EDIT:  I thought it was my mistake but it looks like the overwhelming take from members is that the BATF gave me bad info.   ATF station manager/chief:  The config update is NOT a requirement it is a recommendation.  If you don't update the record and file for a NFA transfer not matching the original record it will be rejected.  You will have to update it to get the transfer approved.  If you are pulled over or in an accident the acknowledgement letter you get back from the ATF is stamped and serves to cover your additional configurations if there is any question.

Adding/changing configuration on an SBR

I have .300 BLK and recently added 5.56 upper for my Spikes Compressor ST15.  My dealer didn't have any question that I would be ok to add the 5.56 upper and be covered by my SBR Form 4 for the lower.  Surprise!  Nope.

Getting ready to add a 9mm upper for a quick convert setup and the question came up about the classification of my SBR registered lower.  My Form 4 specifies .30 Cal.  I called BATF and the nice lady told me they can't enter multiple calibers on the Form 4.  She said I need to send them a signed letter (noting serial number and trust or reg. name) requesting that the added configuration details (caliber/barrel length/overall length) be added to my records before I use the other uppers on my lower.  She said I would probably not get a reply unless I email the letter but to call after 30 days or so to be sure it was entered into my record.

This info is new to but me and best to post for anyone else who assumes the registered lower covers all caliber uppers.  I thought I had the procedure down pat but learned today I didn't.  Geez the fiery hoops they make us jump through.   At least it's just a notification and doesn't require a new form 4 submission.

Mail:
BATF NFA Division
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, WV 25405

Email:
[email protected]

Its my understanding that unless you are making a permanent change you can slap other SBR uppers on your registered lower. No notification or paperwork required. I'd let a few others chime in here too and confirm whether this is true or not.

As long as you still own the configuration that it was registered in, there is no need to notify the ATF of anything when swapping uppers.

She may be nice but she is also wrong. There is nothing in law, regulation or historical practice which supports a requirement for notification of a non-permanent configuration change. In the AR world there are few permanent configuration changes -- welding a 9mm mag adaptor into a lower SBRed with a 223 caliber would be an example that comes to mind.

I've never heard that the NFA registry allows for multiple configurations to be listed for a single registered item, which I think she was implying would happen. If you did what she suggested then I think the change would be entered and the prior details discarded, which, by her explanation, would mean you need another letter to put your first upper back on.

That was my understanding too.  Until today anyway.  Scenario:  You are out with one of your uppers that doesn't match the description on your Form 4, ATF agent (I know, remote possibility) asks to see paperwork.  I can see where having a different caliber, barrel length or OAL than what is on the form could trip us up here.  As much from lack of understanding on the part of the field agent than anything else.

I spoke with 2 reps both said the same thing:  They will check your record on their end to make sure the specs match what is on the form.  I called my dealer and he also thought you could pop on whichever upper you chose.  He was a surprised as I was that the ATF reps noted that notification of other configurations is required.  Rare to get checked in the field but I am calling back again to speak to a specialist.

Both of the reps I spoke with were wrong?  Could be I suppose.  They both said the letter serves to ADD additional configurations for the registered item.  I'm calling back to clarify that this is an upper swap and not a permanent change but I'm pretty sure they knew exactly what I was talking about.  Apparently the registry does allow for multiple configurations.   A specialist should be able to clarify if I can get one on the phone.  One thing for sure, if called into question I can't reference this forum or any opinions here for my defense, I have to go by what BATF says.

If there is disagreement at the BATF I'll submit a request for an opinion in writing.

This is the way I have always understood it...

But,Everytime you talk to someone at the ATF, you're likely to get a different answer.

They have so many stupid laws or whatever you want to call them, they can't keep them straight themselves...

It'd be funny if a "Gun writer" (like for a Gun Magazine, or any I guess)  would take the time to ask like 10 different ATF agents the same 5-6 questions, record those and compare them and with what if anything can be found on the ATF's  site, then write an article on the differences...

Ok, 3rd rep says the same thing: Must send a letter detailing another configuration (even if temporary) of registered lower.  Waiting on a specialist to call me back.  If they can cite text in the regulations confirming notification requirements I'll post it.

They explained that you don't have to notify when swapping uppers, you just have to let them know you have multiple configurations for the same registered lower.  Sounds reasonable but I'm interested to see if it is indeed in there somewhere in black and white.

I'm sending the letter in any case.  Belt and suspenders.

