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Posted: 11/5/2017 4:38:18 AM EDT
A friend and I came across these two Enfields in a merchant shop. Both are authentic, one is a Snider MkII built off a Type IV P53 w/Baddely Bands the other (the one I'm purchasing) is a Pattern 1861 Indian Service Brunswick. I will be flying to BAF in Jan and taking it to customs to fill out the paperwork and prepare to ship home.
UPDATES - First rifle appears to be an original Snider MkII built off a Type IV P53 w/Baddely Bands according to mgwantob who has a 100% original in his personal collection and also owner Villafuego - Crown engravings are the marks of Queen Victoria Receiver is “VR” crown marked (Queen Victoria) - 2nd rifle pictured is a Pattern 1861 Indian Service Brunswick. There is a pretty bad crack in the stock - Brunswick has "TOWER" marking - Have contacted Collectors Firearms in Houston via email for their input on these - Per customs I do not need a C&R license to export the Brunswick. I do need a bill of sale with the date of manufacture on it. Currently I'm having a colleague working at BAF that will visit the customs office and relay additional questions for me. - Will be heading to BAF in a month or so to start the shipping process |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 5:13:19 AM EDT
[#1]
The second photo matches the form of the Pattern 1861 Enfield Musketoon.
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Posted: 11/5/2017 5:19:31 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The second photo matches the form of the Pattern 1861 Enfield Musketoon. https://i.imgur.com/HvK0my3.jpg |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 5:24:30 AM EDT
[#3]
The rule of thumb over there is, it's fake. They fake everything and are pretty good at it.
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Posted: 11/5/2017 5:51:50 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The rule of thumb over there is, it's fake. They fake everything and are pretty good at it. |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 5:55:20 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Close but don't think so. Screws are in the wrong place and safety on trigger guard 
And as far as the pins this photo is an exact match of the 2nd rifle. Just need to find the first rifle now. 
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Posted: 11/5/2017 6:22:31 AM EDT
[#6]
Update: I've contacted Collectors Firearms in Houston via email to help identify the first rifle. I will also will be asking them about the Musketoon (2nd rifle pictured). They have a Belgian copy of that exact gun for sale and it's almost $1000. Too bad it's Sunday in the States, I'm pretty amped to hear what they have to say.
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Posted: 11/5/2017 6:31:31 AM EDT
[#7]
In
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Posted: 11/5/2017 6:42:37 AM EDT
[#8]
Talk to the Post Office or JAG (who has to sign the paperwork anyway if not going as a C&R).
The rules change with the command; last time the 82nd was here they washed their hands of the whole thing and said you must have a C&R license (even though they’re antiques  ) in order to send them home.
Two problems: 1. After studying various rifles very carefully and even getting expert opinions, both locally and internet, there is no way to be certain a weapon isn’t a Khyber Pass Special (I.e. fake). And this is at real gun stores (not your on base bazaar) with ranking ANA officers trying to get the real deal. Basically, if YOU can find all of the proof marks, markings, etc. on the internet, THEY can, too. I’ve even had a vendor tell me weapons are fake but have all of the right markings; he was right. IOW, any/everything can be faked. 2. Since people will generally overpay for said weapons, the price is never “good”. If the vendor knows it’s not fake (“No, no Mister, it’s not fake!”; I mean really not fake) it will be priced accordingly. IOW, if the price isn’t outrageous, it’s fake. Just get it as a cool souvenir and call it good. If you get it home and it turns out to have some value above what you paid for it, you lucked out. As a side note, I did run across a guy who was able to find authentic bayonets, but he was basically an expert in old bayonets and knew exactly what he was looking for/at. |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 7:00:46 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talk to the Post Office or JAG (who has to sign the paperwork anyway if not going as a C&R). The rules change with the command; last time the 82nd was here they washed their hands of the whole thing and said you must have a C&R license (even though they’re antiques ) in order to send them home. |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 10:16:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Where did you find them? I have seen both styles for years and as stated they are mostly fakes. Good muzzleloader deals dried up circa 2002.
