I know this has been asked, holy crap, you want a different answer just read a different thread. I am pretty much up to speed on most NFA, but since I am old school I never went down the VFG road and have a lack of understanding of the legality and intricacies.

Here is my simple question and situation;

Have a CZ Scorpion pistol, early model when the U.S. offering was just the pistol;

Have an approved SBR tax stamp in hand, approved Form 1 list OAL as 26"

Can I put a VFG on my CZ SBR and not run afoul of AOW, whatever else I am missing _____________________?

Thanks, I know this has been discussed but convoluted discussions is an understatement.

If you have your approved SBR stamp you are good to go. VFG/no VFG, stock/no stock, doesn't matter.

If it's an approved SBR then yes. AOW has nothing to do with it.

When it is configured as an SBR, yes, when it is configured as a pistol, no.

This was approved so long ago I almost forgot I had it

Thanks for the comments and any one else feel free to chime in!

On a related note, recommended VFG for this setup.

I am not sure I even want one but I wanted to give it a try, it will have an Octane 9 hanging off the front end at least to see how it works.

When the Scorpion came out I saw it on-line

Saw it in person and bought on the spot, very rare for me to impulse buy a firearm.

It is a horrible pistol (measured trigger pull right at spec 9lbs) but now that I am getting around to getting it ready to run I think I am going to like it.

Wouldn’t the SBR stamp trump the AOW stamp, in this case?  Meaning he could have features that would otherwise make it an AOW, but the SBR stamp permits these even when the stock is detached.

Sort of how an MG trumps AOWs and SBRs.

The stamp does not make it an SBR. Actually configuring it makes an SBR. Until it is made as a SBR, it is still a pistol. No VFG on a pistol.

So your saying if I take my registered MG, put on an upper with a 10.5” barrel, and then swap in semi auto fire control group... that I have an illegal unregistered SBR?

Once a MG always a MG

MGs can have any barrel length

Even with a semi trigger installed, its still a MG

No I am saying if you put a VFG on a pistol you have made an AOW, not sure what your MGs have to do with the OP Scorpion Pistol.

If it's a registered SBR and you take the stock off, you have a Weapon Made From A Rifle, which is still an SBR per ATF. It can be treated as a pistol if it's not in an SBR configuration, but taking the stock off an SBR that's shorter than 26" OAL doesn't make it an AoW.

If the stock is attached to your registered SBR there is no ambiguity and you can clearly have a vertical foregrip on it.

In terms of can you shoot your registered SBR sans stock but with a vertical foregrip attached I could see both sides of the argument here.

If the SBR was originally made from a rifle than its always a SBR whether the stock is attached or not. To the best of my knowledge the ATF won’t knowingly accept a AOW registration from a gun that started off life as a rifle or shotgun with a stock.

On the other hand, pistols can go to rifle Configuration and back to pistol thanks to the Thompson Center case.

Its also pretty pretty clear that the ATF doesn’t believe a SBR is still under SBR NFA rules if it’s not configured as such as they have provided guidance regarding traveling to other states with no 5320.20 if the SBR is back in Title 1 configuration and/or selling a former SBR with no NFA transfer if the SBR returned to Title-1 form.

So if you removed the stock from your former Scorpion Pistol… now registered SBR….. the commonly accepted outcome is that the SBR legally revert back to pistol status.   Technically, if you add a foregrip to a pistol than you made an AOW, even it was an SBR at one point.  This is no different than if you SBR a pistol, decide you no longer want to own it, remove the stock, sell it to somebody else as a title 1 firearm, and they decide to add a foregrip and register it as an AOW.

However, if you have a stock that fits a pistol and no other legal home/use for it…..than you are still considered to have a SBR in your possession regardless of whether you have the stock attached or not.  The government has sought prosecutions on these terms (pistol with stock that fits but not attached) and won.   The most recent case I am aware of is the guy in Arkansas who drew the short straw..

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Arkansas___Man_gets_30_month_sentence_for_possession_of_unregistered_SBR/5-1869992/

My personal take is that as long as you maintain possession of the stock that fits your SBR, the pistol is an SBR in the eyes of the law regardless of whether you temporarily physically remove the stock from the receiver.   As an example, I don’t believe I make an illegal AOW ever time I remove the stock off my MP5K to clean it (assuming I don’t remove the vertical foregrip first).

