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Posted: 6/1/2018 1:05:44 PM EDT
I have a gen 3 PVS-14 with ir lights/lasers ect. And love it think it’s a huge force multiplier. I have a survival/SHTF “group” and have been trying to convince them to buy night vision and they’ve all played with mine they agree it would be a huge advantage if we all had them. But understandably they all can’t afford a $4,000+ setup.
This is what I’ve come up with so far Sub $1k Spark core-$450 Pt bravo W/shroud-$85 Rhino II-$30(ebay) J-arm-$20 (eBay) JDAPT Adapter-$25 Otal Ir laser-$360 Ir illuminators on rifle and head mounts not sure on which ones? What’s your thoughts? |
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I spent a pretty big chunk of change on thermal awhile back, and wanted a low end NV to go with it. Found a Bushnell 4.5-40 Equinox for $245 on eBay. Haven't shot it yet but I did walk around at night looking through it and I'd say it's worth the extremely low price I paid compared to my $4500 thermal.
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IMHO any NV is better than no NV, but keep in mind the Spark Core is severely handicapped in dark conditions without additional IR. If your the only ones that have NV your GTG, if not lighting up your area with IF to see you become a huge bullet magnet. If you upped the cost a little you can find used/build a Gen 3 unit. There have been several no gated Gen 3 units on the EE from 1k and up or fleabay PVS7 for 1,200. As for the OTAL-C IR you can find them for 299.00 new. For IR light on a budget you can build a SolarForce IR flashlight that will accept SureFire tailcaps and switches for under 30.00. Streamlight also has a couple of good IR lights under 40.00. If your looking for SHTF head mount for a standard head crusher will work, is a bit more packable vs a bump helmet, usually very cheap/free with purchace and allows you to save for a Crye Night Cap which is IMHO the best packable system you'll find for SHTF.
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Let me answer a question with a question......Once you possess this gear will you use it? Meaning will you alot money and time and other resources to attending dedicated basic and advanced level NV classes. I say this because having a tool like NV is fine and dandy but unless you get training under your belt you dont know what you dont know. Be able to maximize its use so that should SHTF you can effectively employ such an expensive investment.
If youre not going to alot energy/resources for training Id recommend not making the investment. Hows that? from a guy who makes his living on trying to get people to buy Night Vision. I would also recommend saving your money and not buying the setup you are wanting, youre about to be severely disappointed with the performance of what youre going to get. |
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The Spark is a great unit for what it is, but it’s not a great tactical unit. If you’re poking around the woods, hunting pests, just goofing around, it makes a great option for a great price. But for a situation where bullets may be coming back, it’s really really limited. It probably is better than nothing but I’d save another few hundred and buy a used Gen2 or preferably Gen3 unit. The difference is significant. And when it matters, the extra quality will be worth more than the price difference
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Let me answer a question with a question......Once you possess this gear will you use it? Meaning will you alot money and time and other resources to attending dedicated basic and advanced level NV classes. I say this because having a tool like NV is fine and dandy but unless you get training under your belt you dont know what you dont know. Be able to maximize its use so that should SHTF you can effectively employ such an expensive investment. If youre not going to alot energy/resources for training Id recommend not making the investment. Hows that? from a guy who makes his living on trying to get people to buy Night Vision. I would also recommend saving your money and not buying the setup you are wanting, youre about to be severely disappointed with the performance of what youre going to get. View Quote |
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IMHO any NV is better than no NV, but keep in mind the Spark Core is severely handicapped in dark conditions without additional IR. If your the only ones that have NV your GTG, if not lighting up your area with IF to see you become a huge bullet magnet. If you upped the cost a little you can find used/build a Gen 3 unit. There have been several no gated Gen 3 units on the EE from 1k and up or fleabay PVS7 for 1,200. As for the OTAL-C IR you can find them for 299.00 new. For IR light on a budget you can build a SolarForce IR flashlight that will accept SureFire tailcaps and switches for under 30.00. Streamlight also has a couple of good IR lights under 40.00. If your looking for SHTF head mount for a standard head crusher will work, is a bit more packable vs a bump helmet, usually very cheap/free with purchace and allows you to save for a Crye Night Cap which is IMHO the best packable system you'll find for SHTF. View Quote |
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Thanks Good Info. I’m thinking there a very few civilians with night vision. No hog hunting in my area so that would leave some cops and military guys. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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IMHO any NV is better than no NV, but keep in mind the Spark Core is severely handicapped in dark conditions without additional IR. If your the only ones that have NV your GTG, if not lighting up your area with IF to see you become a huge bullet magnet. If you upped the cost a little you can find used/build a Gen 3 unit. There have been several no gated Gen 3 units on the EE from 1k and up or fleabay PVS7 for 1,200. As for the OTAL-C IR you can find them for 299.00 new. For IR light on a budget you can build a SolarForce IR flashlight that will accept SureFire tailcaps and switches for under 30.00. Streamlight also has a couple of good IR lights under 40.00. If your looking for SHTF head mount for a standard head crusher will work, is a bit more packable vs a bump helmet, usually very cheap/free with purchace and allows you to save for a Crye Night Cap which is IMHO the best packable system you'll find for SHTF. Quoted:
The Spark is a great unit for what it is, but it’s not a great tactical unit. If you’re poking around the woods, hunting pests, just goofing around, it makes a great option for a great price. But for a situation where bullets may be coming back, it’s really really limited. It probably is better than nothing but I’d save another few hundred and buy a used Gen2 or preferably Gen3 unit. The difference is significant. And when it matters, the extra quality will be worth more than the price difference |
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It’s not me who I have to convince it’s guys who want to puke at the price of an aimpoint. And are more likely to buy a holosun.
