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11/9/2018 9:21:38 PM
Posted: 9/8/2018 10:33:28 AM EST
Budget is under $4000 to $5000.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 11:06:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2018 11:07:09 AM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 12:14:54 PM EST
Good luck with that.

I’d like to shoot them at 800 yards for $2,000 too
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 2:51:21 PM EST
Well, what is realistic for that price?
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 5:54:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2018 6:11:24 PM EST by lilMAC25]
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Originally Posted By widmn:
Well, what is realistic for that price?
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2-300 yds. And you’ll be on the outside end of your price range.

SCOUR the EE night vision and local firearms classifieds. You might get lucky and snag a 75 or even 100 mm 640 core Armasight for $5K, but I doubt it. Even then, and @TNVC pointed out, you’ll have issues Positively IDentifying your target with thermal.

Another option is to find a less expensive thermal scanner and get yourself a nice I2 (night vision) clip on. With good enough glass and a thermal spotter, I think you could make it work.

ETA: don’t take my advice as final word. If TNVC/UNV/An actual expert says I’m wrong, I will not claim to be correct. I don’t have any practice shooting at that range especially at night.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 6:24:45 PM EST
Would the Flir PTS736 work?
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 6:24:59 PM EST
Can be done but not by thermal alone with that budget. I had a $10k thermal that was awesome but there was NO way you could PID a yote with it at that distance. Good thermal spotter for around $2500, plus a gen 3 clip-on such as SIMRAD KN203 or KN253 for ~$2k after mounts. You could sub a refurb PVS-30 instead of a SIMRAD but that would put it well north of your stated budget. I can easily shoot beyond 600 with my SIMRAD. Others have gone beyond 1000 us with them but I have ot been able to try that yet.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 6:32:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2018 6:43:17 PM EST by lilMAC25]
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Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Can be done but not by thermal alone with that budget. I had a $10k thermal that was awesome but there was NO way you could PID a yote with it at that distance. Good thermal spotter for around $2500, plus a gen 3 clip-on such as SIMRAD KN203 or KN253 for ~$2k after mounts. You could sub a refurb PVS-30 instead of a SIMRAD but that would put it well north of your stated budget. I can easily shoot beyond 600 with my SIMRAD. Others have gone beyond 1000 us with them but I have ot been able to try that yet.
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There is a SIMRAD Clip On in the EE right now for $1650.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/WTS-Gen-3-clip-on-long-range-NVD-AN-PVS-9-SIMRAD-KN203FAB-w-fresh-tube/172-1794210/
Only reason I haven’t jumped on it is that I don’t understand the way the mount works. Dont you have to mount it to the rings?

ETA: I would need to purchase better glass. Somehow I don’t think a Trijicon 3-9 would cut the mustard.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 6:52:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

There is a SIMRAD Clip On in the EE right now for $1650.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/WTS-Gen-3-clip-on-long-range-NVD-AN-PVS-9-SIMRAD-KN203FAB-w-fresh-tube/172-1794210/
Only reason I haven’t jumped on it is that I don’t understand the way the mount works. Dont you have to mount it to the rings?

ETA: I would need to purchase better glass. Somehow I don’t think a Trijicon 3-9 would cut the mustard.
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Yep that is my ad. You'd be surprised how well it works with mid-grade glass. My favorite scope to use with my workhorse SIMRAD is a ~$350 Vortex HS 2.5-10x32 with XLR MOA reticle, the image is awesome you wouldn't believe it was coming from an optics setup that cost ~$2200 TOTAL including the night sight. Mounting them is easy, just buy a Badger Unimount or rings plus a Badger SIMRAD cap. Spuhr mounts work also but I've never tried them so can't comment on them.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 6:55:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2018 6:56:40 PM EST by lilMAC25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Yep that is my ad. You'd be surprised how well it works with mid-grade glass. My favorite scope to use with my workhorse SIMRAD is a ~$350 Vortex HS 2.5-10x32 with XLR MOA reticle, the image is awesome you wouldn't believe it was coming from an optics setup that cost ~$2200 TOTAL including the night sight. Mounting them is easy, just buy a Badger Unimount or rings plus a Badger SIMRAD cap. Spuhr mounts work also but I've never tried them so can't comment on them.
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Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

There is a SIMRAD Clip On in the EE right now for $1650.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/WTS-Gen-3-clip-on-long-range-NVD-AN-PVS-9-SIMRAD-KN203FAB-w-fresh-tube/172-1794210/
Only reason I haven’t jumped on it is that I don’t understand the way the mount works. Dont you have to mount it to the rings?

