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Posted: 1/16/2019 4:03:52 AM EDT
Class 3 SOT, if I give it up later, I have to transfer NFA items to myself using other FFL, but what about post 1986 machine guns if I'm no longer SOT?

Moving to another state, requires new registration at new place?

Is that possible to apply as private individual for personal purposes or sole proprietor is a must?
My area is not crime free and I have 3 kids, so I'd better not to have anyone come to my house. Best I can do if friends and colleagues transfers, but basically for myself since I buy average 10 guns + 2 suppressors per year. Cost saving by avoiding retail stores.
If sole proprietor, do they require any minimal sales per year, thus liability insurance for conducting business?

Having concealed carry permit simplifies process or this is unrelated?

Inspections, can they show up without notice or they schedule day/time?

Any help is appreciated, I'm new to this.
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 5:10:39 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Class 3 SOT, if I give it up later, I have to transfer NFA items to myself using other FFL, but what about post 1986 machine guns if I'm no longer SOT?
View Quote
Wut

You don't have to transfer anything later, except post-86 MGs (and they just need be gotten rid of. Can DEMIL instead.)

SOT is an add-on tax, paid annually. The FFL can continue to exist as a regular FFL (of whatever type it already was), and may keep any NFA (except post-86 MG) even without paying SOT in June. You pay FFL renewal if you want to remain a FFL, and pay SOT every June if you want to remain a SOT.

If you decide not to renew the SOT, buyers of your post-86 MGs who happen to be Class I or II SOTs get the privilege of not needing a LE demo letter to affect transfer of the MG to them. This increases their value a bit at that time. They must be gone by June if you haven't paid SOT.

If you give up the entire FFL, whatever entity held the FFL will still hold/own all the firearms. This cannot include post-86 MGs however.
You can certainly transfer everything else before/after relinquishing the FFL/SOT, but it isn't required.

It is required that a LLC or corporation continue to exist (including any state-mandated fees and annual report filings) if you expect it to continue to own property.

If the FFL is in your name as an individual (sole proprietor) then you personally own all the property.

Moving to another state, requires new registration at new place?
View Quote
No. You'd apply for a new FFL.

Is that possible to apply as private individual for personal purposes or sole proprietor is a must?
My area is not crime free and I have 3 kids, so I'd better not to have anyone come to my house. Best I can do if friends and colleagues transfers, but basically for myself since I buy average 10 guns + 2 suppressors per year. Cost saving by avoiding retail stores.
If sole proprietor, do they require any minimal sales per year, thus liability insurance for conducting business?
View Quote
The ATF doesn't care about liability insurance. That's up to you if you want that. Bear in mind that sole P's have unlimited personal liability.

The ATF does care if you try to use a FFL or SOT for personal acquisition of firearms. They do not allow that. You must be doing it as a legitimate business. They do not put any numbers on that, but they aren't stupid either.
If doing legitimate business, you can certainly get a few things for yourself.

Sole proprietorship = you as an individual. You are the business. The FFL would be in your name personally (but you could have a trade name also, if you want).

Having concealed carry permit simplifies process or this is unrelated?
View Quote
Unrelated.

Inspections, can they show up without notice or they schedule day/time?
View Quote
Both. Typically they will schedule.

They can only show up and inspect your place of business during your listed business hours (without a warrant).
They'll still need a warrant, like other LE, to search your residence without your permission. (Not that warrants are difficult to obtain, but they'll need Probable Cause.)

Any help is appreciated, I'm new to this.
View Quote
You're welcome.
Good luck!
Read more.
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 12:16:22 PM EDT
[#2]
What KitBuilder said, but also:

The most important thing about getting an FFL as far as ATF is concerned is whether you have a premises from which it is legal for you to conduct your business. That can torpedo a "kitchen table" FFL if you're not zoned for it, and your city or town doesn't allow retail home businesses. If you rent your premises, you must have permission from your landlord to run a gun business there.

Just because you run your business from your home doesn't mean you have to have customers in. You could do nothing but online gun auction sales and ship everything out, but your licensed premises is where ATF will come to do inspections. You can also do transfers to customers at bona-fide gun shows anywhere in your state, so you could choose to only do FTF business at gun shows, if you so chose.
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 6:57:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks a lot guys.

Quoted:
Just because you run your business from your home doesn't mean you have to have customers in. You could do nothing but online gun auction sales and ship everything out, but your licensed premises is where ATF will come to do inspections. You can also do transfers to customers at bona-fide gun shows anywhere in your state, so you could choose to only do FTF business at gun shows, if you so chose.
View Quote
But do I need FFL to send items out online? If I'm not doing any transfers. FFL is needed basically is just to get items cheaper from big dealers, am I right?
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 8:12:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Set all the SOT questions aside.  Are you wanting to get your FFL to be in "the gun business" or are you wanting to enhance your personal collection at what you think is cheaper pricing?
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 8:27:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
But do I need FFL to send items out online? If I'm not doing any transfers. FFL is needed basically is just to get items cheaper from big dealers, am I right?
View Quote
You don't need an FFL to send items out to other FFLs, but you do need an FFL to receive items interstate, and in order to be engaged in the business at all.

I'll repeat that - you need an FFL to be engaged in a firearms buying or selling business. Period.

I was just pointing out that you don't have to have customers wandering through your living room if you are able to get your FFL out of your home address, but you do still have to have the FFL in order to be engaged in online buying and selling, or buying and selling only at gunshows.