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And those are the folks you want to rely on in an oh shiite situation?
ETA: D/R the above. I understand that budget doesn't define character. |
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It’s not me who I have to convince it’s guys who want to puke at the price of an aimpoint. And are more likely to buy a holosun. View Quote Honestly, your better off doing some training that you mentioned (patrolling, etc) and learning to work WITHOUT NV first, versus getting everyone jacked up on some poor quality 1st Gen. Being old school, I'm still of the opinion it's better to learn to operate at night well WITHOUT NV and then later add quality NV in. Too often people aren't even comfortable outside at night, but buy NV thinking it's this magic item that will set them apart. If other skills are lacking, they are still going to be lacking. If these guys can't change mags at dark without NV, they aren't be much better with NV. The by product of regular training is as you get these guys training regularly, maybe attending some good schools, etc. they will SEE the cheap gear choices fail on them most likely and will then UNDERSTAND the need not to cut corners. A lot of people get into preparing as a side pursuit without truly thinking through the situations they claim to be preparing for. The ultimate goal is to live and prevail, yet few actually ACT based on that. Making lists of shit they are never going to buy or things they are never going to do isn't preparedness. Unfortunately with all the doomsday dunskies TV shows and resulting non sense, this general idea has become skewed by those that don't know any better. Get them training regularly and this sort of thing will work itself out over time. Also, never forget, people WILL spend money on what is truly important to them. Good luck. |
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Could always pick up a used or blemished pvs-14 for around $1000-2000, combine it with an ACH and surplus rhino mount and you have a cost effective setup.
With that said if you don't train and shoot with it then NV will be of little help in SHTF, working with your gear, moving and shooting at night is difficult and will be 10x that on a two way range. The avg gun owner is probably better off using a high lumen weapon light like a sure fire scout light. |
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I think Lowdown3 hit the nail on the head. If you are a civilian self-defense group, preparing for come-what-may, I would suggest coming up with a list of mission objectives (such as interdicting hostiles before they reach your homes), and then establish a METL (Mission Essential Task List), which will guide training to obtain the skill sets necessary to accomplish your mission. Once this is done, you can prioritize between training, weapons, and equipment which support these objectives.