ETA: I would need to purchase better glass. Somehow I don’t think a Trijicon 3-9 would cut the mustard.
Yep that is my ad. You'd be surprised how well it works with mid-grade glass. My favorite scope to use with my workhorse SIMRAD is a ~$350 Vortex HS 2.5-10x32 with XLR MOA reticle, the image is awesome you wouldn't believe it was coming from an optics setup that cost ~$2200 TOTAL including the night sight. Mounting them is easy, just buy a Badger Unimount or rings plus a Badger SIMRAD cap. Spuhr mounts work also but I've never tried them so can't comment on them.
Does the Unimount include the interface? I’m utterly clueless.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 7:07:13 PM EST
FLIR T-75 and ELCAN works for me up to 24X out 500+ yards on the .308.



If you can get one for $2K, be sure to shell out the bucks.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 7:13:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Does the Unimount include the interface? I’m utterly clueless.
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Negative, the Badger SIMRAD ring cap is sold separately from their scope ring sets and one piece scope mounts. I bought a lightly used Badger unimount for cheap and picked up a new SIMRAD ring cap off eBay for well under retail, wound up with ~$215 in the mount/SIMRAD cap total and it is solid as hell. I also had a 1913 rail mount fabricated for my other one so I can now SIMRAD all the things
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 7:45:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Another option is to find a less expensive thermal scanner and get yourself a nice I2 (night vision) clip on. With good enough glass and a thermal spotter, I think you could make it work.
View Quote


This is how I roll. PTS233 spends 90% of the time as a scanner and PVS-30 does the killing.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 8:17:04 PM EST
Why not close the distance with a digital game call added to your budget thermal purchase?
Link Posted: 9/9/2018 11:47:55 AM EST
For a thermal, the IR hunter Mk III 60mm would do it at 400 if you could positivity ID your target. You’re looking at 9 grand for one, though.
Link Posted: 9/9/2018 7:29:41 PM EST
Hmmmm. I had a dealer tell me a FLIR PTS 736 would do it and another dealer tell me an ATN THOR 4 2.5 x 25 in 640 would do it. Both are under $5000 . Seems like I can't believe these yahoos to give me the straight poop and this kind of shit can give the industry a really bad name. I guess they don't care.
Link Posted: 9/10/2018 7:18:07 AM EST
Find a new dealer.
Link Posted: 9/10/2018 10:36:43 AM EST
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Originally Posted By widmn:
Hmmmm. I had a dealer tell me a FLIR PTS 736 would do it and another dealer tell me an ATN THOR 4 2.5 x 25 in 640 would do it. Both are under $5000 . Seems like I can't believe these yahoos to give me the straight poop and this kind of shit can give the industry a really bad name. I guess they don't care.
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this is related to the concept of positive ID. Everyone commenting here is basically telling you that you'd be able to see the coyote at those distances, but would be unable to positively ID it as a coyote at those distances, and that without positive ID, you shouldn't shoot it. Your dealers are probably suggesting that you would be able to see and shoot a coyote at that distance, and are not worried about positive ID. If you've been hanging around the night vision forum very long, you'd know this is a hotly debated topic on a regular basis, with the exact definition of "PID" being quite subjective. Some guys think that being sure enough that it's a canine-ish creature and not a cow, etc is "PID" enough. Other guys think that PID requires you to be able to differentiate between a coyote and a dog, and still others seem to think you need to be able to see the whites of their eyes with your thermal or you might get it wrong. There's no official "right" answer.

Personally, out in the desert of Utah, 20+ miles away from the nearest town, the chances of getting someone's pet dog popping out of a bush in response to a call is highly unlikely, so my personal comfort level with being able to make sure I'm not shooting a cow or... well... there's really not much else out here other than rabbits.... is to see that it is a group of pixels that trots across the screen like a coyote.

If I was in the palmettos outside of town in Central Florida hunting for hogs and a "coyote-like" group of pixels appeared out of the brush at the edge of my identification range, I'd definitely want to be able to tell it wasn't someone's dog, or a deer, panther etc. So context matters.
Link Posted: 9/10/2018 1:34:02 PM EST
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Originally Posted By widmn:
Hmmmm. I had a dealer tell me a FLIR PTS 736 would do it and another dealer tell me an ATN THOR 4 2.5 x 25 in 640 would do it. Both are under $5000 . Seems like I can't believe these yahoos to give me the straight poop and this kind of shit can give the industry a really bad name. I guess they don't care.
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Can you shoot something at those distances with the above equipment? Yes you can. Can you positively identify what you are shooting if it’s a coyote size animal? No you can’t.
Link Posted: 9/10/2018 1:37:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2018 1:39:18 PM EST by texassooner]
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Originally Posted By Daggertt:
this is related to the concept of positive ID. Everyone commenting here is basically telling you that you'd be able to see the coyote at those distances, but would be unable to positively ID it as a coyote at those distances, and that without positive ID, you shouldn't shoot it. Your dealers are probably suggesting that you would be able to see and shoot a coyote at that distance, and are not worried about positive ID. If you've been hanging around the night vision forum very long, you'd know this is a hotly debated topic on a regular basis, with the exact definition of "PID" being quite subjective. Some guys think that being sure enough that it's a canine-ish creature and not a cow, etc is "PID" enough. Other guys think that PID requires you to be able to differentiate between a coyote and a dog, and still others seem to think you need to be able to see the whites of their eyes with your thermal or you might get it wrong. There's no official "right" answer.

