Update:

Been browsing and learning. Still don't know wtf is what when it comes to the different Macs and SWDs and Cobrays and everything. I saw this gun, but the conversion from semi to full makes me a little iffy. Should it? Also "This pistol is double stamped RPB and Weapon Spec." bad or good?

What do people think about this? Gunbroker link.


I know this gets asked about a million times. I read the sticky at the top.

I want to buy an M11 in 9mm  It looks like I should stick to ones made ‘85 and earlier. My neighbor had one growing up and it was pretty unreliable. I do not want to spend $8000 on a gun that jams every other magazine. Are the older ones more reliable?

I like the Lage conversions. I’d love to add a T1 and a VFG. Can I do these myself?

Is it better to just pay 3-4K more for an Uzi? I want reliability and of course parts availability more than almost anything.

Are there resources I can find this info out? I plan on buying from Ruben at Dealernfa.com

Lage is drop in. Metal mags from Shockwave.
Check out Uzitalk.com.
Have some and Richard’s  600rpm is great.

I got my M11/9 this past January and it's an 86 and has zero issues feeding Winchester white box.  I would look on gun broker or EE for one I lucked out and got mine pretty cheap going that route. Also  from what I understand if any gun that does have issues it can be sent to Sam at practical solutions and made to run correctly/put into spec.

MAC Forum on Uzi Talk

The above is an excellent resource for all things MAC.

That said, here is my take on it, but I'm by no means an expert:

The M11/9 (or M11/Nine) was made exclusively by SWD.  IIRC production ran from 1983 to 1986 but a huge number of guns registered just prior to the May 1986 ban on new registrations.  That likely means (and seem to be supported by internet collective experience) that the 1986 guns are more likely to suffer from QC problems than the earlier guns.  If I was buying a M11/9 I would probably look for a 1984 or 1985 gun just to avoid any potential startup or race to the finish QC problems.

However, at this point in the history of these guns many of the issues, if they once existed, are probably solved unless the guns are still NIB.  One also has to consider that the MAC series of guns have basically become registered receivers.  I have a M10 that came with both factory and Lage uppers when I bought it back in 2012.  I haven't shot more than a handful or rounds through it in stock configuration, it is just much more pleasant and usable with the Lage upper.

At present the M11/9 probably still has the most aftermarket support.  For instance, only the M11/9 has a readily available .22 LR conversion kit (from Lage).  Kits for M10s exist but they are hard to get and mostly have awful reputations.  The aftermarket support for the M10 is starting to catch up with the M11/9.  There are 5.56 and 7.62x39mm uppers in the works with different makers for the M10.  There is also an adapter awaiting final BATFE approval that allows for the use of stock AR uppers on a M10 receiver and results in a closed bolt full-auto.

There are several varieties of M10s out there from different manufacturers.  The original MAC guns (mostly marked Powder Springs, GA), the RPB double stamp guns marked both as Powder Springs and RPB, the "Texas MACs" that have a reputation for bad welds in original form, "Texas MACs" completed by SWD that have good welds and common lower parts (the original Texas guns had some proprietary internals), and Jersey Armory guns (which I don't know anything about).

If you are a serious buyer I highly recommend this book:

The MAC Man

At present I have two M10s.  One is an original Texas MAC that is off at Practical Solutions getting all the welds upgraded and, among other things, an Uzi mag well conversion.  The other is a Texas marked SWD completed M10/45.  It is staying as is because it has good welds and common internals so it doesn't need the upgrades.  The original Texas guns tend to cost less but the price of fixing them is going to be the same or a little more than just getting a gun made correctly in the first place.  I bought mine because it was a good enough deal that getting the welds fixed and other upgrades was worth it.  Plus, I got seven years of use out of it before a weld cracked.

If I was going to buy another MAC right now it would probably be a M11 or M11A1 .380.  They are smaller and lighter than the M11/9 and have nearly as many upper options.  They only really lack a dedicated .22 kit.

The M11/9 is a great choice for a single MG so long as you don't want to shoot .45 ACP ever.  If you do, then the M10 is the way to go, at least at present.

Uzis are iconic and I would love to own one but as we sit now the MAC is a more flexible platform.

Mine is an 86 gun, I’ve only been shooting it since August (when my stamp was approved), a handful of range trips so far and about 2,000 rounds through my SK upper with CF-Wa bolt, used ZMags exclusively (mostly 30s but some 50s).  I’ve shot S&B 124gr almost exclusively, Ive has exactly 0 stoppages or malfunctions, not even ammo related.  The gun runs like a sewing machine.  I don’t own an uzi, but I am very satisfied with my M-11/9, it’s a nice shooter.  I don’t see myself selling it, ever.