Please keep us posted on this OP. I have a .223 SBR and want to 300bk it but never actually knew the exact law so I never did anything with the 300bk.

Things must be slowing down at NFA Branch.  I'm surprised they didn't ask for a TDP and the rating and location of your safe.

Do whatever makes you feel comfortable.  It's like a leprechaun repeller in the yard.  I always put holy water on my Form 4s and haven't seen a leprechaun yet.

Which isn't to say public servants can't turn into vampires or leprechauns, but with all the flouride in the water, I've stopped worrying about that.

Just trying to provide comic relief as we whistle past the graveyard of Constitutionally limited government.

Maybe you should reconsider the leprechaun repellent.
Attached File

I want to see the exact title number of the letter or the law, because we have swapping uppers on the registered lower for years now.

You don't register the upper, you register the lower and that is what they issue the stamp on.

They all said the lower is registered in a specific cal/bbl/oal configuration and if you add an additional configuration to the lower you have to let them know.  I'll get some kind of answer from the specialist by tomorrow perhaps.

You can call 10 times and you will get 10 different answers. You can meet at their field office and 5 agents will come up with yet 5 different answers. You can have an inspection (dealer) and the agent that shows up, will give you a different answers than the other 15. Rinse, repeat. When in doubt, get it in writing - good luck with that -.

As always, ymmv.

ETA: read you called 3 times and got the same answers. They are getting more organized. Meaning, meetings so they can all sound "correct". Request the information in writing.

The Form 1 and Form 4 are tax forms, and the only forms currently and historically required by law for registration and proof of tax paid.  Unless they assert you have created an untaxed firearm from a configuration change, you have no need for further documentation or legal obligation to provide.  They have a legal obligation to maintain an accurate registry for tax purposes.  Current regulations oblige you to provide only information within the scope of the approved forms.

Their answers to your questions only feeds their bureaucratic need to feed your insecurity.   Any such data they collect for SBRs is fluid and of no value as regards the tax record accuracy and purpose of the registry and in fact is more trouble than it's worth to anyone experienced with inventory control and tracking.  For other non-configurable NFA items this hasn't been the case.

They can tell you anything they want.  It holds no legal weight in defense against prosecution, but if it makes you feel better you can always write unnecessary letters for things like in state moves, length to some higher degree of precision, caliber changes, etc.

As far as deflecting initial inquiries, a copy of the approved, signed forms has for decades been sufficient for anyone not involved in suspected felonies.  So either this is changing and you are the vanguard, or more likely this is a case of bureaucratic bloviation.  I'll be following this to see what develops.

ETA:  The fact that you can convert an SBR to Title 1 configuration with no notification and can even take the Title 1 configuration into non-NFA states makes this even more silly.

The problem is, you are going to keep getting different answers, you have found two that said this, ask 10 and you will get 10 answers, I am in my own situation with the BATF now on transfering a gun that I manufactured, they told me I have to list it one way on the 4473 and I know for a fact that is not true, I just went through my compliance visit and the agent that did it, did not know what the fuck he was talking about.

The agents at the BATF is a perfect example of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing.

BTW, this isn't germane to your current concern (whether you have to notify in writing before re-configuring an SBR), but the advice you received is good advice under certain circumstances.  If you wanted to transfer your SBR in a configuration other than as registered, you would need an accurate description in the NFRTR.  Otherwise you'd either be lying on a tax Form, which is a crime, or your new accurate Transfer Form would be bounced against the old NFTR description.

Last 2 replies are spot-on, and KalmanPhilter's transfer scenarios are the only time this matters.
So if you're ever going to transfer it, retain an option to config it as registered during the sale/transfer, or send your update letter in advance of the sale. That's it. It's that simple.

I see no reason to move to GD, people need to realize there are new agents both in the field as well as in the office and bad information is getting passed on.  This type of bullshit happens every single time they add new agents.  That said, it is productive conversation to have.

Guess what they told me today is news to just about everyone, including me.  Documentation will settle it, if they have any.

Lmao see ya in GD...

I don't see why my sharing what I was told by the BATF is not being taken seriously by some in here.  One member throwing shade has been here only 2 months.  Are we to disregard/ignore what we are told by the BATF regarding NFA items and just do what this forum thinks is correct?  Should I not follow up and request documentation on requirements noted by 3 different agents of the ATF?

It is being taken seriously.  I gave you serious points to consider.  So have others. But it seems you are an experiential learner.  That's OK, it's your time and your burden.

