So I bought 16 pounds of the stuff.

Ran a test to get a comparative burn rate to H-335 which I understand some lots mimic.

Rifle was a 16" bbl PSA melonite middie.  Temperature about 30 degrees.  Snowing and blowing hard so I had to set up a little impromptu shed over the chronograph.

In past shooting, my "standard" load of 25 grains of H4895 has produced ~ 2956 fps in 16"carbine.

Control:  2 shots Federal M855 = 2906 fps

Handload common components = PMC fired cases, CCI400 primers, 55 grain FMJ bullets, OAL 2.12

H-335, 25 grains, Average of 11 shots = 2795 fps,  extreme spread 92
WC-844 Lot 91318, 25 grains, Average of 11 shots = 2633, extreme spread 105

Books citing H-335 indicate velocities of ~3200 fps w/ 25 grains under a 55 gr bullet.  Even assuming a 20" bbl was used, my can of H-335 is SLOW.  And my WC-844 is just plain sluggish. It would appear I can use H-335 data and be safe.  Cases visibly examined showed no indication of pressure signs.

Disclaimer;  military surplus powders are not canister powders so each lot must be treated as its own type.  Other lots may vary significantly.

The chronograph "shed":

yeah it took me 26gr WC844 to get near my 24.5 gr. h335 loads.

That setup is dedication.  I won't go anywhere if it's near 40 and certainly not in snow

Lot# 83018 by chance?   That is the lot I have, and it is quite a bit slower than H335 data.  I was comparing to Wolf Gold and I think I would need 27gr to match it.  I have seen an M193 data sheet that claims it is loaded with 27.8gr IIRC.

Also, I'm sure you will remember to account for your climate.

Testing during winter cold you will have to compensate for what happens on a hot summer day if you plan on loading for summer.

If you look at hodgdons online data under pistol for 223 they give 15" barrel velocity of 2799 at 25.3 gr h335.

That's about as close to real world results / speeds as i've ever seen posted.

In my limited testing my lot of WC844 so far has run right with h335  depending on the gun on a 89 degree day 30fps slower in one 5fps in another 4fps faster in another. .

16" stainless brl 2727 with 24.5gr under a 55gr sp hornady bullet.

From my limited testing / chrono work stainless and melonite brls have shot slower / lower velocity than same length chrome lined barrels. This has varried from 50 fps to 130 so each barrel and all that............

SD & ES were relatively consistent between them with h335 being lower in two guns.

That is interesting.  What shocked me was how slow my lot of H-335 is.  I've never used H-335 before.  My experience in .223 over the years has been with H4198, RL15, RL15 milsurp, AA2460, H4895 and maybe a couple others.  This was a surprise.

Getting there and back is part of the adventure...  





No. Lot was noted in the OP. My lot is much slower than my lot of slow 335.  

@chevrofreak Have you got a link to the data sheet?

I vaguely remember some data in one of the technical reports I printed off the DTIC site some years ago.  I have hard copies but will need mining equipment to sort thru them.  

But your 27.8 sounds possible.

Check this out for more:  https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/WC844_data_in_5_56/42-301020/  



Right on.  Yes, that's why I fired a couple shots of M855 for a control.  You will see there that the speed is "carbine-like" but not "pop-gun-like" as are my results with the WC844 load.    I will say that 30 degrees really isn't that cold.  Around here we get some days that are very cold {similar to northern Minnesota/ND, etc} but it doesn't last as long as in those places.  I avoid testing loads in really deep cold for the reason you say.  With some really sensitive powder at max loads I've seen trouble working up the load in moderate cold such as what we got yesterday and then shooting them in peak temps we get in summer like below:

@acman145acp  That's some interesting stuff there.

Might have to reshoot with a 20"gun just to see.  My chrome lined guns are carbines, too, so it would be interesting to compare, but man you are now starting to ask me to haul a lot of dead weight up to the range.  

My lot is slow, 26.1gr 844, lc brass, wolf srm primer, hornady 55gr fmjbt
16” 1/9 i was getting 2950ish when winchester white box 556 was right at 3100, my psa 16” mel 1/7 was 2890ish, the atk max was something crazy like 27 or 28 grains, massive variability with 844

Thanks for that.  OK, this is interesting.

Your situation looks similar to mine.  Where I'm at with my lot, I will be working up further.  I'd sure like to hit 2900 fps out of the carbine.  Might bring another rifle up to make comparisons, too.