M10 was $200 for gun $200 for stamp $200 for suppressor $200 for second stamp in 1980 and while it never failed to feed or failed to fire it certainly had the look and feel of a $200 gun ---- buy the UZI or an MP5 better yet buy one that is not NFA and save yourself a world of grief.  LINK  Happiest day of my life was when I got it transferred out of my name.

F   NFA

Mine is a 86 gun I bought from David spiwak about 3 years ago I think.

No issues.

I’d steer clear of any NIB guns. Guns that have been shoot more than likely have been troubleshooted and are fine.

And if you do get one that has issues you can send it to practical solutions in TN and have it completely re welded and parked for under a grand.

And as of right now I’d steer clear of the UZIs as Macs are probably about to get crazy on prices. With the ultimak upper coming to market along with the lage 556 upper the price will be going up.

So one registered lower will give you 22lr - belt fed rifle caliber and many in between.
Below is the new ultimak for the M10 and soon coming M11/9. It’s a upper receiver that uses AR parts and has a swappable mag well. He also has a belt fed upper in development that will be able to swap out fed trays for RPD links, SAW type disintegrating links etc...  

I personally much prefer an UZI over a MAC. But the MAC is the best entry level machine gun. Lots of aftermarket support that help turn it into something UZI like. But the UZI is still better without question. Looking for an investment go MAC though as UZI prices are already high. Want something to enjoy and keep forever get the UZI.

Also it has been shown that machine gun price guide “if referencing it” hand selects its data to show prices higher than what the average actually is.

For a M11 for a deal will be under 7K. I’d say $7.8-8 is avg dealer price.

The question you should ask yourself OP do I want a MG that has history or class to it or a MG that I can shoot and enjoy for years to come?

I’d also look at the overall cost of what you are paying with accessories/mags.  As a collector, the uzi is the gun to have.  As a shooter, IMO it’s the Lage.  By the time you buy a Max-11sk, Max-11s Mk2 & Max-31 Mk2 uppers with a couple tungsten bolts with all the other Lage goodies (grips, stock, small parts, trigger, safety, etc) along with zmags & drums I think your overall cost will be higher than it would for an Uzi, but you’ll have several fun to shoot configurations.

True, every now and then you will catch a Mac with accessories for a standard price but it is rare. When it comes time to sell guys usually part everything out to get more for it.

Also OP the CFW bolts that the guys are talking about are out of production and as of last week only a few left as I Just have received one of the last 3 I think. They are kinda expensive for what they are but such is everything in the MG world sadly.

The thing is the guns are sheet steel, they can be fixed if they are out of spec. With new magazines now and better spec parts(cnc'd internals) the issues are not as bad as they once were. The lage stuff is gtg and depending on the upper it will come with a vfg or a mount for one and you can mount an aimpoint without a problem. Practical solutions also makes ghost uppers which are stock sized but have a side cocking setup so you can put a red dot on it and they have a solid mounted vfg. A coffee freak slow fire bolt is helpful for the stock sized upper but they are going to get harder to find as I don't think they are planning another run.

I wouldn't pay the extra for an uzi unless you really want one. A lot of them have issues as well. Again they can be fixed. The uzi's have been more static on pricing where the macs have been going up due to the aftermarket.

I also wouldn't go with Ruben unless you just can't find one elsewhere. He charges a premium and I don't think its warranted. I had someone asking me about mp5s the other day and noticed his "make it right with no expense spared" guns have unmarked or rcm parts in them. If you are paying top dollar it should be all German. This isn't going to really be the same with the macs but still it makes me wonder.

Lot of good info here.  All I will add is I had one with the sten mag conversion.  I learned that I HATE sten mags.  And it had feeding issues. At the time I also owned an MP5 which NEVER had a jam so I just threw the M11 in the safe and said bye bye.

That said, I have neither now.  Just don't get a sten mag version and I think you'll have fun.

Yea avoid a sten conversion. The mags have been drying up and since we can buy new m11/9 mags that is the better route.

The only real magwell conversion would be a m10/9 or m10/45 to uzi magwell to swap between calibers easier.

What weight bullets are you firing in those videos and did you clip your springs?

No clipped coils stock spring that came with it and Winchester 115 white box ammo.

Mine seems to be running a little fast with 115Gr and a can. Wish I had a shot timer. I may have to clip some coils. Have a case of wolf 115 supposed to be here Wednesday so will try it out them.