The problem is the law as practiced is a weird combo of written law and what is experienced through case law.   The law doesn't require what you have been told, as written.  And no one here has pointed to or is aware of any case  supporting that interpretation.  The Director could require what you have been told, but it would need to be promulgated through the regulations, which it hasn't.

It isn't illegal to reconfigure a short barrelled rifle with an approved tax stamp to another caliber or length as long as you don't create an untaxed item in the process.  Which for an AR with a serialized lower isn't an issue. As long as your original description was accurate as a legal affidavit when you submitted it, then you have complied with law. Under your scenario they could charge you, which they haven't.  They aren't being nice, they are being duplicitous.

Given all the braced pistols sprouting up like mushrooms, if you are worried about running into an overzealous tax agent comparing your approved form to the additional configuration just put it on a pistol lower and enjoy until you get a satisfactory mother-may-I response. But as as been said here, that could be a long wait, and has no legal standing in the general case either way. ETA: Tech Branch opinion letters are written in a peculiar formal way and often appear intended to obscure clarity and provide non-answers. It's like listening to testimony before a Congressional panel.

And you could be the harbinger of a change, but over the decades these types of concerns have come and gone as fables. When changes are published in the Federal register, going forward it could be a concern.

I know most in here take what I was told as something to be confirmed or debunked but it seems a couple folks think it is a joke and funny.  I don't.

and if they don't have any, they'll "create" some. This is how more restrictive and unnecessary stuff happens. Let it be.

Well there is that concern too, which is one unspoken reason old timers try to damp down such behaviors. The law tells you what you can't do.  The bureaucrats don't need to, or have the authority to, give you permission to do what is legal.  But they may not ignore your pleas for guidance.

So as to the social dynamic, I don't think anyone here wants to see this moved to GD.   The OP has been given good advice.  If it isn't taken that sort of defeats the purpose of the forum.  Worse, somebody else more amenable to guidance comes along and is swayed by the 'new' concern and decides to write a mother-may-I letter too.  Next thing you know the bureaucrats see a rising tide of confusion that leads them to their calling of tightening the ratchet.  Hell, there are even industry groups like the suppressor association that start this shit, and they should know better.

If this were GD somebody might say something inappropriate like 'stop being a pussy and STFU.'.  But you won't get that here.  Because it could always become a valid concern. Please OP post back iff you receive a tangible reference to the requirement in law.

Change uppers every day and send them a new letter every day

I dont see any requirement written anywhere

Haven't heard back from the specialist yet but found a link to a gun trust legal website that seems to confirm what the agents/reps told me.  At least they weren't bullshitting me.  I don't know for sure where/if this is specified in their documentation but I'll ask if I ever get a callback.

Adding/changing configuration on an SBR

Yes, you can lawfully ask to amend the record in the NFRTR to reflect additional configurations, but you aren't (yet) required to.  I gave an example of where it would be desirable to do this optional thing so you don't get caught creating a material misstatement of fact just to send in a Form 4 that gets rubber stamped (frequently it is recommended to copy existing info intact from prior Form 4s).  Or else have the Form 4 get delayed when your new correct info doesn't match what's on record.  So few secondary transfers of SBRs occur that for most this will never be an issue.

But in your OP you stated that you were required to do this before making a configuration change, and as of now that simply is not a requirement. And unless you have a reason to it's a bad idea for this to become common practice.

Realize that the NFA has a historical subtext of fear, and even lawyers tend to the better safe than sorry, precautionary principle, default advice.  It's like a damn boa constructor, every time we exhale it leisurely tightens its grip.

ROFL

This is why you do not ever, ever contact ATF for legal advice, or write letters.

This, painted yourself into a corner OP.

How is that?

So I should never ask them for instruction or clarification, even though they gave me correct guidance this time?

I know I’m new... but IBTL

1) They did not give you correct guidance.
2) If you want legal advice, consult an attorney, not a bureaucrat.

Yes I was told you could get into trouble for not amending the record.  Otherwise I would have been on my merry way and not posted the warning.  Appreciate all the posts that were helpful.

The constrictor analogy is spot on.

Problem is, they told you incorrectly and now there is a hornets nest stirred up...

It doesn’t make any sense though, they don’t even care if I sell my lower to a guy that puts a 16” upper on it.

You are asserting that putting an upper that’s 1” shorter than what’s listed on my form is criminal but the ATF’s written guidance states that even stripping the lower and selling it as a regular firearm without any notification is perfectly acceptable.