Has anyone got a link to the ATK data?

My results mimic yours. I love the powder for loading in bulk for cheap loads, but fast it is not. FWIW I have read online (unverified) that it is loaded up to 28.5 gr in "M193" full power ammo- I am certain that was just for a particular lot but that is a full case. I'd have to dig out my velocity specs, but if you do a search you'll find the WC844 thread and the results from myself and others are in there.

Personal opinion: it's a great, cost effective powder if bought in bulk. By bulk, I mean a lot more than 16lb (made this mistake myself the first time trying it, but ya don't know until you try...) once you nail it down for that lot it makes fine ammo for cheap and you won't feel bad about loading thousands for plinking. It has done very well for me since finding that optimal load...which wasn't at "full power."

FWIW 26.5gr under a 55gr Hornady SPBT makes a nice all purpose load here for this lot. As stated previously, specs are in the WC844 thread.

ETA thread here

Summary: settled on 26.5 gr of this lot for 2963fps in 16"carbine CL barrel and 3,080 in 20" nitride rifle gas. CCI450s with LC 1x fired cases. Your lot is the same as mine after checking, but do work up carefully.

Woops, so it is.   I have seen multiple documents somewhere, but this one claims even more powder.

@LeadBreakfast

@chevrofreak

THANKS!

Very good material there.  I was mulling over 26.5 grains as a result of comparing my results with my load books.  Appears my lot is similar to BLC2 which would make it at the slow range of WC844 as I understand it.

Thanks very much to all you guys.

But it would make for more of your cool winter pictures .......... i always enjoy them

It will probably be june before i get it done but i want to take 15 ~ 223/556 guns and test them all same day etc and post the results.

Another oddity i've noticed in my limited testing my brothers 10.5 melonite gun shoots significantly lower sd/es than any barrel with the same load
24.5/ 55gr sp with either 335 or 844 it cut's those numbers in half or more.

Very interesting post all around.

I hope you get the chance to do that, too.  Would be really interesting.

I don't have that many but do have a few and it would be interesting, just to run some M855 thru all and see what's up.  Mmm.....  And idea...

@AR-Bossman

@chevrofreak

@RegionRat

@Chuck_Finley_IV

@acman145acp

@LeadBreakfast

Got up to the range with a 20"-er.  Melonite bbl, BTW.  38 degrees F.

Interesting results.

First, the results with my lot of WC844...

1}  Common components: Hornady 55 FMJBT, PMC cases, CCI400, OAL 2.12, WC-844/lot 91318

25 grains;  average 2822, extreme spread 75, 10 shots
26.5 grains;  average 3074, extreme spread 76, 10 shots
27 grains;  average 3105, extreme spread 70, 18 shots

Then on to some others...

2}  PMC Factory, 55 FMJ; average 2843, extreme spread 250, 5 shots  {wow...the ES...}

3}  My "standard" bait load to date...

Hornady 55 SP, H4895/25 grains, CCI400, OAL 2.215; average 3024, extreme spread 87, 7 shots

4}  Federal M855;  average 3058, extreme spread 39, 5 shots

Some pix from the excursion.

Gear loaded up.



On the way, snow's flyin'...



Across the creek, up the bank and on...



Gear gettin set up...



The rifle;  Franken gun with a 20" tube.  Melonite barrel...



Some targets.  Shot from sitting at 104 yards...



Always takes a while setting up the chrono and if you make a mistake, it means another chrono.  Once I misjudge the scope height on a Swedish Mauser 9.3x57 and sent a 285 grain Prvi Partizan round nose right thru the chronograph.



To be continued...

The Thing...



Fro some reason the Game Cam never got a pic of the shooting, but it as from sitting position...



Hot chocolate break...



Checking targets, on the way back.  Faster on skis...



Getting ready to put some lead downrange...



Gearing up for the haul home...



Getting on with it...

Curiosity, would the cold temperature account for change in velocity?

As I understand ,  extreme heat can cause excessive pressure with some powders and perhaps cold the opposite?

The pictures are great looks like you had a great time

Yes, but I don't know exactly how much.  The temps today were rather warm, mid to upper 30's.  That doesn't have a lot of impact on the velocity.  Get to 20 below and there may be a significant drop.  But again, with modern propellants, it is hard to say just how much.