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Posted: 11/5/2017 11:39:00 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Update: I've contacted Collectors Firearms in Houston via email to help identify the first rifle. I will also will be asking them about the Musketoon (2nd rifle pictured). They have a Belgian copy of that exact gun for sale and it's almost $1000. Too bad it's Sunday in the States, I'm pretty amped to hear what they have to say. |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 1:12:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where did you find them? I have seen both styles for years and as stated they are mostly fakes. Good muzzleloader deals dried up circa 2002. Back in 2005 I went through a couple of DDR conexes full of Enfields, Martini Henry’s, etc. looking for pieces worthy of presenting to our commander: nada. All junk a/o fakes. And these were confiscated/turned in so they weren’t built just to sell (to foreigners); they were what the Afghans had/were using. Basically, the Brit brought in a few thousand real guns years ago and the Afghans have been copying them ever since. |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 1:19:40 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not fake, and they're not good at making knock-offs at all. It's mostly garbage imported from China. Not my first rodeo. |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 1:23:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's the thing. Can you clarify this for me? I thought if it was a C&R there is no special licensing needed. Is their a reason they wouldn't fall under the category of C&R, both are black powder and well over 50yrs old? I don't know if you saw the ATF link I posted above, perhaps I interpreted it wrong. I also contacted US customs but their response time is 1-2weeks. I would not be necessarily disappointed if they're fake. I must say the asking price seems pretty legit. I have images from a gun broker posting and a collector/enthusiast site that shows what looks like all markings, and I will be going back to compare to the rifles here and then send them to Collectors Firearms Co. to let them have a look. If I'm wrong and if they're fake, man this would be one hell of a replica, still worth the asking price IMO and still one hell of a souvenir especially if it's some Kyhbar pass copy. Early on the rule was antique + letter from JAG verifying it was an antique and take it to the post office. When the 82nd RIPed in circa 2010 IIRC they changed it to flintlocks/muzzleloaders only and YOU must have a C&R license in order to ship it. I haven’t kept up with the rules since IMO there are no longer any good deals to be had (YMMV). The 82nd is here now so perhaps their old rule still stands. Ask the P.O. or legal. TBH, I can’t remember the last time I saw a firearm (long gun; not counting the goofy pistols and such) for sale. |
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Posted: 11/5/2017 4:34:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 1st rifle pictured is either a Mk1 or Mk2 Snider.....without seeing the breechblock it's tough to tell which. Without knowing the bbl. length, or number of bands it's impossible to tell you which configuration it's in..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Update: I've contacted Collectors Firearms in Houston via email to help identify the first rifle. I will also will be asking them about the Musketoon (2nd rifle pictured). They have a Belgian copy of that exact gun for sale and it's almost $1000. Too bad it's Sunday in the States, I'm pretty amped to hear what they have to say. OP just realize you "probably" aren't going to find a treasure this many years in. |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 4:18:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It must be your first rodeo if you don't see that he's obviously talking about khyber pass copies. Afghans have been copying British guns for almost 200 years. Usually what you find are Martini Henry copies |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 4:21:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP just realize you "probably" aren't going to find a treasure this many years in. |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 4:57:00 AM EDT
[#18]
Got more photos. This is the first rifle. Will post the Pattern 1861 when I have the time.
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Posted: 11/6/2017 6:59:19 AM EDT
[#19]
If your sure its not a replice, you can import it yourself, using ATF Form 6 Part II
Here's a link, to help you out. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/210/~/requirements-for-importing-new-or-antique-firearms%2Fammunition |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 8:37:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If your sure its not a replice, you can import it yourself, using ATF Form 6 Part II Here's a link, to help you out. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/210/~/requirements-for-importing-new-or-antique-firearms%2Fammunition The mil P.O. and/or the JAG have the answer. |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 11:07:54 AM EDT
[#21]
I would get IMA to send you pictures of the barrel. That is the way I looked for copies. By the characteristics of the barrel.
