I received my conditional BATFE approval for my SBR on Thursday. It's like I just bought a new rifle. Overnight my braced Rattler AR pistol became an SBR!

So I have a general question:

If I am traveling in state to the range, etc., is having a copy of the conditional Form 1 on my phone sufficient for having the NFA item with me?

Thanks!

Yes, nothing extra need be done, just follow your state laws as usual.

Not sure what you mean by conditional, but I just make copies of my stamps and put them in an envelope in the glove box.

I would *think* having it on your phone would be sufficient too, but it would probably be dependent on how knowledgeable the LEO that is screwing with you is. In the end you'd be fine, but possible short term hassle.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/General-NFA-Questions/17/

I keep photos of it on my phone ... it is a suggestion to have a photocopy on you not a requirement ... two ... the copy of the approved form is for ATF officers to check ... you don't have to show lick to anybody else ... but we do out of courtesy ...

Does the possessor of an NFA firearm have to show proof of registration?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm. This document must be made available upon request of any ATF officer. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the possessor when the weapon is being transported.

[26 U.S.C. 5841(e); 27 CFR 479.101]

alot of states, even the most 2a friendly, prohibit sbr/nfa items UNLESS registration is done as per ATF.
so that means, if you get pulled over, the officer can technically request proof its registered with the ATF on a form whatever. or you can take a ride.

do NOT hand an officer your phone... keep a reduced printed size in your range bag or pistol grip. I keep full-size in a neat clear folder of all my stuff, and a smaller size rolled up in my grip for that gun.. im not giving anyone my phone to see the document...

Digital photo of registration is sufficient proof.

Just note that it's not on the officer to determine if you have a SBR or not. It's on the ATF. You do not need to show the form to anyone else.

Usually an illegal SBR charged is an addon charge to something else. Generally speaking the DA will notify the ATF that they believe this is an SBR and the ATF will respond back if it is one or not and they will charge appropriately. You'd still be in a world of trouble regardless since it's usually an add on charge to something major like a home invasion or robbery. I doubt the OP will be doing that.

I never got asked to see a form regardless of what sort of upper I had. Be it a 14.5, 11.5, suppressor, etc, and I never got asked by anyone. Even saw cops at the range and they didn't even notice. You went through all that trouble for a piece of paper that you'd probably show no one.

I keep a laminated copy of mine inside my SBR's Magpul K2 grip. No way I am going to lose that inside of a sealed grip.

2nd, I have pics and pdf in phone but only as last resort in case my paper version gets gone somehow because I do not want to had my phone to the cop.  Same goes for insurance cards, I still keep paper version in car.

Good for you. But I’m just saying. Get stopped for whatever reason, SBR, cop says it’s illegal unless registered with the atf (which could be in your state law), prove it, move along. ALOT of states NFA items are illegal to own and possess unless registered, so now you would have to prove it to the officer. That’s all I’m saying.
You do you
I didn’t go through any trouble. I just carry a copy in my rifles and aow’s, copy for my small folder I keep in my bag, and others in my safe. Not a big deal

It's an Eform to begin with so mine stay that way.

I have digital copies but I don’t carry anything else. The only time I’ve been asked is by range nazis.

And do you show them your Form 1?

If you want to shoot there you do.

I don't go to that type of range...

Many years ago (30?) when I had machine guns I had a neighbor call the sheriff.  I live out in the country.  The sheriff pulls up and states they had a report of some rapid gunfire, possibly a machine gun.  I said yes sir, it was an M16 machine gun, would you like to see the papers?  He then asked what does he need to do to get one and can he use my phone?  For my privacy he didn’t want to report this in over a radio.

Nope. Told them to fuck off. Got the manager on the phone after raised some local forum drama about it.

They changed their policy

Nobody's going to ask for verification, but just in case I keep copies on my phone.

I keep a copy in the B5 stock storage compartment on the SBR and a copy of the tax stamp for the suppressor in the other storage compartment.  I also have digital copies of all of my tax stamps on my phone

I have never been asked to produce any paper work.  

There was a state police check point looking for inspection tags and seat belts near my house,  I had my MK18 on the front seat with the suppressor.  Rolled up to the check point, and before he asked I told the trooper I was just getting back from the range, as the rifle was in clear sight, and he smiled at me and asked me what suppressor I was running and if I liked it.  We actually talked for a few minutes about firearms until the car behind me rolled up.

My range is 20 minutes from me and across the state line, so I have the form 5320 filled out and approved by the ATF for one year.

I used to shoot at the local range to me in a swamp and there were some real FUDDS for range officers that worked there I was hoping one would ask me one day so I could tell him to fuck off, but never happened.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by NFA items are illegal to own unless registered. That doesn't make any sense. It's against the law to travel across state lines with a NFA item without notifying the ATF in writing that you intend to take it across state lines. So I'm not sure what or why you would be doing all this traveling and registering your items with the state. You don't register it with the state. You're getting an ATF approval form that you carry around. You do not need to show it to anyone. You do not need to show it to an officer who pulls you over. Why would he know or even want to look at what's in your car?

