Well... after a couple range trips getting ready for hunting my Trail XP50 is once again shifting zero.

Back story... acquired it new Nov 2017 and immediately had the issue. Sent it back to Pulsar Feb 2018, and after about three weeks and some experimenting on their part, I got it back with a supposed clean bill of health.

The first couple range trips showed almost no POI change worth noting... I considered an inch or so ok. Fast forward through hunting times and I was killing what I was shooting at so really never benched the unit.

After April 2019 I noticed a shift of a couple inches but chalked it up to many days/night in the field and time... and it just being what it was.

Well staring in August 2019 I started making notes, and shue as crap it's still shifting, 2" and now over 3". The groups are good, just not where I'm aiming.

This am at 52-degrees, it's low 3 1/2" and left 2 1/4"... and that's after making an adjustment back in September where it was off low and right by 2".

So... it's off to see what Pulsar will do.

I'm asking for a completely new unit... this one has PROVEN to be unreliable... or a refund.

Based on previous contacts and dealings with Pulsar I expect to be made whole one way or the other.

Will update this when I hear from them.

UPDATE 11-22-19

Pulsar said my unit was not "repairable". I asked specifically what the issue was and he said the "front end housing" has three screws associated with the housing and it being held secure, that the screws and how they attach are problematic, and they don't have the parts to replace the existing bad housing and screws. He said the problem area(s) have not been redesigned but said only a certain amount of units exhibit this problem. Maybe that's why some XP50 users have the issue whereas others have not.

OK... I suppose that's possible. If the housing unit as a whole shifts intermittently that would explain why I could shoot MOA and sub-MOA groups. Had I known of this I would have done some experimentation at the range by firing a group, subject the rifle/unit to some moderate impacts, and then reshoot to see if the POI changed.

As a result, Pulsar is sending me a NEW unit, which means a new 3 year warranty start time.

The guy said Pulsar is getting units in at a much faster rate now and I should have a unit within two weeks.

Only problem in the long run is if they stop making the XP50 as they said they are, what happens down the road if my replacement unit does the same? Based on this, I don't think I'll be getting that 2nd XP50 I've been wanting.

Target below shows prior zero was low/right. Made the correction. Today it's way low/left.



Made adjustments and back to zero. At least the unit responds. My friend and fellow ARFCOM'er was with me in March/April when I first started seeing the POI shifts again. His XP50 responded perfectly to the One-Shot Zero function, mine did not.



I'm going to start keeping better records to support my warranty claim against Pulsar... I hope I don't need to.

I hated to hear you are having this issue when you called me this morning, brother.  As I said on the phone, maybe there is something to fact that your scope didn’t respond well to the one-shot zero feature that I used on my XP50 successfully during that range session.  Maybe that alone is indicative that something is up with your unit, and I know we share a suspicion that my 2019 build date may be why we are having different experiences.

I am curious now to see if my unit has held zero since the last range session, although I suppose I may have introduced a variable by updating the firmware recently even though I’ve read that a FW update shouldn’t affect stored zero profiles.  Hopefully we can get together soon and verify zero on some coyotes and hogs- this cooler weather has me ready to go.

That sucks to hear, stuff like this is annoying and can be hard to track down. I had a bit of a wandering zero on my REAP as well but part of that turned out be user error with me not understanding a subtle method about the mounting system. Someone made a small comment about the mount, I tried it and it worked but prior to that it was really starting to give me a headache trying to figure it out

It sounds like Pulsar will treat you right though, so at least there's that I hope

Good luck. Having high end gear not work is a real PITA

Thanks

The mounts are rock solid and I baby the rifle and thermal at all times.

Almost every group I’ve fired is near MOA sometimes just under I’m sure a loose or shifting mount would not allow that... were your groups good?

More or less decent. Nothing spectacular but good enough for hogs

The 6.5g actually went tits up last week when I put a daylight optic to test how well it really groups. Bolt won't go into battery and the BCG sticks out a hair too far to close the upper on the lower. Haven't had time to troubleshoot it though

Just got off the phone with Pulsar.

Apparently there are some suspected issues internally involving loose screws and a housing... I'm not sure of the validity of that but my unit has shifted when there was no real temp. difference so maybe that's the problem. Guy said they have discovered these screws have come loose and it's suspected it was due to recoil.

This makes some sense as I usually notice a POI shift after extended use... maybe there is something to this as I use mine a lot.

I asked WHY has Pulsar not announced this suspect problem? He had no answer. But I'm thankful he mentioned it.

