re disapproving requests based on info about barrel length not matching up with what they have on file from the original paperwork, then can you really do everything you want with the SBR? But I can show you approved 5320.20 forms from the last several years in a row, where the caliber and/or length doesn't match the Form 1...and they've always been approved without any notification sent in. |
|
[#21]
Quoted:
Is there a chance they now have better access and are able to easily look up that info now compared to the past? View Quote I have two that have been approved every time, and have never once been submitted with specs that matched the F1. I fully understand not everybody has the experience I have, but I'm not having the same experience some of them have. For that matter, I've had mine approved for several years in a row using a form I created that holds 11 firearms. Yet in between my approvals, I've had others get disapproved using the exact same form and the examiner told them they weren't accepting modified forms. That's why I submitted mine earlier this year in case I needed to redo them. |
|
[#23]
Quoted:
If there was any consistency, I might agree. But I can show you approved 5320.20 forms from the last several years in a row, where the caliber and/or length doesn't match the Form 1...and they've always been approved without any notification sent in. View Quote |
|
[#24]
Quoted:
Final word on this: I spoke with a qualified attorney AND the station chief at the BATF main branch. The record update procedure was added to SOP after instances of transfers being denied when records did not match the new configuration and due to confiscations of NFA items for the same reason. When the regulations were written in the late 60's multiple configurations were not anticipated so there is NO requirement in the regulations to send an update notice. It is recommended, not required. Station chief gave me examples of why it should be done VOLUNTARILY: Accident or pulled over by police may result in confiscation if the paperwork is not present or doesn't match the configuration. Owner makes a configuration change and neglects to update the record then years later sells the NFA item, the Form to transfer WILL be denied until the record is corrected. Another prime example of not required but strongly recommended is 5320 out of state travel. This one was a surprise since I thought this WAS a requirement. No regulation requirement to send in the form but same scenario applies if pulled over or in an accident etc. where the officer asks to see paperwork in the other state. Don't HAVE to file the 5320 either, but stupid not to do so. (Getting approval from ATF before moving an SBR, SBS, MG or Destructive Device to another State is required. The law that requires it is 18 USC 922(a)(4) and the regulation is 27 CFR 478.28. Yet you don’t have to use the Form, you can write ATF a letter asking for their approval to move an NFA weapon to another State. I asked why three reps in his office told me the added configuration notice was a requirement. He said over the years it has become SOP but the line between required and strongly suggested has become blurred. You guys who said there is no requirement in the regulations were correct and you guys who mentioned the need for the update for transfers were right too. Bottom line: No REQUIREMENT to update the record for added/changed configurations and they haven't changed the regulations to reflect a need to update the record. Btw you WILL get a BATF APPROVED stamped copy of your letter back to put in your range bag in case of any questions. I'm sending the update letter and see plenty of reason to do so and no reason not to. Thanks to everyone who posted positive/helpful commentary. View Quote I filed for a handful of suppressors before 41f kicked in; by the time they were approved, I had changed my mind on what I wanted to suppress. I files a config change for one (before I started construction), and received a notification that they received it - but they did NOT sent an updated approved stamped copy, and this was for a permanent change. The joy of dealing with a gov org that has no documented rules, but just makes shit up as they go... |
|
[#26]
|
|
[#27]
So If I drive around with my SBR lower with no upper attached, am I dividing by zero?
|
|
[#28]
Quoted:
So If I drive around with my SBR lower with no upper attached, am I dividing by zero? View Quote If you have any <16" uppers in the same vehicle, and no AR pistol lower, then technically you're still in "constructive possession" of a Title II SBR (which is fine since it's lawfully registered). |
|
[#29]
Quoted:
This came up last year for me, as well. I had a few SBRs that I originally filed Form 1s for a few years back detailing that they had 10.5 inch barrels. Since originally filing, I put 11.5 inch uppers on them and all was well. Last year, I filled out some 5320.20s to take the SBRs into another state. On the Form 20, I put that the SBRs had 11.5 inch barrels. The Form 20 came back disapproved and there was a note that I needed to update the NFRTR if I wanted to get a Form 20 approved for the SBRs. I could have filled out and signed a new Form 20 stating that the rifles had 10.5 inch barrels when they really had 11.5 inch barrels, but would that be wise? There might not be a regulation that requires you to notify them if you change barrel length, but if they’re disapproving requests based on info about barrel length not matching up with what they have on file from the original paperwork, then can you really do everything you want with the SBR? View Quote There is absolutely no consistency. |
|
[#30]
DO YOU STILL HAVE THE ORIGINAL CALIBER UPPER?
YES...... slap whatever you want on it....as long as you can change it back. NO.... write and notify ATF. |
|
[#31]
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.