That is not what they told me and I'm asserting nothing.  I explained it as simply as I could.  ATF said if you add to the configuration of an NFA item you have to let them know and they update the record.

Sure it makes sense.  Your example is not applicable at all.  If you take the upper off and sell the lower without it it is no longer an SBR so it is no longer and NFA item, if you put on a 16" upper and sell it that way it is no longer an NFA item, if over OAL minimum.  They don't care if you un-NFA an item and sell it.

I know one thing for sure:  If the ATF tells you something you didn't know about an NFA regulation and if you ask about/share what they told you in this forum you will get nothing but grief over it.

That is wrong. You are requested to notify the BATFE NFA Branch of any permanent changes to the configuration.

Swapping an upper is not a permanent change.

The example is for multiple swappable added configuraions, not permanent ones.
Adding/changing configuration on an SBR
If there is no requirement to notify the ATF when adding or changing config the guy wasted his time with the above guide.

Yes he did,
but he wants to sell trusts and look like he knows things, so he authors fancy superfluous guides.

Please let my Form 1/4s get through before y'all start sending configuration changes.

Is that too much to ask?

Most of the gun trust lawyer websites are full of incorrect info.

Amen!

The SBR ATF police check my shit at the range each time to insure my upper matches my paperwork.

Why OP?

I got in the NFA game four years ago. Getting started, I consulted with a knowledgeable on NFA 'gun enthusiast' attorney.

I've never heard of an regulation requiring giving notifications for a temporary configuration changes ie. upper reciever/length/cal. until now. We are talking about the AR platform.

If you can use 2 pins and or other 'plug n play' parts and return to original paper form configuration how is this an issue with any regulation or ATF field examiner?

The point someoneon made on transferring NFA seems to me spot on.

Try consulting with a knowledgeable attorney. I'll give you my attorneys phone number if you want it.

Final word on this:  I spoke with a qualified attorney AND the station chief at the BATF main branch.  The record update procedure was added to SOP after instances of transfers being denied when records did not match the new configuration and due to confiscations of NFA items for the same reason.  When the regulations were written in the late 60's multiple configurations were not anticipated so there is NO requirement in the regulations to send an update notice.  It is recommended, not required.

Station chief gave me examples of why it should be done VOLUNTARILY:  Accident or pulled over by police may result in confiscation if the paperwork is not present or doesn't match the configuration.  Owner makes a configuration change and neglects to update the record then years later sells the NFA item, the Form to transfer WILL be denied until the record is corrected.

Another prime example of not required but strongly recommended is 5320 out of state travel.  This one was a surprise since I thought this WAS a requirement.  No regulation requirement to send in the form but same scenario applies if pulled over or in an accident etc. where the officer asks to see paperwork in the other state.  Don't HAVE to file the 5320 either, but stupid not to do so.  (Getting approval from ATF before moving an SBR, SBS, MG or Destructive Device to another State is required.  The law that requires it is 18 USC 922(a)(4) and the regulation is 27 CFR 478.28.  Yet you don’t have to use the Form, you can write ATF a letter asking for their approval to move an NFA weapon to another State.

I asked why three reps in his office told me the added configuration notice was a requirement.  He said over the years it has become SOP but the line between required and strongly suggested has become blurred.  You guys who said there is no requirement in the regulations were correct and you guys who mentioned the need for the update for transfers were right too.

Bottom line: No REQUIREMENT to update the record for added/changed configurations and they haven't changed the regulations to reflect a need to update the record.  Btw you WILL get a BATF APPROVED stamped copy of your letter back to put in your range bag in case of any questions.  I'm sending the update letter and see plenty of reason to do so and no reason not to.

Thanks to everyone who posted positive/helpful commentary.

The paperwork will NOT match. Your original Form does not get changed. So updating BATFE with the new config does nothing to help you on the side of the road. And local police have no access to the registry to see the original forms or any updates.

Do as you wish. Been in NFA game for decades, never once heard of a case of a person with a legally registered NFA item and getting it confiscated because BBL or caliber did not match. Nor have I heard of a woman or other person with a name change getting confiscated or arrested. This is all a non-issue.

I guess the best solution if you worry about things like this is to tell them you stripped the gun down to bare receiver, and all fields should be "N/A".

OR BETTER YET, keep gun in configuration described on form except when at range. Duh.

eta

good for you though in seeing this through to correct info.