Some states have laws that regulate NFA items.

For example, In OH an SBR is considered "dangerous ordinance" and they are technically illegal to posses. However, if you have it registered pursuant to the federal NFA law, that serves as a defence from prosecution for possession under our state law.  So in that case, I don't legally have to show my NFA paperwork to an OH LEO, but if I didn't they could hook you up until you provided proof it's registered.

It's illegal to have a illegal SBR anywhere, in any state though. So I'm not sure why it's specifically different in OH but generally speaking regardless of whatever state laws are passed the fact is you don't need to provide any paperwork to LE. Plus it's unclear why the police would have any sort of power to enforce ATF rules or even have the ability to hold anyone on the grounds that they provide paperwork? You only need to show the paper to an ATF agent upon request but otherwise you don't. Police can't hold you on the assumption that you are breaking some sort of NFA law. That's only by the recommendation of the ATF after they determine that you have an SBR and that you never paid any sort of tax stamp. How can someone hold you and you have to prove some charge against you? That sounds wrong and undue process under the law. It works the other way: they have to prove the charges against you that you have an illegal SBR. Simply saying you don't want to show your ATF paperwork to the LE person doesn't prove that you have something illegal.

Good story other than the checkpoint looking for tag and seat belt violations.

I've been routinely shooting NFA firearms for over a decade and haven't been asked for proof yet.

I quit carrying copies of the stamps.

They do the check points around here monthly.  I am off the exit of one of the major interstates from Louisiana to Mississippi and my exit seems to be the hot spot for the checks.

When I had an MP5, I was asked to see my Form 4 by a range employee. He said the shop needed to make a copy of my F4 for me to shoot there. Told them that was not happening under any circumstance. Shop employee then decided to up the ante and said he was going to have to confiscate the MP5 until ownership and legality of it could be determined. Told him that sure wasn’t going to happen.

Shop manager comes out of the back office and wants to know what’s going on. Store monkey. Says his piece, I say mine.  His eyes got huge when his employee said they make copies of everyone’s F1 or F4 when they use the range.
I politely told the shop manager that he should educate his employees on tax Documents and who can and can not see them.

He said he would take care of it and gave me an hour range use free.

Had a knucklehead at a local police owned range tell me he needed to see my tax stamp for my Serbu Super Shorty once. Looked at him and laughed. Me and the wife went back to what we were doing. He packed his shit and left.

"Sure thing, as soon as I can get a copy of your business license, state/local sales tax filings, FFL, corporate tax filings for past 5 years, personal tax filings for past 5 years....."

Only ATF can determine if item is an NFA item or not. Only ATF can ask to see forms, not some random LEO who know nothing about the NFA, or the law in general.

OP, I have 10 SBRs and don’t carry around Form 1s for them. I don’t carry around Form 4s for any of my suppressors either. I have the forms at home. All my NFA items are 100% legal and there isn’t anything local LE can do about it

I say this as a dealer and someone who has a TS clearance to lose. Local LE have zero jurisdiction over the NFA. Either it is a legal NFA item or not.

@CouchCommando22

This is simply not true. As others have said, repeatedly in this very thread, there are often state laws that apply to NFA as well. They mirror the NFA and have an exemption if you are registered with the feds.

Can you tell a local cop to fuck off and not show any paperwork? Yeah. You'll just probably have to take a ride downtown and lose your item until they verify it.

Your state and laws may vary.

https://johnpierceesq.com/who-can-ask-to-see-my-tax-stamp/

Well, my state does not. I have been in the NFA game for a minute and have a lot of stamps. If you state, or other states, have additional laws, well that sucks for them. For me, in my state, I don’t have to carry around copies of my stamps for the off chance that some local LEO is going to make contact with me and ask me about a perfectly legal NFA item.

You are obviously more vested in this than I am. I know what is legal for me, in my state. Sorry you live in a commie state where local LE can force you to show them copy of your stamp. Here, they have no right to see them and no body is under any obligation of any kind to show local LE stamps. I have already proven this to be true and several public ranges. Now, I have my own range.

I hae a range back that goes with me to all Comps and anytime I go the range or leave the house to do some shooting.
In there, there is a Folder that has a Copy of My Trust and each one of my NFA items.  Fits right in the bag pocket..

In 25+ years, I've been asked to see an NFA form once, but a goon at the range, did not even know what he was asking about.
I was nice and gave him a quick no shitter.
Turns out he was an Ex-Sheriff, Ex- Chief of Police and the Pres of the Gun Club.

He passed recently.  RIP...  
I'll give him, a bit of a curmudgen maybe but a good guy and got projects completed at the range.