Guy said most likely I will receive a new unit... I sure hope so. Mine is heading back.

Will keep folks updated.

FedEx label received and unit shipped today.

My xq50 is doing the same but worse at 50m. Can you give me the contact info at pulsar?

@bowhntr6pt

You will need to go to their website and complete the RMA request.

RMA Request

They will respond within 48 business hours. If they don't, you can call them at 817-225-0310 but all they will do is direct you to the RMA form and process.

See update above.

That's good news for your current unit at least

Very glad to hear they are taking care of you with a new unit.  Now it just needs to hurry up and get here so we can get back out in the field soon.

@bowhntr6pt

Anything new to report?

After making some posts on other social media places/boards I received a message from Pulsar to contact a guy at Sellmark... it was decided to issue me a full refund.

I have since received the refund and have bought a Trijicon Hunter Mk III 35mm thermal.

My hunting buddy is having the same problem with his Trail XP50...

Anyone with Trail issues I'd suggest you press hard for a refund.

Thanks for the update.

I am going to put my Pulsar through the paces.

Damn good choice sir. Damn good choice.

Just got back from a hog hunting trip using my pulsar trail XP50. Zeroed first day. First night killed a pig with a perfect shot. Second night missed a pig at 40 or 50 yards with what should have been an easy shot. Later that night hit a second pig at 80 yards with a shot that was high and left (clipped its back) despite POA being in its vitals. Almost crawled away and I shot it twice more (both shots high and left). Had to finish it off with a close in shot to vitals. Was not happy and feared my scope had the dreaded thermal drift

I checked zero the next day and it was dead on. So obviously my scope has zero shift as well. I went into the back yard and set up a hand warmer at 15 yards away. Let it be for 30 minutes in 50ish degree temps. Checked and zero was fine. Took a hot blow dryer to it for 30 seconds and as you can see the shift was considerable. Easily would be misses at moderate ranges. The scope was not "hot", just warm after the blow dryer. Once it returned to ambient temp the zero mostly returned but still not exact. I contacted sellmark and they refereed me to pulsar so we will see what ends up happening. Scope was bought second hand so hopefully i'm not screwed.

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The fact that they did not swap and and give you a new unit is not encouraging.

Great idea on how to test the shift.  Thanks.

And good luck with Pulsar.

Glad they made it right but that is disappointing. The Pulsar really seems like a solid unit. I hope it's not a turd

Excellent idea for testing with the hair dryer. I've heard so many issues with poi shifts on pulsars I'm glad someone has solid evidence of it.

I hope anyone with a Trail does the same test (inside the house/garage would work as well) to build more evidence the issue was not fixed with a firmware update. My quick tabletop math says my particular scope could potentially be off by 10" at 100 yards with a short application of heat/ cold. Some people might say an application of heat like that is unrealistic but imagine your rifle riding in a truck leaning against a vent with heat coming out of it...or cold air for that matter. Basically you would have no idea until you fire a shot if your scope is zeroed or not.

The biggest issue is the scope is completely unreliable for any sort of ethical hunting, law enforcement, or even self defense. A scope that doesn't hold zero is complete trash and Pulsar needs to make this right by full refund, or equal value Thermion.

After reading this thread, I decided to test my scope, but with cold, as I live in the northeast.
I clamped my scoped rifle in a bench vise on the welding table at my shop, aimed at a night light plugged into a wall socket 20 ft away.
I turned the scope on, confirmed zero and placed a blue ice pack on top of it, then covered the ice pack/scope with a small wash towel to contain the cold.
Sure as shit, the center dot moved up and to the right about 1" after a couple minutes with the Ice pack on top. This is at 20 ft.
After I removed the ice pack, the dot slowly moved back to center vertical wise, but stayed off to the right about a 1/4".
It took about 2 minutes for this to occur.
I wrote down the X/Y values beforehand and they didn't change.
I kept the scope on and tried this test 4 more times and it did the same thing every time.
At least it's consistently off.
I hadn't noticed a POI change, as most of my shots are within 50-75 yards and everything has died that I've shot at so far.
I'll have to go to the range and see what it does at 100 yards and hope it won't be to far off.
While I always acclimate my gear to the outside conditions before going into the field, I'm a little concerned after this test.
I really like this scope.

SJC

An inch at 20' is going to be 15" at 100yds... That's concerning

So cold can move it around a foot at 100 yards. Heat can move it a foot at 100 yards. Firmware update did not fix the issue. Would be nice to have a few more people test their thermal scopes for some more data points on this. Even non trail models.