I looked again at my jugs of WC-844 and we have the same lot number after all.

Looking at the data in a few load books, I think this stuff might be burning around the speed of BLC2.  Hard to say, but it burns slower than my lot of H-335.l

I know this stuff is temp sensitive, but I want to try to work up a load for the 5k RMR 3GH bullets I have.  I know it shoots great with a 55gr Z-max, so why not?

If it is running as slow as it seems to be, it should be excellent for 62's and probably the heavies, too.

The data sheets are on here somewhere, you gotta remember lake city got this stuff by the train load then would mix batches, the lots that were really slow were designated wc846 and used in m80, the faster wc844 and used in m193 and m855, m855a1 uses a new powder more like cfe223, im almost out, i got it when it was on sale for $59 per 8# jug, also my batch was brand new never loaded. My lot number is LC844 Lot011

Thanks for the report and pictures. Looks like a good time but lots of work.

I just loaded 500 more with this powder today, interested to see how different my results are when each charge is trickled from a Chargemaster versus dropped from a (very consistent) measure. That said, I won't be chronying anything until spring most likely with these temps...

I should mention I was pretty impressed with the 27 grain charge.  Still less than "spec" velocity but the ES was pretty low and if it doesn't give me pressure signs in the heat of summer I might go for it.  I am not interested in much more as I like to go as easy on my brass as I can to get the most loadings out of them.  Some years ago I worked up a dandy load using 2460 powder in the winter, but then started getting gas leakage and cratered primers in the summer.  Had to back off almost 2 grains in order to find a load that didn't give me hot weather pressure problems.

Today I just shot using 3x from sitting.  I'll test for accuracy the 26.5 and 27 grain loads when I get a chance.

ETA:  The 25 grain load using the WC-844 went 189 fps faster from the 20" barrel than in my 16" carbine.

For comparison, the M855 went 152 fps faster.

Wow! Talk about the opposite of being a couch potato!!! That burns some calories off!!!

Does your sitting position incorporate a sling? I see a left bias on your groups that might be sling pressure but I don't see a forward sling?

On a Service Rifle, there is a structural tube within the stock that makes it look like a regular rifle, but that tube prevents the sling from putting pressure on the stock which in turn keeps everything off the barrel.

I had some luck playing with ball powders like H380 and H335 in cold weather by using different primers till I found one that shrunk the SD the best.

It is worth experimenting with primers when using ball powders in general.

Really enjoyed seeing the photos of the trip. Good Luck!

@EVR

AWESOME pictures to go with the data first off.

I went and looked we have the same lot number of powder.

Now i’m really interested to see what  chrome lined 16 carbines produce with mine.

All of my testing has been with 10.5” brls except for on 16” stainless “prairie dog rig”

I just assumed the stainless would run slower since it did in the 10.5” .

Now i wonder if more is at play from twist rate to chamber etc.

I only have one set of twin guns and they are seperated by a couple years of manufacturing.

I will certainly tag you the next time i have more data.

@dryflash3  Thanks!

@RegionRat

I love to hike the mountains in the warm months and back country ski so I ski to hike and hike to ski. Sometimes I cheat and let my buddy do the heavy lifting...





We've been doing this for many years.  I used to drag the kids up, too, when they were growing up.  Here's one of my daughters many years ago hauling the gun sled in a blizzard on the way home from a day at the range.  Amazing what a guy learns about shooting in that sort of mess...



RE: Sling, I just took up the slack on the double slings to keep them from wobbling but applied no tension.  I didn't post my standard load but it was centered.  The M855's were closer, too.  The WC-844's shot to the left.  I'm left handed BTW so a tight sling tends to pull my shots the other way.  I have an ArmaLite National Match rifle as well so I'm familiar with the tube you reference, and just as you say, it does help.  I was just whacking away at the targets and trying to make sure I didn't shift my seat and shoot a nice MOA group thru my chronograph...

RE: PRIMERS....

Right on.  Notice I am using Standard primers, not Magnums and the latter are often recommended for the ball powders.  I have lots of Standards and don't have any Magnums so I just used what I have, but it might work out better as you say to try the Mags.

@acman145acp

I think twist rate might have some effect on pressure.  I know I've always been leery about older .223 data where the guns tested usually had 1/12 twist rates.  Initial and maybe peak{?} pressures would not be impacted but engaging the rifling IIRC occurs during the measured pressure curve.  I think you are right about how various guns might have a pretty dramatic impact on velocity and maybe internal ballistics as well.