It is more important for your guys to have the skill sets to operate, at night, on a full mission profile (such as a security patrol) with basic individual and team training (using the mk 1 mod 0 eyeball), before getting into advanced individual and team training, which might include NV. I know this is a NV forum, and as such, the emphasis is on the gear here, but, if this is more than a hobby to you, then other considerations come into play. Not trying to dissuade you away from NV; far from it. Just saying priorities in training come into play. I have gone through this recently myself. I became so focused on NV that I kinda lost sight of the main objective, which for me is also local self-defense training. So I am re-focusing on training in all likely light conditions, not just low light. So when that time comes for you guys to look at NV, agree with Sam; for tactical applications, I think there is a certain minimum level of performance required. If at all possible, you should aim for decent gen 3 performance in a passive IR environment. But that being said, something is better than nothing; just so you are aware of the limitations of using active IR to illuminate on patrol. It will give you some capability, but not nearly as much as being passive. At least until things go loud. A lot depends on your enemy's likely capabilities, so good intel comes into play here as well. Your intel chief should be working on what groups you might run into, in a WROL sit, and plan accordingly. For now, something is better than nothing. After your team can accomplish a full patrol, at night, to a standard, then you could rotate the NV into the mix, as different guys wear them on point and get some time under them. This might even motivate the guys to sell the jet ski and get some of their own . |
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Let me answer a question with a question......Once you possess this gear will you use it? Meaning will you alot money and time and other resources to attending dedicated basic and advanced level NV classes. I say this because having a tool like NV is fine and dandy but unless you get training under your belt you dont know what you dont know. Be able to maximize its use so that should SHTF you can effectively employ such an expensive investment. If youre not going to alot energy/resources for training Id recommend not making the investment. Hows that? from a guy who makes his living on trying to get people to buy Night Vision. I would also recommend saving your money and not buying the setup you are wanting, youre about to be severely disappointed with the performance of what youre going to get. View Quote |
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You might be better off spending some of that $ on quality lights and bringing in a trainer for your group than just tossing NV at everyone. Sam is spot on with his comments.
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Couple things in play here.
What is your level of low/no-light operations/NV experience? Sounds like you have decent enough gear, but how familiar are you with using it, have you had any training, classes, etc.? Remember that in the grand scheme of things, every single guy having NV is a relatively new concept, as long as you've trained properly for it, a single guy with NV equipment leading/integrated into a team that does not all have NV can still be a very effective force multiplier, but as with anything else, these things have to be trained to be executed to best effect. What a lot of members have already said is all true: - The equipment is nothing more than a novelty toy if you don't train with it and use it, possibly even a liability - For most people, operating in the dark is a whole new bag, and many people simply are not comfortable with it--in order to be comfortable with NVDs, you first have to have a certain amount of comfort without them, if you shit your pants at the first weird noise in the dark, having NODs isn't going to make you less afraid of the dark, that's just not what they do--they can make you even more paranoid, a Blair Witch Project kind of deal where you're trembling in your Birkenstocks trying to see everything all around you through a toilet paper tube of a 40o FOV device. - Some people simply think the equipment/capability is "cool," but don't value it enough to make it a priority/make the necessary sacrifices to acquire it--I know I sold off a lot of stuff to get into personally owned NV, I had to make the conscious decision to sell stuff that was less important to me, but was still a significant investment, very few people have $4-$10,000 to just throw around when they want something new I'm with ya on trying to convince people who, for whatever reason, don't want to come off the cash for proper equipment--your guys puking at the price of an Aimpoint damn near gave me flashbacks. Ultimately, if you want your buddies to "get into" NV, it sounds like more so than anything else, you're going to have to change their mentalities and make them understand what a potent tool NV is. Understand too, that you may not be successful, you simply may not change some minds, and some, let's be realistic, will never be able to afford a Gen. 3 device and the associated support equipment, it just is what it is. That being said, a good first step to changing their minds and mentalities might simply be to do some more night training--without NVDs. Do all the things you think you might need/want to do, and do them at night. You may figure out who was never really committed in the first place just by doing this--a lot of guys won't mind playing around and being "make-believe-militia" on a bright, sunny Saturday, but will be unwilling to put in the time and effort to train nights when, especially when it's uncomfortable, they're getting tired, there's stuff on TV, etc. From there, you can introduce the use of your own NVD once everyone's got some experience under their belts with how difficult and different operating at night can be. Guys that are paying attention will notice how much of an advantage you have with your NVD, even if you're using it in a team context without 100% organic NVDs, and if they value those capabilities, they'll begin to seek it out on their own/probably ask you for advice on how to "get on your level." Finally, you may or may not want to introduce Force-on-Force with airsoft guns or something like that, where, once again, they can plainly see the advantages of operating with NVDs versus without. Of course, this is not a quick, easy process, you're going to have to do a lot of work to change people's fundamental priorities in life, and you may never accomplish it. Moreover, be it military, LE, or legally armed and prepared civilians, getting a unit into fighting shape is not an easy task by any measure, this is why it has traditionally been a job for some of our most elite service-members--everyone wants to hear about door-kicking and "gangsta shit," but one of the Special Forces' core missions is advising and training. ~Augee |
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Damn Augie, I always enjoyed your posts in the past, but now that you're getting paid to post, its seems like there is going to be a lot more worthwhile reading on here than typical.