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Posted: 11/6/2017 11:51:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got more photos. This is the first rifle. Will post the Pattern 1861 when I have the time. https://i.imgur.com/uSyzmFO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/upGgOfo.jpg https://i.imgur.com/JJuEScu.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EPOq2Bc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ysol5MN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/oqW1Gth.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2PEm6dD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/gLWdlG1.jpg |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 12:32:18 PM EDT
[#23]
I'd love to know what makes you think that from those photos...
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Posted: 11/6/2017 1:22:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd love to know what makes you think that from those photos... perhaps you can post some pics of a Khyber-made Snider so we'll all know what to look out for.....why do you think it's a locally made gun? |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 3:26:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Gladly.
Just FYI the markings are the best thing on the Kyber pass guns. They are easy for them to replicate well. Do you have any expierence with Afghan bringback firearms? |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 4:09:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gladly. Just FYI the markings are the best thing on the Kyber pass guns. They are easy for them to replicate well. Do you have any expierence with Afghan bringback firearms? One of the best deals I ever had was from someone who thought he had a fake.....was a completely original Sparkbrook Lee-Metford.... The markings are usually the giveaways on the Enfields and MH's.....the only certifiable Khyber-made Snider I ever handled was based on one of the J.C. Lord pattern commercial carbines...and it was devoid of markings with a smoothbore bbl. Both of the rifles pictured by the OP are actually lacking a mistake in the markings made on 99.99% of the locally produced guns.... |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 7:05:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep.....I've bought a few....last was a Kabul Armory MH carbine..... One of the best deals I ever had was from someone who thought he had a fake.....was a completely original Sparkbrook Lee-Metford.... The markings are usually the giveaways on the Enfields and MH's.....the only certifiable Khyber-made Snider I ever handled was based on one of the J.C. Lord pattern commercial carbines...and it was devoid of markings with a smoothbore bbl. Both of the rifles pictured by the OP are actually lacking a mistake in the markings made on 99.99% of the locally produced guns.... |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 8:48:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sorry can you identify what makes them fake? Please let me know if you can. |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 9:51:21 PM EDT
[#29]
Buy the Snider now. Its a 100% correct Snider mark II built off a Type IV P53 with Baddely bands, excellent find! And it's regimentally marked to the 17th Leicestershire regiment of foot on the buttplate. This wouldve been before it was surplused to India.
In addition, the lock on the other is a "bitser" the 1865 dated plate is from a P1859 British Indian smoothebore in .66 cal, thus the I stamp. I have a 100% correct example in my collection. That Snider is a wonderful find. Victorian British unit marking: 1. : Battalion 17. : Regiment 506. Rifle Number I will add that I do have unit marked Type 3 P53 which came out of Jbad, a PRT woman had bought it for her husband, he didn't want it, so I paid her what she paid. The unit is the 72nd regiment of foot and fought in the Ambella campaign. The rear sight had been professionally remarked in dari and had a Kabul arsenal proof on it, and the cleaning rod has one too. I believe the rifle was captured from British forces in battle as there are no surplus marks on it. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 7:43:11 AM EDT
[#30]
Sorry for my delayed replies guys, we're in opposite time zones but I wanted to say I appreciate all your help!