In a way I'm glad this has panned out as it has, as I have several other calibers that I can use it is and the powder becomes a bit more useful to me in the "BLC2"-range than at the faster end of the spectrum.  I'll be careful testing there, but this helps give me an idea where to start.

And yes, please tag me on any of these milsurp powder threads!

Thanks!!

Next up will be some accuracy testing to see what's what...

Magnum probably isn't a bad idea.  I had a lot of hangfires at 25gr with S&B SRP.   At higher charges it went away.

Awesome. Your daughter will always remember her time on the mountain in snow.
And... great dog!

I agree with RegionRat on the temperature issue. Most ball powder is somewhat temperature sensitive.

Re-test at 70 degrees then again at 90 degrees and you'll likely see gains in velocity.

My .223 Rem plinking load with WC-844 is only 22gr. I found 2 accuracy nodes one at 22 another around 25 but my range is limited to 300 yards so velocity is not a priority. I went with the load that used less powder.

BTW: I've never had any ignition issues using any standard small rifle primer with this load.

Motor

Interesting.

For my rifles, no way I would even consider 22 gr as an option w/ this lot.  In fact, 25 grains is unacceptable to me as well.

My new powder is the same lot as yours and I just ran out of my old lot. So when it warms up outside, it's currently 14 degrees, I'll do a new work up with the .223 and 55gr FMJs to establish a new plinking accuracy load.

As I stated above velocity means little to me. Accuracy and function is all I care about to shoot clay pigeons and such mostly at 200 yards or less.

Very often less using iron sights.

Motor

I'm looking for start speeds exceeding 3000 fps from the rifle and accuracy.  My accuracy requirement draws from my need for my rifles to be reliable on ground squirrels I shoot for coyote bait.  They are small and demand good accuracy and good impact speeds to prevent losses. I don't see why getting 2 hundred feet increase in velocity would also necessarily come along with poor accuracy.

It would be interesting to do a comparative shoot with your two lots.  Say 22 or 25 grains for 10 shots of both over the chronograph.

EVR
Too late. My old lot is gone.

You know the 16" barrel is definitely negatively affecting your velocity. My Varmint AR has a 22" barrel. I get 3400fps with 50gr V-Max.

My son's is a A3 with 20" barrel. It's a standard rifle.

Motor

Yes, of course, as cited in my posts above.  Also the reason I want to keep muzzle velocities up past the 3000 speed in the rifle and preferably close to 2900 in the carbine.

Loaded 30 rounds with my standard rat bullet, Hornady 55 SP.  Will do some accuracy testing next.

Please update when you can. I use the Hornady 55gr SP as well.

Are you going to be using WC-844? It will be interesting to see if you can get 3000fps with it from your 16" barrel.

Motor

It's definitely doable. 26.5 gr of the same lot in a 16" barrel here averaged 2963 fps. I tested up to 27.2 with no issues in a 20" barrel, 27.2 grains showed an average velocity of 3,171. Didn't work up that high in the 16" as I got the results i needed at the lower charge.

For reference, 2015 production Federal LC xm193 chronoed at 3139fps and PMC Bronze at 2976fps through the same barrel on the same 65* day.

That is all very interesting stuff.

For my own work I'm not looking to get maximum velocities, but rather over 3000 in the rifle which will absolutely give me good enough velocity in the carbine for dependable expansion of the Hornady SP's. 26.5 gets that done, but I'm curious about that 27.0 grain load as well.

It's raining today so I'm setting up an experiment right now to test the 27.0 grain load at "Summer Temperatures" and will report my findings as soon as I get done.

@AR-Bossman

@chevrofreak

@dryflash3

@RegionRat

@Chuck_Finley_IV

@acman145acp

@LeadBreakfast

@Motor1

As promised.

I decided to run a little test to see what the 27 grain load might look like at our high peak temps in summer.

Toward that end, I loaded 5 rounds with Hornady 55 SP, 27 grains WC-844 Lot 91318, PMC case, CCI 400 primer.

I heated the oven up to 125 degrees and then place the 5 rounds in the oven for 45 minutes.  Then I got to thinking opening and closing the door might cause a loss of heat, so I bumped it up to 130 for about 10 minutes.