Many good points. It really does boil down to how much NV is wanted...dont make enough? I got a side job, sold other toys, stopped drinking beer and energy drinks, bring a lunch, etc. I also drive an older truck, have a 12 yr old boat, that sort of thing(the wife does have a new JK though). It may not seem like much, but that adds up surprisingly quickly. I also try to integrate NV/thermal into my life(and my family's) in as many ways as possible to help lower the collective cost. We have hiked, canoed, kayaked, taken out the boat or Polaris, walk the dogs, bring in firewood and many other tasks. Hell, its pretty cool to just take them out and watch the satelites and shooting stars. Getting out to shoot, train and hunt is the easy part. |
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Augee brings up a good point, among many. It was not that far back in the past, where a squad-sized patrol might be lucky to have two pair of NV devices. So maybe the Point and TL (Team Leader), or maybe the Point and the ATL (Assistant Team Ldr) at the rear. Just getting 1-2 devices makes a huge difference in what the patrol can see. Everybody having a pair of -14's is a relatively new development. So you're really not that far off with one pair; one more guy gets some and your capabilities are actually pretty good.
I have gone through similar issues with this stuff in the past. Just getting guys to come up with a basic load out is hard, much less NV equipment. But you gotta work with what you have. Or move to the Redoubt! |
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I'm not sure it's been mentioned, perhaps I just missed it... but someone with top-tier NV probably won't use IR illumination much unless they need to specifically look at something.
If you're outdoors with older gear that require illumination to see anything-- there's two disadvantages. One being you still can't see that far, and the second is someone with NV is going to see you blasting light everywhere. At 600 yards with an L3 WP 14 and a moderately clear night, I could probably miss someone walking along a treeline on the edge of an open field. If they were using IR, it would be next to impossible to miss. |
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I own a SPARK CORE unit and I'll tell you now they are going to be disappointing if they've used your Gen3 unit. Part of my job was to maintain NV units at the squadron level so I have a lot of time behind AN/AVS-9s. But I still bought a SPARK. Hey I never said I was smart ;)
Anyway. For a Gen1 unit the SPARK is probably at the top of the heap. It has probably the best resolution of any Gen1 unit I've ever looked though, and comes pretty close to Gen3 resolution as tested though a Hoffman 20/20 test box. It falls flat on it's face in the light amplification department. You HAVE to use an IR illuminator. The unit has one built on BUT it's for very close range stuff if you want to see further than across the room you are going to need a separate illuminator. It has a narrow field of view compared to something like a PVS14 by about 5 degrees, which may not sound like a lot but in practical use it feels like quite a bit to me, and you get a little "fish eye" (not bad but you can see it there) around the edges which reduces the useable field of view even more. It's one of the more expensive Gen1 units on the market. You're 1/4 to a gen2 PVS-14 unit and a 1/6 or so the way to a gen 3 PVS-14 unit for the cost of the SPARK CORE. I've enjoyed my SPARK CORE and still use it but I've started putting 100 dollars a payday into a savings account so I can at least get a Gen 2 unit in the future. |
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I own a SPARK CORE unit and I'll tell you now they are going to be disappointing if they've used your Gen3 unit. Part of my job was to maintain NV units at the squadron level so I have a lot of time behind AN/AVS-9s. But I still bought a SPARK. Hey I never said I was smart ;) Anyway. For a Gen1 unit the SPARK is probably at the top of the heap. It has probably the best resolution of any Gen1 unit I've ever looked though, and comes pretty close to Gen3 resolution as tested though a Hoffman 20/20 test box. It falls flat on it's face in the light amplification department. You HAVE to use an IR illuminator. The unit has one built on BUT it's for very close range stuff if you want to see further than across the room you are going to need a separate illuminator. It has a narrow field of view compared to something like a PVS14 by about 5 degrees, which may not sound like a lot but in practical use it feels like quite a bit to me, and you get a little "fish eye" (not bad but you can see it there) around the edges which reduces the useable field of view even more. It's one of the more expensive Gen1 units on the market. You're 1/4 to a gen2 PVS-14 unit and a 1/6 or so the way to a gen 3 PVS-14 unit for the cost of the SPARK CORE. I've enjoyed my SPARK CORE and still use it but I've started putting 100 dollars a payday into a savings account so I can at least get a Gen 2 unit in the future. View Quote I have seen some PVS-7s with blemish tubes on eBay for $999. Some of the blends would never be acceptable, some you could probably live with, especially if you bought it with one of the 20% off deals that pop up on eBay frequently. |
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I lingered and just got a pvs 14 for 1500 in the ee. Much better. Then I set it up on a airsoft helmet (flame suit on) and run it that way, works great. I aleo have the holosun simple ir laser unit, the 250 one, on both my mk18 clone and scar 17, they work great and hold zero so far! I think for under 2k that is a real world set up that is usable. I would be comfortable with in a shtf situation
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I lingered and just got a pvs 14 for 1500 in the ee. Much better. Then I set it up on a airsoft helmet (flame suit on) and run it that way, works great. I aleo have the holosun simple ir laser unit, the 250 one, on both my mk18 clone and scar 17, they work great and hold zero so far! I think for under 2k that is a real world set up that is usable. I would be comfortable with in a shtf situation View Quote |
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Hey man depending on what you're doing, the cheap bump helmets may work for ya. I like that skull crusher mod. The best thing you can do to one of them is cut it up. I guess you could also mount a piece of it to a helmet! But at least you have a mil-spec bayo mount for your NVD. I just don't like trusting a toy helmet with 3K+ worth of equipment dangling from it. If the shroud to mount interface is sketchy, then I'd upgrade. Before you eat the damn thing (at best) or drop it on the deck.