@mgwantob: The information you shared has me pretty excited, but I'd hate to get my hopes up and not be able to bring this beauty home. Like KILLERB6 implied, I will need to get in contact with the military post office. The mail team just left my camp a few days ago and they only come once a month, and I have no idea when I will be going back BAF which has a permanent mail room. So right now I'm trying see if I have any old buddies currently there so perhaps they can ask for me. Also I'm going to go around and see if any of my peers here have scheduled appointments coming up that will require them to go to BAF. Pretty sure a couple guys had some paperwork to take care of there or something of that matter. I have not found any contact information YET for JAG or mil post. This is very intriguing. The Snider is actually the rifle I want. It's in much better shape than the Pattern 1861 Enfield Musketoon and also seems more refined. The Musketoon has less markings which is concerning. I will post it's pictures now. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 8:05:04 AM EDT
[#31]
So this is the second rifle, what appears to be a Pattern 1861 Enfield Musketoon. Nowhere near as good of shape as the Snider (First rifle in original post). Notice very severe crack in the stock in the last image.
I could have missed some markings or some markings may not have been visible. She's pretty worn. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 8:23:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where did you find them? I have seen both styles for years and as stated they are mostly fakes. Good muzzleloader deals dried up circa 2002. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 9:56:22 AM EDT
[#33]
WOW!!! I stand corrected. BUY THE OTHER RIFLE NOW!!!!! That is a British India Service pattern Brunswick rifle, the only rifle the British army allowed the British Indian army to have post-Sepoy rebellion in 1857 from 1859-1870. That is a rare beast. Buy it NOW. It's worth several thousand dollars.
These are also what the Gurkha regiments were armed with when the British regiments were armed with P53s. I have never seen one in person, only in books. To be clear, this Brunswick rifle was made in England on contract for the British government. Behind the lock, you will find who made it. Also underneath the barrel. Here is a 2nd Pattern Brunswick in an Australian Military Museum for which your Brunswick example is patterned after: Brunswick |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 10:29:43 AM EDT
[#34]
If he knows what he has, how much is he asking? lol. I've heard some of these guys ask outrageous prices.
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Posted: 11/7/2017 10:30:28 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WOW!!! I stand corrected. BUY THE OTHER RIFLE NOW!!!!! That is a British India Service pattern Brunswick rifle, the only rifle the British army allowed the British Indian army to have post-Sepoy rebellion in 1857 from 1859-1870. That is a rare beast. Buy it NOW. It's worth several thousand dollars. These are also what the Gurkha regiments were armed with when the British regiments were armed with P53s. I have never seen one in person, only in books. To be clear, this Brunswick rifle was made in England on contract for the British government. Behind the lock, you will find who made it. Also underneath the barrel. Here is a 2nd Pattern Brunswick in an Australian Military Museum for which your Brunswick example is patterned after: Brunswick 
I really need to talk to postal or JAG!!! Your knowledge on the history of these rifles is very intriguing good sir. You've given days of history articles to read in just a couple comments. Do you believe that this rifle holds its value even in it's current condition? |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 10:44:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If he knows what he has, how much is he asking? lol. I've heard some of these guys ask outrageous prices. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 10:46:36 AM EDT
[#37]
Yes, because it retains a 1st class rating cartouche on it's stock from service, it retains all of its original proofs, no pitting, it's original patchbox, bayonet bar intact, it's original ramrod, orginal sights. Stock just needs to be wiped down with boiled linseed oil and the metal parts wiped off with some CLP. Nothing more. I can pretty much guarantee you won't find anything else like it out there.
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Posted: 11/7/2017 11:00:55 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, because it retains a 1st class rating cartouche on it's stock from service, it retains all of its original proofs, no pitting, it's original patchbox, bayonet bar intact, it's original ramrod, orginal sights. Stock just needs to be wiped down with boiled linseed oil and the metal parts wiped off with some CLP. Nothing more. I can pretty much guarantee you won't find anything else like it out there. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 11:28:19 AM EDT
[#39]
First of all you need to take your firearm over to the customs office. They will inspect, give you forms, etc.. Then you take to another legal office nearby (I forget the name, but the Custom's Office will tell you were to go.) More paper work and stamps.