My brother did the same heat test with a Pulsar RXQ30V and reported no zero shift.

Since I had a full battery, I left the scope on in the shop for two hours and did the ice pack test again.
Before I left the shop, I reset zero and it held zero.
The heat sink was warm to the touch.
The hot scope had half the POI shift in comparison to the cold start scope and after removing the cold pack, the scope fully returned to zero in a couple of minutes.
Once the snow clears, I'm gonna head to the range and if it's within an inch of zero at 100 yards, I'll live with it till critter seasons over.

SJC

@Bowhntr6pt

I am going to be checking my unit soon, and with all the problems noted by XP50 owners I am not very confident... so thinking ahead...

Did you consider the equivalent Pulsar Thermion scope before buying the Trijicon, or just didn't want to go the Pulsar route after the Trail issue?

I searched to see if I found similar issues with the Thermion, and didn't find any owners complaining about a zero shift.  Wonder if they fixed it with the Thermion.

If they have, I would trade the Trail for it.

Seems on the FaceBook page there were some comments about zero shifts... but the main complaint you will find is the flickering of the screen due to an apparent firmware update... instead of heping it fucked some units up... those guys are still waiting on a fix.

I was considering the Thermion but when I saw those problems I thought fucked once, shame on you Pulsar, fucked twice, shame on me.

I won't buy diddly shit from Pulsar.

That's interesting because my old Pulsar Apex XD38 never lost zero and I have huge temperature swings and I used the newer QD mount and would often use it as a scanner and then re-mounting it and never ever had loss of zero. Sad that on the newer more expensive units it is such an issue ... Hopefully the thermion performs as advertised because it's on my buy list.

I don't think the rail mount is the issue. It's the way the sensor and/or lenses are mounted inside the housing and possibly the housing material itself.

I sold my Apex XQ38 to buy the Trail XQ50.
The Apex controls were southpaw friendly, but the improved battery, recording and core features the Trail line offered were too good to pass up.
Live and learn.
My current HD19 scanner and the two digisights I gave to friends are still working perfectly.
I sent my XQ50 in for evaluation and hope that we can come to some type of replacement agreement, as after doing the cold test, I lost all confidence in the scope being able to perform at longer range shots.

SJC

I wish they would bring back a modern HD19 with recording and better specs. The Axions are retarded ... They have the tech but they just make bad bad engineering/marketing choices ... Kinda like FLIR OTS ...

So first and foremost Pulsar did not have to take this scope back for a warranty repair but they did. So hats off to them for at least standing by their product. They also said they will continue to service it if I have any more issues. I bought it used (like new) so its not like Pulsar was going to make any more money off of it. Even with shot show going they got it back to me in a week.

So Pulsar re-calibrated the sensor, updated me to the v4 firmware, and did all of their recoil and temperature testing and said it was all working. So did it make a difference?

Well here is the same setup as I did before, but with a 4"x 4" cold pack versus a smaller hand warmer. Same distance, same blow dryer going for 30 seconds.

Results: Yes there is still some zero shift. I would guess maybe off by a couple inches at 100 yards? So within my tolerable range for hunting. It does not appear to be anywhere near as severe as before I sent it in. I would l like to see if other scopes suffer from the same minute temp drift.

I am still going to sell this scope to fund something else but I feel like whatever Pulsar did at least corrected some of the issue.

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There's a reason they dropped the Trail.

FedEx delivered my Trijicon Hunter Mk III 35mm today... outstanding display. Can't wait to get it zeroed on a rifle and get back to hunting.

That's great, I hope it serves you well.
I just picked up a Reap-ir 35mm. Was sighting it in yesterday when an armadillo crossed my shooting lane. He was my first Reap kill.

Uhhh, what? Pulsar didn't drop the Trail.  And the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dead hogs that have fallen to Pulsar Trails would suggest your zero shift issue was anomalous.

Does no one RTFM anymore? Read Page 32, halfway down.

Maybe you should actually know what you are talking about before responding.

Pulsar is dropping the trail and going to the trail 2. Guess what one of the changes is? All metal body with no heatsink. I have already shown the zero drift is not a limited issue but I have a feeling you didnt read the thread.

If you consider an entire 12" at 100 yards a small zero displacement you might want to test your own scope and report back with the results.

I think there may be some shift on my XP50 and tried testing it one time but had inconclusive results.

For me, I leave my scope off until I'm ready to shoot and turn back off each time when done.

I don't have any issues not being able to kill shit with this method of usage.