Personally, out in the desert of Utah, 20+ miles away from the nearest town, the chances of getting someone's pet dog popping out of a bush in response to a call is highly unlikely, so my personal comfort level with being able to make sure I'm not shooting a cow or... well... there's really not much else out here other than rabbits.... is to see that it is a group of pixels that trots across the screen like a coyote.

If I was in the palmettos outside of town in Central Florida hunting for hogs and a "coyote-like" group of pixels appeared out of the brush at the edge of my identification range, I'd definitely want to be able to tell it wasn't someone's dog, or a deer, panther etc. So context matters.
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Originally Posted By Daggertt:
Originally Posted By widmn:
Hmmmm. I had a dealer tell me a FLIR PTS 736 would do it and another dealer tell me an ATN THOR 4 2.5 x 25 in 640 would do it. Both are under $5000 . Seems like I can't believe these yahoos to give me the straight poop and this kind of shit can give the industry a really bad name. I guess they don't care.
this is related to the concept of positive ID. Everyone commenting here is basically telling you that you'd be able to see the coyote at those distances, but would be unable to positively ID it as a coyote at those distances, and that without positive ID, you shouldn't shoot it. Your dealers are probably suggesting that you would be able to see and shoot a coyote at that distance, and are not worried about positive ID. If you've been hanging around the night vision forum very long, you'd know this is a hotly debated topic on a regular basis, with the exact definition of "PID" being quite subjective. Some guys think that being sure enough that it's a canine-ish creature and not a cow, etc is "PID" enough. Other guys think that PID requires you to be able to differentiate between a coyote and a dog, and still others seem to think you need to be able to see the whites of their eyes with your thermal or you might get it wrong. There's no official "right" answer.

Personally, out in the desert of Utah, 20+ miles away from the nearest town, the chances of getting someone's pet dog popping out of a bush in response to a call is highly unlikely, so my personal comfort level with being able to make sure I'm not shooting a cow or... well... there's really not much else out here other than rabbits.... is to see that it is a group of pixels that trots across the screen like a coyote.

If I was in the palmettos outside of town in Central Florida hunting for hogs and a "coyote-like" group of pixels appeared out of the brush at the edge of my identification range, I'd definitely want to be able to tell it wasn't someone's dog, or a deer, panther etc. So context matters.
Shooting someone’s dog is one thing, accidentally shooting a person is another. This is why PID is so important IMO. You wouldn’t go launching rounds at an animal during the day that you couldn’t ID, why would you do it at night? Not saying that is what you are suggesting, just my thoughts
Link Posted: 9/10/2018 5:51:02 PM EST
I’ll make an offer, you tell me which thermal you’d like to see a picture of at 500yds, and I’ll get you a through the eyepiece view. You can decide for yourself if it’s worth your money or not . But in return I’d like to know who you talked to that recommend those particular models. You can send as private message. I’d just like to know who it was. I’m willing to bet .......
1. They don’t spend much time outside killing stuff at night, and ...
2. They just like everyone else that says they shot a coyote at 500 yds at night. They’re either lying , or overestimating the distance by 350+/- yds. And that was the one time they actually hit one, forgot to mention they have a lifetime kill count of 3.

I’m not saying any of this to be sarcastic. I hope you find something you like and works for you . But distance is really tricky at night . Your looking at a tv screen , and have no depth perception. Tough to tell if it a big pig that 200 yds away , or an avg pig that 150, unless you’ve got known landmarks ect . Coyotes are a little more forgiving, since there’s not so much difference in sizes. But still tough. There’s been a bunch of times we’ve shot pigs at “60 yds” only to find out it was more like 40. And I spend a decent amount of time outside .

I’d also add, that as always, most of what I say is strictly my opinion. You can take it for what it’s worth . But in all honesty, dont buy an ATN. Period . Ever. You can come look at the stuff I got , no strings attached. I’ve got a fair amount of it, and none of it is ATN, for a reason. All different mfg have pluses/minuses. ATN just sucks. If you actually get one that works, that’s great. But give it a little while and it will suck, and then they won’t fix it .... if I was a dealer and you said you wanted one, I’d make you sign a waiver saying you understood that it sucked, and you’d be on your own . Yes it really is that bad of a situation at the end of the day
Link Posted: 9/11/2018 7:32:57 AM EST
I honestly think the pts736 would work ... I have pictures of a coyote target from 100-500 yards I can send you. But like others said I wouldn’t start slinging shots without positive ID...
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