I keep full sized copies in my range back, and reduced size copies in my glove box and in the stock of at least 1 of my ARs.

No such thing as conditional approval. You are either approved or not.

Overkill, completely. Keep a photocopy somewhere like the gun case. Nobody really cares anyway

No one has ever asked me.  My local range that I'm a member of couldn't care less.

I keep copies on my phone, for me. Not handing a stranger my unlocked phone lol. I keep a photo copy in the case for anyone else that needs to see it.

It is clearly listed as being a conditional approval.

Attached File

our shit all says the same shit your state says, to own and posses an nfa firearm a tax stamp is required. we all know that the ATF is technically the only agency we must provide the paperwork for. nfa weapons are illegal in all 50 states (it's a federal law), and the only people exempt are those with permission from uncle sugar + their state. uncle sugar says i don't have to show barney fife shit HOWEVER i buy gold and silver (my primary "career") and i would prefer barney not take me downtown and inventory my wilson combat 300blk sbr with a sandman s hanging off the end of it + $40-50k in cash and / or gold when just showing hitler jr my gestapo papers. i only kinda own this shit because it's cool, but the main reason is because they are great tools that hopefully i never have to use.

only a paint chip eating retard would mention anything about the sbr or suppressor secured out of sight, or the bundle of cash / precious metals in the truck vault. i dont take my shit to the local range (i own property with an action shooting bay if i want to shoot my shit), i don't show my shit to every tom, dick, or harry. i dont even mention my ccw and my ccw license is kept in a part of my wallet you would have to dig for it. there are no gun related stickers on any of my vehicles, in all essence i am "grey man" when it comes to guns, cash, precious metals. there is however a binder with copies of my "stamps" (again out of sight, and secured from prying eyes / fingers). us poor schleps in florida can even carry our rifles and shotguns LOADED WITH ONE IN THE CHAMBER.

a quick google search reveals Va state statutes, and this is what follows;

§ 18.2-300. Possession or use of "sawed-off" shotgun or rifle.
B. Possession or use of a "sawed-off" shotgun or "sawed-off" rifle for any other purpose, except as permitted by this article and official use by those persons permitted possession by § 18.2-303, is a Class 4 felony.

§ 18.2-303.1. What article does not prohibit.
Nothing contained in this article shall prohibit or interfere with the possession of a "sawed-off" shotgun or "sawed-off" rifle possessed in compliance with federal law

this is the same shit most "nfa friendly" state statutes say, as far as i can see none of them "require" you to carry paperwork. you must be in compliance with federal law, how would barney fife know if you're in compliance with federal law when he doesn't even know local jurisdictional law? i have no idea? i just figure right before he decided we would sort this shit out down at the station i would remember right about the time the hand cuffs go on and the evidence inventory bags come out i would suddenly remember "oh yeah, i have some sort of permission slip from uncle sugar". some people have days, weeks, months, years to yell "am i being detained" and filing 1st, 2nd, 4th, 7th, and 13th amendments lawsuits, i don't. i just wanna stay off the radar and eek out my average $200k a year. your mileage may vary, i am just some random guy online who has had 16 stamps approved in the last 6 months.

the amnesty form 1s are "conditional". the condition was that no tax was paid, a paid "tax stamp" is also not attached to the approved form.

So what does this mean for those who took advantage of the tax amnesty deal @tier1bro ?

Not much, it's just stating that the "condition" by which you are approved while not paying the tax is because of the amnesty put fourth by the rule change.

+1

good to go like any other. for "legal purposes" it is the exact same thing, just cheaper. thanks o-biden

I carry a manila envelope with copies of all my forms when I am shooting my machine guns, even on my own property.
Never been asked to see the forms, but would if requested.
Being a dick about it can get you hassled.
Yeah, you may be right in that you didn't have to show it, but you still got hassled because you just had to be right, when showing the form would not cause any harm.
When I bought my first machine gun, the dealer advised me to not only carry a copy of the form, but also call local LE and advise them that I would be firing a machine gun if they get any reports.
No longer do this, as it is well known by my neighbors, from the sound, what I am doing.
And they all know and like me and that I am not doing anything illegal.

Dealer I bought first machine gun from also advised me that if law enforcement does show up, after clearing the firearm is legally owned, in the interest of keeping good relations, hand the officer the gun and a loaded magazine and let him fire it.
Never had to, but would if occasion arose.

The officer who would respond to such a situation is doing so because of a complaint that he must respond to.
He likely doesn't know the ins and outs of NFA law.

In any kind of situation, common courtesy often makes for good future relations.


RCA

I don't carry the forms for my NFA items. Last time I got asked, "get a warrant." They did not obtain one. I went about my day unmolested. YMMV.

Keep in mind, his range, his rules. He could also ask for last 10 years of 1040s too, you do not have to comply, but he does not have to let you shoot there either.