Having a small laser to co witness helps when removing and reinstalling optics. Also a quick way to check for any anomaly with digital devices at different temps or zoom levels.

Just noticed mkiii 60mm the reticle should switch to opposite color of critter for high contrast when cross hairs are on critter. Well if your scope is not centered at 0,0 it may not switch. The 0,0 central area is what triggers the polarity change. So if you put the center of screen on critter, crosshairs will be opposite polarity so you can see them. When you zero unit the cross hairs move away from center and that should be the reference area used for switching polarity of cross hairs, but firmware engineer dropped the ball.
IE white cross hairs on white critter not very precise. But plenty of critters have died so I can deal with it.

Might want to check this with new trijicon and see if problem was fixed.

You're responding to statements I didn't make.

Feel free to search my post history if you don't think I know that of which I speak. The Trail 2 housing is magnesium, btw; the same alloy used to make the Thermions.  Development is incremental.  But that's beside the point, because my comment that they didn't drop the Trail was in response to someone who said "they dropped the Trail."  And they didn't drop the Trail.

My RTFM suggestion was in response to the comment, "maybe off by a couple inches at 100 yards."  A foot is a completely different conversation.

Reading comprehension.  It's a thing, even in California.

Let's play nice...

I don't know who you are or what your connection to the industry is, I'm just passing on what I was told, not heard, read about, but told. If it's wrong, so be it, does not change the fact that was what I was told.

About two months ago during a telephonic conversation with Sellmark (which I asked tough questions and wanted straight answers) I was advised by a technician my Trail XP50 was broke on the inside, cracked housing where screws secure it. They said it could not be fixed and it was a continuing and on-going problem believed to be associated with over-tightening of the screws at the factory coupled with thin plastic in the area. This breakage, believed to be recoil induced or aggravated, was in addition to the thermal zero shifts, which Sellmark has admitted to me from day one exist.

I was told NEITHER issue has a solution at the moment nor does Pulsar plan on one. I've always credited Sellmark for their honesty and candor concerning the Trail woes.

During the above conversation, and in the contact of what's Pulsar going to do to address the two issues, the comment was made that the "Trails" are being dropped except the LRF version for now... the comment was in the context of the conversation about the continued and well-documented problems the Trails have had... seems legitimate to me considering.

Yes... the Trails have killed a metric shit ton of pork and coyotes... I've added quite a bit to that pile. But neither of what I've posted, you've posted, or the amount of kills credited to the Trails changes the fact that there are MANY pissed off customers here and overseas who are tired of having to re-zero or check their zero to find 3" + shifts.

Quality as a rule with a dud being an exception that every mfg. experiences is one thing... with Pulsar Trails, it's just the opposite, more duds have made it to market than should be allowed. I'm reading where guys are on the third replacement unit. Screw that noise.

So if you take exception with what I posted, that's fine, I'm just sharing the results of a several candid conversations between the folks at Sellmark and myself.

ETA- and while I don't mean to throw Sellmark folks under the bus, I've also had a few conversations with others in the industry, who shall remain nameless, that have echoed the same concerns and admitted the problems are real. At least there has been no circling of the wagons and lies spread that there are no issues that need dealing with. That's a big credit to the Thermal industry and the businesses that sell the products.

ETA 2- as far as zero shifts being an anomaly, maybe you should search other sites and social media hunt group pages. My friend just recently acquired a new Trail XP50... after initial zero, a couple subsequent range trips in connection with cold fronts here in central FL saw a 3" right/high and 3" right/low shift... that's predictable given the track record and topic of my thread not anomalous.

Agreed. Same team. My bad.

Am glad you got taken care of.  The thin plastic/over-tightening-depending-on-which-tech-built-it/recoil-induced zero shift theory has good legs.  Also explains why so few units out of the total number sold have been affected.  Takes a perfect storm of factors I guess.  Couple inches at 100 yards is what the manual says the scope is expected to shift due to temp differences.  Any more than that is an unintended defect in either materials and workmanship.

In my experience, the nature of thermal itself is so inaccurate that most people will literally never notice a couple-inch shift.  The resolving power of even the very best thermal scopes pales in comparison to the most basic 4x32 day scope, and every shot after the first one is one the run anyway.  Good news is, hogs are pretty big ;).