You also won't get many items cheaper from big dealers, because you're not buying in warehouse quantities like Bud's or Bass Pro Shops. Some small discounts are available, but most small dealers have to work the consignments and used side of the house, and sell ammo and accessories to keep the doors open.
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 9:26:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Set all the SOT questions aside.  Are you wanting to get your FFL to be in "the gun business" or are you wanting to enhance your personal collection at what you think is cheaper pricing?
View Quote
Not looking for profit.
Want SOT for quicker and cheaper suppressors acquisition. Plus bonus to get firearms from dealers. That was an idea, if it doesn't work like that its ok. Just want to point that "FFL get fast no problem" websites advertise it like that.
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 10:10:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Not looking for profit.
Want SOT for quicker and cheaper suppressors acquisition. Plus bonus to get firearms from dealers. That was an idea, if it doesn't work like that its ok. Just want to point that "FFL get fast no problem" websites advertise it like that.
View Quote
That will not fly with ATF or IRS. That's basically tax evasion.
Link Posted: 1/16/2019 10:14:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That will not fly with ATF or IRS. That's basically tax evasion.
View Quote
Quite possible, but can't get where is tax evasion?
Instead of paying 30-40 to other FFLs for transfer I transfer myself, and pay for FFL.
Instead of paying 200 for tax stamp I pay 500 for SOT.
It's not about conducting business and not declaring to IRS.
Or they watch at different angle..
Link Posted: 1/17/2019 7:06:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not looking for profit.
Want SOT for quicker and cheaper suppressors acquisition. Plus bonus to get firearms from dealers. That was an idea, if it doesn't work like that its ok. Just want to point that "FFL get fast no problem" websites advertise it like that.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Set all the SOT questions aside.  Are you wanting to get your FFL to be in "the gun business" or are you wanting to enhance your personal collection at what you think is cheaper pricing?
Not looking for profit.
Want SOT for quicker and cheaper suppressors acquisition. Plus bonus to get firearms from dealers. That was an idea, if it doesn't work like that its ok. Just want to point that "FFL get fast no problem" websites advertise it like that.
That's what I thought.  My suggestion...do NOT apply for your FFL.  Do not waste the BATFEs time.  With no business plan they will see right through you.

Good Luck
Link Posted: 1/17/2019 8:10:31 AM EDT
[#10]
Then you are not “in business” OP. BATFE and/or the IRS will give you tender loving you did not ask for.
You are specifically using it to subvert the legal process for individuals to acquire those types of firearms.
It could very well end up costing you a lot more than just making a reasonable deal on ..? And transferring as an individual.

In or out ?
Link Posted: 1/17/2019 12:23:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quite possible, but can't get where is tax evasion? You would be evading taxes on each NFA firearm.
Instead of paying 30-40 to other FFLs for transfer I transfer myself, and pay for FFL. Other than the 03FFL for Collectors, an FFL is for engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. Not for enhancing one's personal collection.
Instead of paying 200 for tax stamp I pay 500 for SOT. SOT is a YEARLY fee to allow an FFL to engage in the BUSINESS of dealing in NFA firearms. Pay once, acquire several NFA firearms, never renew? Yeah, that's a good plan.
It's not about conducting business and not declaring to IRS. If its not about conducting business then you don't apply for an FFL.
Or they watch at different angle..
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

That will not fly with ATF or IRS. That's basically tax evasion.
Quite possible, but can't get where is tax evasion? You would be evading taxes on each NFA firearm.
Instead of paying 30-40 to other FFLs for transfer I transfer myself, and pay for FFL. Other than the 03FFL for Collectors, an FFL is for engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. Not for enhancing one's personal collection.
Instead of paying 200 for tax stamp I pay 500 for SOT. SOT is a YEARLY fee to allow an FFL to engage in the BUSINESS of dealing in NFA firearms. Pay once, acquire several NFA firearms, never renew? Yeah, that's a good plan.
It's not about conducting business and not declaring to IRS. If its not about conducting business then you don't apply for an FFL.
Or they watch at different angle..
Wow.
Link Posted: 1/17/2019 12:37:18 PM EDT
[#12]
How so I find out if I can run an FFL out of my home? I am recently unemployed and have time now to do what I want to do versus what I have to do.
Link Posted: 1/17/2019 1:49:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How do I find out if I can run an FFL out of my home?
View Quote
How is your property zoned?

If it's in a municipality, seek clarification from the municipal authority.
Link Posted: 1/17/2019 2:09:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quite possible, but can't get where is tax evasion?
View Quote
It is not, and nobody has ever been charged for it in this scenario. I will say this, it is very, very easy to be in the business of firearms. Very easy. You really have to go out of your way to not be in the business.
Link Posted: 1/18/2019 9:14:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How so I find out if I can run an FFL out of my home? I am recently unemployed and have time now to do what I want to do versus what I have to do.
View Quote
Check your local zoning and HOA CCR's, if any, for prohibitions on home-based businesses.
Link Posted: 1/19/2019 12:06:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quite possible, but can't get where is tax evasion? You would be evading taxes on each NFA firearm.
Instead of paying 30-40 to other FFLs for transfer I transfer myself, and pay for FFL. Other than the 03FFL for Collectors, an FFL is for engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. Not for enhancing one's personal collection.
Instead of paying 200 for tax stamp I pay 500 for SOT. SOT is a YEARLY fee to allow an FFL to engage in the BUSINESS of dealing in NFA firearms. Pay once, acquire several NFA firearms, never renew? Yeah, that's a good plan.
It's not about conducting business and not declaring to IRS. If its not about conducting business then you don't apply for an FFL.
View Quote
There's even better plan to wait for Hearing Protection Act to be ratified so I can get several refunds from ATF, but this may never happen.
I want to act in legal way today, so if it is allowed by law to get suppressors by acquiring SOT then yes it is a good plan. If we talking moral aspect, then I think that 8 month of waiting for suppressor for the guy who already owes three is a little bit overkill, but it is what it is.
If by law I don't have any annual sale minimums as sole proprietor, then I can get it. If that's not allowed by law, then not.
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