Someone mention active IR again. Depends on the enemy sit and threat level. If all you will probably run into are hood rats out scavenging, then you'd probably be all right with it. Even if they can catch glimpses of it, they probably won't be sophisticated enough to do a coordinated maneuver on you. With good IA drills you could probably break contact and Charlie Mike. If you run into someone more sophisticated, then yeah, it would be like using white lights. So yeah, they would probably see you coming and perhaps set up on you, but then again, if it's friendlies, I would try and verbally challenge someone with even basic NV, rather than just light them up. My thinking would be these guys are possible friendlies so give them a chance to declare intentions. So depending on your ROE's, or I guess their rules of engagement, hopefully you would get a challenge not a bullet. Here is where gathering intel on your AO beforehand will be invaluable. Maybe even some rudimentary IFF established between groups. If nothing else, some IR flags to declare your allegiance. For example, if I see some dudes with IR flag patches, I would be more inclined to consider them as good guys, as opposed to some Antifa assholes, or just mk 1 mod 0 looters. So sure going passive is the optimum solution, but what the hell, if you are running gen 1+ with active IR illum, use the proper T,T,P's, same as you would with white light; on and scan, and move. The point being, ok, they know you're around, so maneuver; just don't sit there and be a stationary target. But just be aware this is the 50% solution. Getting passive NV should be the ultimate goal. |
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I try to avoid the super-reactionary "oh my god, if you don't have the very best and latest super-widget you're definitely going to die!!!" noise that a lot of the "tactical" industry is built on.
Use the best gear that you can acquire/afford and give yourself as many advantages as you possibly can, sure, but given that we often discuss potentially life and death scenarios and hypotheticals, there's sometimes a tendency towards hyperbole that borders on irrational. Again, the crux of the issue is training and tactics. For obvious reasons, I and many others won't go into too much detail on those things on open forums, which then leaves the bulk of the discussion being technical comparisons at best, a lot of "uh huh!" and "nuh uh!" discussions and purse swinging at worst. Something to consider, though, is that noise and light discipline doesn't necessarily have to mean the absolute absence of these things, for starters, in a lot of ways, it's fundamentally impossible--I'm sorry, but an infantry squad moving through the brush at night is never going to be 100% noiseless, but a well disciplined and trained unit is a lot quieter than one that is not. Even while practicing noise and light discipline without NODs, I had an "L"-shaped flashlight and a damn whistle strapped to me, not to mention a decidedly "not quiet" weapon--there's a time and a place for these things, noise and light discipline is about knowing where and when those are. The issue with active IR emissions is that many have been lulled into forgetting these long-honed lessons and lost that discipline in the erroneous and arrogant assumption of absolute technological superiority. Worked super well for us in Vietnam... We've assumed that others don't have the technology, so we've gotten sloppy, and have learned, sometimes through hard lessons and failure, that this is increasingly not the case, and probably never was the case in the first place. But it also doesn't mean that we can never ever ever use them. This goes back to learning to do things in the dark without the technology in the first place--because it's easier to learn those lessons and get that discipline first, then integrate the technology, than to have all the technology and then try to learn how and when and where to use it and not use it. I spent a lot of early years in Francis Marion National Forest, I bet the ol' Swamp Fox and his boys could still make a mess of a bunch of folks dicking around with PVS-14s but with no idea what they were doing with just what they had back in the day--imagine if you gave them and taught 'em how to use modern toys... ~Augee |
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True dat. Due to many reasons, we sometimes put the cart before the horse. While I agree with Augee about opsec, about 99%, I would add that just as we assumed the oppo didn't know didley about tech such as NV, we sometimes assume he doesn't store any knowledge of our T,T,P's as well. Sometimes in our attempts to protect operational procedures, we end up hiding it from good, qualified civilians as well; the oppo may already be very aware of them!