Realize that when you call Sellmark in Mansfield, it's the equivalent of owning a Ford with its unidentifiable death wobble problem and calling your local Ford dealership demanding they engineer a fix for the wobble, or give you a truck without the death wobble.  Your truck dealer no more can fix it than tell you what's causing it.  They have to wait for Ford to issue a repair bulletin and train the techs.  Same story with Sellmark.  Their Texas-based CS covers thousands of SKUs across dozens of completely different product lines.  These Pulsars are designed and engineered in Lithuania, then produced in Scotland (used to also be Belarus but I think they shifted that production).  There's been more effort lately to get the Texas guys and gals enough training so that they can identify issues and do repairs, but for the most part, they're just distributors.

Yep, understand where they are made and who imports them and Sellmark is stuck in the middle defending and picking up the slack.

I was told a technician was actually in-house now, brought in from overseas, to specifically work on returned units and cut down the return time. That fact, in itself, that Pulsar would send someone to the USA for the sole purpose to fix Trails, supports the fact the Trails are problematic no?

I don't know why anyone would consider the issue "limited", "an anomaly", etc. The last discussion I had with Sellmark it was obvious based on the tone and direction the conversation went the problem has caused frustration. When I made my post on the FB Pulsar Night Thermal Hunters related page (can't remember the actual name right now), MANY people sent me thumbs up comments, including several from the UK.

Obviously I don't have my manual any longer... but if the manual says thermal shift is to be expected, why are they bending over backwards replacing units? I'll take your word that the manual states that but at no time has ANYONE from Pulsar or Selmark ever brought that to my attention... glad you did, I did  not notice it. But again, my shifts were more than 2". And I fully agree a day optic and Thermal are not the same precision wise, ten seconds behind a thermal and anyone should quickly realize that.

Again, if you are industry-connected and the things the folks at Sellmark are passing on to me are incorrect, I'm all ears. Thanks for your input and information, many Pulsar users simply want answers.

Nice try back tracking on your comments. I guess some people just cant admit when they dont know what they are talking about and try to use personal insults to feel better. Let me be super clear so even you can understand:

1. Pulsar is stopping production on the trails and
going only to trail 2s come may/june. Magnesium alloy body, no heatsink.

2. The zero drift issue is not only a few scopes. The issue is due to the plastic housing/heatsink so every unit is affected. By what degree is unknown but this thread alone shows its more than a few.

3. Pulsar does not want to publicly say there is an issue because it will cost them possibly millions to refund/replace.

4. A scope that cant hold zero is pretty useless as a scope. Again, if an inch or two at 100 yards is tolerable that's fine...but without testing your individual scope you would have no idea the amount of possible drift.

5. $3-5k is a lot of money to have in a scope that will have some amount of zero drift. Do all thermals have a certain amount of drift? Not in my experience. At least not noticable. As the trail heats up you can actually see the reticle moving from original POA.

Edit- you do understand magnesium alloy is metal, right??

Do you remember which section of the manual it states to expect a couple of inches of shift due to temperature variations?

I don't remember reading that in my manual, although I don't have it handy.

http://pulsarnv.com/manuals/Trail%20manual.pdf

Thanks

On page 32 it says:  if
your sight was zeroed during
the summer, and is now being
used in the winter (or the other
way round), a small
displacement of the aiming
point is possible.

That sounds similar to what I've been told.

I responded that Pulsar isn't "dropping the Trail" due to the fact that their SHOT presentation included a Trail 2, designed with the same materials used to build the Thermion.  You feel like they *are* dropping the Trail because the Trail 2 is designed differently.  This is just semantics.

Thanks, I must've glazed over that. I wonder what the official definition of a "small displacement" is?

I hog hunt with reloads and I have to zero my scope in for winter versus summer as it is anyway. Same for my day scope, second rifle, same ammo.

While I've never missed a target I shot at with my Trail, I did notice some POI difference after looking at some of the recorded kills I saved.
Especially the tree rats that I shot while they were on a tree, as you can see where the projectile entered into the tree bark after pass through.
These shots are usually from 15-20 yards.
The coyote and fox I shot were around 50 yards and I took body shots, so no POI shift was noticeable.
No matter how much it costs, I don't want a scope that may or may not shoot where I'm aiming.
The Apex XQ38 I sold to get the Trail XQ50 was a solid scope that I would shoot out to 300 yards, with no hesitation.
I have thermals dating back to the early 90's and those all held zero and I had some of them on 50Bmg's for awhile.
I've been a customer of pulsar for a long time and I've never had to send any of the scopes or monoculars in for service.
I guess I was due, but I don't want to get the run around like others have posted, telling me my scope was tested and it's in their acceptable temp displacement parameters.
That's unacceptable.

SJC