Then take to post office. Has to be sent Registered Mail. They will instruct you on how to wrap the package. They have the supplies. It's really that easy. What type of unit are you in? Just ask your PSG if you can be an escort for someone going to BAF next time and knock it out while there. Not that big a deal. |
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Posted: 11/8/2017 4:37:06 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First of all you need to take your firearm over to the customs office. They will inspect, give you forms, etc.. Then you take to another legal office nearby (I forget the name, but the Custom's Office will tell you were to go.) More paper work and stamps. Then take to post office. Has to be sent Registered Mail. They will instruct you on how to wrap the package. They have the supplies. It's really that easy. What type of unit are you in? Just ask your PSG if you can be an escort for someone going to BAF next time and knock it out while there. Not that big a deal. |
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Posted: 11/8/2017 5:43:19 AM EDT
[#41]
Collectors firearms emailed me back and I sent them all the pictures I have. Hopefully I will also have an evaluation from them soon. Nothing wrong with a bit of extra assurance!
Update: Received this email from US Customs: Thank you for contacting the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Information Center.
If the firearm you intend to import is an antique and was manufactured in or before 1898, you or the dealer do not have to submit the Form 6 to ATF, however you must be able to prove to CBP that it was manufactured during that period. If you ship the antique be sure the package includes the required documentation. CBP will accept a certificate of authenticity or bill of sale with the year the firearm was manufactured as proof of age. If the firearm was manufactured after 1898, the dealer has to submit the Form 6 to ATF for approval to import the firearm. If the firearm is at least 100 years old or more and you can provide proof of age, the firearm will be eligible for duty-free treatment under the antique provision in the Harmonized Tariff Schedule. For more information on antique firearms see ATF Website. If you have any other questions or concerns, please feel free to update this incident. Thank you again for contacting the CBP Information Center. |
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Posted: 11/17/2017 3:11:16 AM EDT
[#42]
Tagged for interest. Just got back to Astan. All of the others I've seen over the years have been Kyber Pass copies. C&R licenses don't take that long to get, have had mine for 9 yrs.
CD |
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Posted: 11/19/2017 5:44:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Update: A buddy of mine working in BAF is going to visit the customs office there for me to see if there is any paperwork they can scan/email to me so I can complete ahead of time. I emailed customs in the US and was informed that I do not need a C&R license for this item. But I do need a bill of sale with date of manufacture on it. So far so good.
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Posted: 11/19/2017 7:32:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Tagged-most interesting thread on Arf at the moment...
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Posted: 11/21/2017 1:41:32 PM EDT
[#45]
Here's a few Enfield pattern rifles you could look for while over there:
Pattern 1859 Smoothbore of British Indian Army, .66cal Pattern 1853 Enfield Contract Type 3 British Ordnance Nepalese Pattern 1853 Type 2 copy (like IMA sells) Pattern 1853 Enfield Commercial London Proofed And these too, both AFG bringbacks: Arab Oman pattern trade Matchlock Tibetan pattern Matchlock (very rare!) 
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Posted: 12/1/2017 8:02:02 AM EDT
[#46]
Just a little update. Contacted Classic Firearms again because I have not heard back from them but they seem to be on it.
Yes! We did receive the pictures of the guns. I have sent them to my expert he will get in touch when he gets to your inquiry, thank you. |
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Posted: 12/1/2017 8:04:26 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And these too, both AFG bringbacks: Arab Oman pattern trade Matchlock Tibetan pattern Matchlock (very rare!) https://i.imgur.com/u3hoqWO.jpg |
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Posted: 12/4/2017 2:25:05 PM EDT
[#48]
That Brunswick is a real find, and definitely the real thing.
The Snider looks good too, but are fairly common. |
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Posted: 12/4/2017 4:04:16 PM EDT
[#49]
I’d definitely have bought the Brunswick first. It’s probably one of the rarest weapons to come out of Afghanistan.
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Posted: 12/4/2017 4:59:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’d definitely have bought the Brunswick first. It’s probably one of the rarest weapons to come out of Afghanistan. |
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