Case in point, for us, as armed civilians in a WROL type scenario (think Katrina here), you have many former servicemen, who have re-joined their old gangs and brought a lot of tactical knowledge with them. So the possibility exists that you may run up against some very tactically sophisticated gang bangers out there, taking advantage of the breakdown of law and order. So if we, in our effort to keep T,T,P's from the wrong folks, also keep them from the "right" ones, we end up doing a disservice to the very people we are suppose to protect. Now granted, open forum may be the wrong place for it, but some venue should exist for "qualified" civilians to learn this stuff. But to Augee's point, owning the skill sets that will allow you to accomplish the mission, in this case conduct a security patrol around your neighborhood, at night, during a WROL type situation, is far more important than all the doo dads we just love to gob on about. So within this context, the mission essential skills are far more important than the hardware. Although if you have both the skills sets and the hardware, in this case, gen 3 NV, then you are really light years ahead of most opposition. A comment on noise and light discipline. This is a learned task. People are not normally real sneaky, well most of us. Getting past about 8 guys becomes seriously difficult to control. A 4-man recce team can be pretty sneaky. Double that to 8 and you can still do it, if you train hard at it. Get up to 12 or more, and you just have "institutional" noise from so many folks. For most civilians, this will probably not become very apparent, at least initially. Trying to get even 3-4 guys together and practice patrolling is a chore. So if you work hard at it, you can probably get pretty stealthy out there. But once the balloon goes up, and many late-comers join in the effort, you will then be challenged to keep things on the down low. One possible solution is trying to keep groups small, but close enough to be supporting. Just getting used to walking slow, at night, is a hard task. We are so used to the hustle and bustle of our lives, that slowing way down like that is extremely difficult. Especially for young folks. It takes a lot of patience to walk like that, scanning and alert, for hours on end. So yeah, until you reach that level of skill, adding in NV may help, but not near as much as trained folks. A good open source reference that is available to us civilians is Mosby's "Reluctant Partisan" series. Vol 1 is individual skills, and woodland patrolling/SUT; Vol 2 is Urban skills and "mounted" patrolling. Mastering these skill sets will enable to you leverage tech like NV to the max. Another comment on gen 1+ tech. I think Augee was being very honest and gracious about folks who may not have the wherewithal to obtain anything better than this. Although not optimal, it is not entirely useless as some would argue. So much depends on the specific scenario you may find yourself in. Enemy intentions, weapons and equipment, and capabilities. I would argue that trained troops, with low tech, would stand a very good chance of defeating poorly trained troops with the latest tech. So while we poo-poo anything that isn't state of the art in these forums, truth is, you take what you have, on the day, and do your best with it. There will probably never be enough time to train, money to buy stuff, and preps to be made. So if your group isn't ready for NV, carry on anyway. |
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Yeah, it can be challenging to get folks to actually pony up any sort of cash for stuff like this. I know plenty of guys that are more than willing to borrow my gear, but actually paying their way, forget it.