When you find a good one, buy it. Then, add another. And don’t be afraid of one that has been run a bit, either. NIB isn't always best, especially if it’s to be shot and not hidden away in locked solitude. They’re still the best value out there, although that will likely change in the next five to ten years. Best of luck.

1) Mine is a 84' and I had mag well fitment issues. Even after a magwell stretch its still tight. Bottom line is these are mass produced stamped sheet metal subguns, they cant/shouldn't be compared to a M16 or other higher end MG.

2) shockwave mags are the way to go, all my polymer mags are trash IMO

3) lage uppers are awesome

4) 147gr 9mm is subsonic even though it isn't labeled as subsonic

5) I don't know much about uzis, I have heard they are better quality but I thinks comparing the base uzi to the base m1/m10. But if you factor in after market support from companies like lage I would say the M11 is a better MG these day.

FYI: As of today, the CFW bolts are sold out. Vegas SMG is out and so is Sam at Practical Solutions

86 here. Lage Max31 and Suomi mags.  Runs great.

Yep seen that last night on UZItalk. Guess I got mine at the right time. Think he said he had 3 left when I bought mine 2 weeks ago.

OP, I bought an '86 and the first time I went to shoot it (with a new buffer) the back of the receiver blew out. Pisser. This was back in 2005 @ $2900.00. I brought it back to the dealer in with in three weeks it looked like it just came from the factory. Magic can happen...

86 here with factory upper and lage mk ii upper. I have all shockwave mags. Each mag had one or 2 stoppages the very first time I used them but have run absolutely perfect ever since with the lage upper. The factory upper gets a random stoppage now and then but I barely use that upper.

I also have a lage 22 conversion for the mk ii. Have not been able to make it run reliably.  It seems the mags are the problem.  I have 3 and they all seem to feed too slow. I may keep the conversion and try to fix it or I might just sell it.

I have what I need, but hopefully there is another run or two, maybe down the road when some collectors who have had them in the back of the safe die off and collections get sold, I’d bet demand may once again hit a point where they are once again made.  I’m sure some will go up for sale here or there, as people who bought multiple bolts maybe sell off their M-11/9 and sell of parts and accessories separately.

IIRC, there were a few concept and machining prove out prototypes M11/9 tungsten bolts, then two production runs of 100 each.  The first run sold out in about 6 months.  The second run has taken about two and a half years to sell out.

Be well.

I seem to remember vegas smg saying that the number of bolts made was more than 500 but less than a thousand total.

You're probably right.  I don't have an M11/9, but I've got an M11-380 and a 9mm Suomi mag, slow fire upper.  After the M11/9 tungsten bolts had been out for a while I briefly considered getting a M11/9 tungsten bolt and one of the plastic spacers to put on top of the bolt so that the 9mm upper could be cut shorter.  Just wasn't worth doing, to me anyway, so I didn't really keep track of what was being done.

That’s how I usually am. Go ahead and jump on the 22lr conversion while you can.

I really appreciate all of the information in this thread. You guys have been very helpful. Just doing more reading and researching based on the info you guys have shared.

I have found ‘83 and ‘86 guns that are basically new. I’m assuming it will be best to go with the ‘83 in that case. It’s also good to know there are people who can fix these things if they do break.

I wouldn’t worry about the Newness of it. Get one that has been shot and troubleshooted.

Yea with the mac guns I'd avoid a new in box one, find one that is already known to be in working order. Plenty of them have been adjusted and fixed over the years.

I have a Sten converted M11/9. 17 years ago when I bought it that was a good option, now not so much. That said it's not really that big of a deal for me. I have a bunch of mags and all of them run 100%.

Yea it was a good option at one point. The guns can always be converted back to normal mags but I can see not doing it if everything is working.

Here is one I saw for sale..... (I have no relation to the seller)

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/844664568

Thanks again for the post.

The guns I've been seeing are all powder springs. Are those to be avoided? I linked one to the OP.

Powder springs m10's are generally considered to be the best. If its a m11 and powder springs its a 380. Those are kinda rare unless they are rpb double stamps.

In the m10 world I'd get a 45 and avoid the Jersey and Texas guns if possible. If the texas gun doesn't have the garand style safety then it should be good to go. If either was redone by say practical solutions then they should be gtg as well.

For m11/9 guns virtually all of them should be swd and for the most part are fine. I'd still avoid a new in box one and want one that you know fires right. If its out of spec it can be fixed but that will just add to the cost.