From a prosecution standpoint I find it very unlikely that the government is going to want case law on the books that essentially says that a Pistol isnt an SBR if you have a pistol and a stock that fits it in your immediate possession but “they just were not pinned together” at the exact moment barney fife walked up to you…..which is basically what the government is saying if they were to try and prosecute somebody for an illegal AOW because they took the stock off a registered SBR but the vertical foregrip was still attached and they had the stock in their possession.

From a practical standpoint I doubt the govnment would waste time prosecuting somebody for an illegal AOW if the firearm in question was registered as an SBR and was at least capable of accepting a commercially available stock of some sort.  (i.e. not a zip gun, etc.)  much less if they have the stock with them.

My take if you want to be extra safe and shoot your scorpion pistol with a vertical foregrip but without the stock attached, is to just keep the stock in your possession.

Thanks to all for the comments, it is greatly appreciated.

I have a factory stock and 922R kit from early on when CZ still sold them as a kit.  I imagine once the stock goes on it stays on as it is horrid in pistol configuration.

All the info has been very helpful, and more comments are welcome.

As far as contradictions, this seems to be normal when dealing with BATFE, depends how they want to look at an issue.

Exactly this.  A Weapon Made From A Rifle can have a VFG, is not an AOW, and does not have to have a stock.

There is no contradiction.

If you make an SBR from a firearm that left the factory as a "rifle" it generally means you cut, modified, or replaced the barrel with one less than 16” in length.  (with the oddball exception of somebody who manages to make a SBR with a greater than 16" barrel but still manages to make the overall length less than 26")

Therefore if you remove the stock from a SBR that started life as a Title 1 Rifle…..its still an SBR because it started of life as a rifle and still has barrel length under 16".  Whether the stock is attached is irrelevant.

However, if you wanted to return a rifle based SBR to title 1 status the only way to do that is to replace the barrel back to one that is over 16”, which has nothing to do with the status of the stock.

For a SBR that was made from a pistol, if you remove the stock it can revert back to a legal title 1 pistol.   This isn’t possible with a  rifle based SBR as the mere presence of the less that 16” barrel makes it a SBR.

So for a SBR originally made from a pistol its possible to just remove the stock to revert it back to title 1 status.

To recap:

A SBR made from a rifle is always a SBR as long as the barrel is less than 16” regardless of the stock status.

The only way to make rifle based SBR back into a title 1 firearm is to replace the barrel with one longer than 16”.  You can’t take a title 1 rifle, register it as a SBR and cut the barrel, and then decide to remove the stock and claim it’s a title 1 pistol.

A SBR made from a pistol is only an SBR when the stock is attached.

The pistol based SBR can be moved back to title 1 status via two methods.

1.Remove and dispose of the stock.  (bringing it back to a title 1 pistol configuration)
2.Replace the barrel with one longer than 16” and keep the stock.  (bringing it into compliance as a title 1 rifle configuration)

Hope this helps clarify.

I can make a 100% IDENTICAL firearm that is a pistol. Two IDENTICAL firearms, one is an SBR, one is a pistol, that is the contradiction.

From that perspective, very true.

No worries, from the way it was quoted it looked to me like there was some actual misunderstanding between the two scenarios.

Once Renegade rephrased this NFA regulatory dichotomy in his terms, the lightbulb went off for me.

Why has nobody explained that the receiver needs engraving too???

I have been told that I have that effect.

That wasn't the question  but you are correct. Also 922r was not mentioned until I (as OP) mentioned it later in the thread.

In my humble uneducated opinion I believe this is the correct answer. Once it’s an SBR I would think it’s always an SBR. That said, who in their right mind would ever use this as a pistol after having an approved form 1 on it?  It’s a blast as a suppressed SBR.

It's not. It can be Title I again, whenever.

People make their SBRs into Title I pistols or rifles to take them out-of-state without needing a 5320.20

SBRs can become SBS, DD, MG (SOT), or revert back to Title I, etc.

So just to be clear as mud here one more time.

A factory CZ Scorpion PISTOL that was Form 1'd into an SBR can go back to a PISTOL configuration by just the addition of a brace in lieu of stock. Correct?

A Form 1'd SBR can legally cross state lines with no notification as long as configured as PISTOL?

https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/transport-a-title-ii-as-a-title-1-across-state-lines.pdf