The comments about daytime training are spot on. If you can't manage that, what point is there equipping people with NV? You do need to actually train with it for it to be useful. And people that aren't gonna do easy daylight training aren't likely to bother doing training at night. Also as others have pointed out, NV was rather sparse/rare in .mil circles until fairly recently, with only a few guys in a unit having it. Even then its a major force multiplier since you can use it to scout around. For decades units used the 1 PVS-2 or similar gen1 TC units to do just that. Honestly 99% of people that have never operated at night don't really realize that even in rural areas there is plenty of light if the moon is out. And its usually out, and you can navigate fairly well with no NV under moonlight. Sure, get into a dark forest area under starlight and you have problems but its really gonna depend on your AO. As for shitty gen1 like the spark. For years I kept a gen1 mono similar enough to it in my GHB, since I was more worried about it being stolen vs its actual performance. And really, spend as little on gen1 as you can, i try to keep it under 100. I also used it enough to figure out what sort of IR illum I needed for it to be useful. I settled on a cheapie IR flashlight with a hood to reduce the off bore IR glow. I figured if I ever really needed to use it, I'd see 99% of people with it long before they could detect me. I could see about 50yds fairly well with the setup I had. Sure anyone with real NV would see me a mile away, but that sort of NV equipped OPFOR didn't really exist in my scenario, or they would be the good guys. |
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I also used it enough to figure out what sort of IR illum I needed for it to be useful. I settled on a cheapie IR flashlight with a hood to reduce the off bore IR glow. View Quote |
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Harlikwin brings up some good points. You gotta walk before you can run. Learning the skill sets in daylight and then doing it at night. It's amazing what the same patrol looks like, in daylight and at night. So yeah to back up, you would practice basic individual and team movement during the day, and then take it out at night. Practice in an open field first, then take it into the woods. Get your individual movement down first, then with your team. Etcetera. Back in my day, you had four blocks of instruction, that basically took 12-18 months to go through. Basic individual training. Basic team training. Advanced individual training. Advanced team training. If you took 12 week segments, with a little time off in between, you'd be able to knock it out in one year. Then a program of sustainment training each year.
On quality vs quantity. The Russian example is always sited. Having several cheap, or at least less expensive items instead of one expensive one. Having basically "throw-away" gear to use up in combat, vs having only one really good set of gear. There are pluses and minuses to this approach; you would really have to study your own terrain and situation to make that determination. Having several sets of kit stashed around your AO, or even beyond, obviously would be a huge advantage in flexibility to react and maneuver. Or at least a dual set of kit; one that stays with your vehicle, and one that stays home. On usage technique. Especially concerning gen 1+. Originally, NV devices were used to scan on security halts, basically mirroring the way you used a day time optics. You halted the patrol, set up a 360, then pulled out your optics to scan ahead of you. So if you went old school, and used this technique with gen 1+ and active IR illum, you would essentially be employing the same technique, albeit with some risk, depending on your estimate of the sit. Perhaps you could modify your SOP to reflect this risk by displacing and setting up a hasty ambush after illuminating. Not the best of circumstances, but making do with what you have. One other thought, and I know this can be a contentious subject. If you all chipped in and bought a "team" -14. Yeah, this can lead to all sorts of problems, but is one way to get another set, if you can work out usage between everyone. The guy who puts out the best in training gets to use them that night. Holy peer-evals, batman. |
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Quoted: I have never tried this, but just figured that as Gen1 is sensitive in the high frequencies/low wavelengths, blue and UV, could you pair a Gen1 with an UV illum to avoid passive detection? Gen2 may see it too, but Gen3 I guess no. View Quote |
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Quoted:
Harlikwin brings up some good points. You gotta walk before you can run. Learning the skill sets in daylight and then doing it at night. It's amazing what the same patrol looks like, in daylight and at night. So yeah to back up, you would practice basic individual and team movement during the day, and then take it out at night. Practice in an open field first, then take it into the woods. Get your individual movement down first, then with your team. Etcetera. Back in my day, you had four blocks of instruction, that basically took 12-18 months to go through. Basic individual training. Basic team training. Advanced individual training. Advanced team training. If you took 12 week segments, with a little time off in between, you'd be able to knock it out in one year. Then a program of sustainment training each year. On quality vs quantity. The Russian example is always sited. Having several cheap, or at least less expensive items instead of one expensive one. Having basically "throw-away" gear to use up in combat, vs having only one really good set of gear. There are pluses and minuses to this approach; you would really have to study your own terrain and situation to make that determination. Having several sets of kit stashed around your AO, or even beyond, obviously would be a huge advantage in flexibility to react and maneuver. Or at least a dual set of kit; one that stays with your vehicle, and one that stays home. On usage technique. Especially concerning gen 1+. Originally, NV devices were used to scan on security halts, basically mirroring the way you used a day time optics. You halted the patrol, set up a 360, then pulled out your optics to scan ahead of you. So if you went old school, and used this technique with gen 1+ and active IR illum, you would essentially be employing the same technique, albeit with some risk, depending on your estimate of the sit. Perhaps you could modify your SOP to reflect this risk by displacing and setting up a hasty ambush after illuminating. Not the best of circumstances, but making do with what you have. One other thought, and I know this can be a contentious subject. If you all chipped in and bought a "team" -14. Yeah, this can lead to all sorts of problems, but is one way to get another set, if you can work out usage between everyone. The guy who puts out the best in training gets to use them that night. Holy peer-evals, batman. View Quote Back in the good ol days when NV was rare ish, team stop/scan was the typical way it was used, not for "nav" which you were doing with unaided vision. Actually the guys with the NV were at a disadvantage because they lost night adaptation in one eye from using the NV (usually rifle mounted) when doing the scans. Plus it weighed a ton too. My plan with my craptastic Gen1, was to run it as stop/scan mono as needed. I later figured out a cheap way to headmount it in which case I was running it like a crappy pvs-14, but it worked ok. Since then I've managed to up the game with an old gen2 device that I won't cry too much about loosing if it happens. And that is a big step up. |
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Well yeah, the good(?) thing about a slow decline of empire is that we will probably have a long time to prepare. I have been concerned about this stuff since the 80's, along with LowDown3 (and I suspect others here as well) . As it continues to worsen, we have more time to prep. If you do take the low-end approach, then you can certainly upgrade as you go.