Powder Springs guns are the originals and are GTG.  You should note that there are two different grips for the M10, the .45 and 9mm versions.  There is an adapter available for the .45 so you can use 9mm magazines and an upper and have a 9mm gun.  The grip on the 9mm guns is too small for grease gun mags so there is no 9mm to .45 conversion.

Both of mine started out as .45 guns.  One is still in that configuration and I have Lage .45 and 9mm uppers (the 9mm is a MAX-31 so I don't have to use the magwell insert and original 9mm magazines).  The other has an Uzi magwell conversion and is primarily used as a 9mm, though it can use .45 Uzi mags with a .45 upper (with modified bolt).

The auction you posted is for a open-bolt semi-auto converted 3rd party to a machinegun.  That isn't necessarily bad, but with all the original Mac MGs out there I'd probably just go with one of those.

I owned mine for over 15 years with a Sten conversion. Mags are cheap and easy to find. The only pain is the desirable loader is expensive.  Feed it 115 grain and run a Macjack and enjoy

Thanks for the explanation. What about a factory marked M10 in 9mm? Do those still use converted mags? Or is the magwell converted? I'm looking at a Powder Springs/RPB gun that is local to me and it seems to be factory marked as Mac10 9mm. What mags would fit that?

My only gripe is that the guy wants $7750. It's just the gun, it doesn't even have a stock which is ok I suppose because I'm going to throw a Lage on it. DealerNFA is local to me but he wants $8k+ for Macs.  

I know the market is the market, but I am really struggling to bring myself to pay $7500+. I feel like that is my limit, with an ideal price <$7k. It's amazing how much these are going for, but even more amazing some folks are still finding deals under $6k. I should've freaking bought one in 2012 like I was about to. It was $3200

I'm sort of in the market, though I'm having a tough time justifying it to myself. My thought is that it's worth it to wait to see what happens. More unemployed means people looking to sell things they don't need and fewer people competing to buy things they don't need. This might mean lower prices in a few months. At worst they shouldn't go up much so seems worth it to wait a bit and see how things go. I mean, either way it's not like you're going to find one for $3k or anything, but could be $500-$1000 less.

The 9mm M10s use a smaller magwell than the .45 guns and use a 9mm magazine from a 9mm SMG of the era.  I don't own one so I'm not entirely sure, but I think it was the Walther MPL.  Those magazines are not exactly cheap or easy to find.  However, I think depending on vintage the 9mm guns might actually have two different size magwells.  If I were going to buy a 9mm magwell M10 I would either A) Send it to Practical Solutions for an Uzi magazine/magwell conversion, B) Use it with a MAX-10/31 Suomi upper, C) Use a dedicated 5.56mm upper (once available), or D) Some or all of A through C.  Both my MACs started as .45s so I don't have any direct experience with the 9mm only guns.

I bought my second M10 from DealerNFA in October of 2019 (and it was already approved, thanks for once ATF).  I paid $6995, but it was a Texas MAC.  The catch was, unlike the other Texas MACs he had at the time (and still does last I checked) this one was a gun finished by SWD.  That means it has all the standard parts, proper welds, and the reinforcement tabs in the front pin hole.  

DealerNFA has a bunch of guns at $7995.  I'd probably buy one of those instead of a gun including basically nothing for $7750.  One of the great sayings in the machinegun market is that you can never pay too much you can only pay it too soon.  I bought my first MAC in 2012 for $3800 and that hurt (and was a little high, but it was local and had a bunch of accessories including a Lage upper).  Now it is worth about twice that, or nearly so.  They are not likely to get cheaper or more available as time passes.

FTF industries has the RPB tooling or at least access to it and has new production m10/9 magazines(they are in stock right now). The mags are like the small magwell m11/380 mags, they go in and out of stock as they are made in batches so you need to plan ahead a bit to make sure you order them when in stock.

That being said I'd convert a m10/9 to a grease gun magwell or an uzi one.

For a double stamped M10 9 I’d need magazines, a Lage upper, and a stock.

It looks like someone is making RPB mags now. Will these fit? Are they reliable? I guess I should go browse Uzi talk?

FTF either got the tooling or is having them made for them. I've used their RPB m11/380 mags and they work well, guessing the m10/9 mags are gtg.

That being said you might want to consider the uzi mag conversion. The uzi mags are cheaper and it would allow you to get a 45 upper and uzi 45 mags if you wanted to shoot that as well. The downside is the bolts need to be cut for it but practical solutions can do that when they do the mag conversion.

Past that the lage stock is good, the norse force acr adapter though with the lage upper is really nice(too tall for a stock upper).