During the heating of the cartridges, I also heated the rifle since a cold rifle would quickly reduce the heat contained in the round once-loaded into the chamber.  This was accomplished by leaving the rifle near the blower on the fireplace insert and additionally applying a hair dryer to the metal parts.  I cannot gauege what temperature these parts reched, but can say the rifle was quite warm/hot to the touch.





Then, shooting into the chronograph from off the back porch, I recorded velocities from 10 feet.



Pictorial results as follows:

All 5 fired 27 grain-charged cases;



Closeup of 27 grain-charged case primer;



Closeup of normal-looking, previously fired case primer shot at 38 degrees F;



Velocity average of the 5 shots:  3291 fps
Extreme spread of the 5 shots:  82 fps
High: 3323
Low: 3241

Conclusions:

The 27 grain load is too heavy for my use.  We often get temps near the ground of way over 100 degrees in bright sunlight and this load obviously causes pressures to rise enough to cause cratering and some flattening of the primers at the higher temperatures.  I would imagine case life would also suffer which is a concern as well.

It started raining heavy and my chronograph was getting wet so I ceased operations. The relatively minor cratering and flattening of the 27 grain charge gives me the hunch that I will be OK at 26.5 grains but if I get another chance, might test that charge similarly.  I'd prefer not to go much below that.  I have 30 rounds loaded with the 26.5 grain charge and I'll run those thru my heavy barrel ArmaLite M15 National Match with the Leupold 4.5-14 scope and see what I get.

I quickly tried to piece your data together.

Using wc844 your comparison results were

1) Heated you got an avg velocity of 3291fps?

2)  in the cold you got 2600fps  ?

@Firefoxammo

Sorry, no:

Here are the results:

38 Degrees:
27 grains; average 3105, extreme spread 70, 18 shots, rounded primers

125 Degrees:
27 grains; average 3291, extreme spread 82 fps, 5 shots, flattened, cratered primers

186 fps difference.

What primer, were there any ejector swiped on the case head?

See Posted: Today 10:53:54 AM PST

It's in the post;  CCI 400.

See pix of the case heads in post.  As you see, nothing but the slight cratering and flattening.

Really neat experiment thanks for posting results.

Those primers actually don't look too bad considering they are 400s which are good primers but are know to be a little on the soft side.

As stated above I have 16lbs of the same lot number WC-844 so this was very interesting.

Thanks again.

Motor

No problem!  It was a fun little project.

Regarding primers, I agree.

I wondered what 450's might look like.  IIRC the primer cup is thicker on the 450's.

At any rate, it gives me some confidence to proceed loading the 26.5 grain charge if it is accurate.

Obviously, all standard safety protocols apply.  These appear to be ok for my rifles but may not be for others.

Those primers don't look too bad for being a 400.  I would be more concerned about them piercing.    I have never seen primers that flat with my S&B's, they simply have a tendency to leave the case if the charge is too hot...

I am just going to stick with 26.5 myself.

Interesting experiment, thank you for sharing the results.

Can't say I'm surprised by the 400's showing pressure signs like that, but if you're looking for pressure signs the softer primers during work-up are a good way to monitor that. Having played with the 400's, rem 7 1/2s, and the 450's, my go to now for all 5.56 loads is the 450. I still stock others just for tinkering but have no need to change what works at this time when I haven't seen any better results from others.

For what it is worth (and I'm not advocating this, purely informational) the 400s might

"possibly" have a use as a SPP if you're into supply consolidation. Plenty of info on the web that will confirm that as well as testing by someone who certainly was not me.

It would be nice to push into those higher velocities but as you noted it simply isn't necessary with the Hornady 55gr SPBT. They are terminally effective to much lower velocities. In my opinion, there is a lot to like about this load. A devastating, fairly accurate load for .16cpr (if your brass is free by my calculations) can do just about anything you might need it to do short of precision or long range work. The cost/effectiveness ratio is high IMO, it's my "stack it deep" hand load around here.

Further testing data: at the previously mentioned 65*, this load showed an ES of 26 and SD of 9 (without crimp) or 10 (with a light crimp). Granted, this was only in a ten shot string so obviously the significance of the data is limited, but that's better than needed for plinking, pesting, and all around work IMO. Sometimes cheap and simple can be effective.

Those primers have thin cups, they will most likely  blow before you reach 556 levels of pressure.