This is one thing not often mentioned in these discussions; timeline is usually assumed to be ASAP. And granted many threats do currently exist to justify that; I see a continued slow decline of western civ, like the Roman state, until we become overrun with barbarians and insignificant. So besides that cheery thought on Monday morning, everyone enjoy your NV. |
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I'm in a similar situation and have found it's easier to find other people with NODS and convince them to come train, than convince the guys you train with to buy NODS.
What you'll end up with if your lucky is a team of three or four guys ready to work the night shift, and if your really lucky your night team may inspire some others to take the plunge. |
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A surplus 26.5mm flare launcher and few boxes of white flares.
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Yeah the low tech solution strikes again. One obvious T,T,P is to blind the oppo with white light; so now all this talk about how sophisticated your NV is, goes right out the window. Red dot sights are now back in play. So yeah, when things go loud, you may simply have to flip up and fight, white light.
Another thing we haven't even mentioned yet, the elephant in the room as it were, is thermal. Regardless of how good your I2 is, or isn't, if you are spotted on thermal, you're spotted on thermal. So getting too wrapped around the axle of one light spectrum (as iwouldntknow so pithily pointed out), is counter-productive to the overall mission. Going back to what Augee wuz saying, knowing how to break contact, under any lighting condition, now becomes the prime directive, instead of focusing too much on one aspect of the spectrum. Case in point, recently read a novel where a "prepper" team sees a .gov military team on patrol. The mil team suddenly halts, and slowly reverses direction. The prepper team decides to shadow them. Well, long story short, the mil team spotted the preppers on thermal and then played it off like they hit their patrol limit and were just RTBing. Once out of sight, they button-hooked, lay in ambush, and hit the preppers. Regardless of what you augment your vision with, good T,T,P's come into play. I should say updated T,T,P's. Back in the old days, before all this stuff was common, you would often see teams try and shadow one another. Doing that now (especially without peer-to-peer tech) could prove very hazardous to your health. |
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Quoted: You would know View Quote So yeah, 26.5mm launcher and a few boxes of flares. You can sell them as ‘making NVGs useless’ and they’ll eat them up. Prepping is mostly about how badass you can claim to be, anyway. |
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IMHO it’s better to pool $$$ and buy one nice thermal. Use it in the listening / observation post outside the perimeter. Target acquisition is relayed to the response team inside the perimeter.
Plus people like that probably won’t actually train with all of it. |
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Quoted:
I have yet to convince any preppers to buy nvgs, and I’m one of the original two Cola Warriors to have nvgs. There’s some 80 people that bought nvgs as a result of me showing people mine around at CW3. The closest I ever got was a guy that bought a atn and called it good enough. So yeah, 26.5mm launcher and a few boxes of flares. You can sell them as ‘making NVGs useless’ and they’ll eat them up. Prepping is mostly about how badass you can claim to be, anyway. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: You would know So yeah, 26.5mm launcher and a few boxes of flares. You can sell them as ‘making NVGs useless’ and they’ll eat them up. Prepping is mostly about how badass you can claim to be, anyway. But yeah, most "preppers" are cheap fuckers, and dumbasses for the most part IMO, so easy to market to. That being said flares can sort of level the playing field. Unless you have AG tubes, which i suspect would help alot, its been a long time since ive played with parachute flares. |
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