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Posted: 10/13/2019 9:41:41 PM EDT
Link

Looks like I’d like the RDB and K&M had a baby.... too bad it isn’t downward ejecting

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/13/2019 9:48:00 PM EDT
I am not a bullpup fan
Link Posted: 10/13/2019 9:56:05 PM EDT
It looks like an interesting design, though the length of pull looks a bit long.
Link Posted: 10/13/2019 10:07:11 PM EDT
Very smooth shooting
Link Posted: 10/13/2019 10:20:55 PM EDT
Its Dupetastic
Link Posted: 10/13/2019 10:29:44 PM EDT
Interesting design.
Link Posted: 10/13/2019 10:31:19 PM EDT
Yes but the other is in GD and some never frequent GD or care for the purse swinging

GD link for the Bullpup hate
Link Posted: 10/14/2019 12:39:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2019 12:52:25 AM EDT by Kali_Refugee]
Well it looks like a solid aluminum or some other metal chassis. Poor choice it will get hot under rapid fire picture you posted is the automatic rifle version.  Besides that the whole thing including where your cheek rests will be very uncomfortable hot in tropics and cold enough to freeze to it in cold temps. That can be solved pretty easily I’m sure but just going off pics in the article.

The other problem I see with the long barreled AR version pictured is that bipod looks like it interfaces right on the damn barrel. It looks like the forearm leaves the barrel tree floated and it’s 2019 don’t screw that up and mess with harmonics by mounting the damn bipod on the barrel. The charging handle looks like it’s in a shitty spot that will draw the hand into the rail and optic mounts. The AUG gets an excuse for that being a modification of a integral optic design. A gun designed from the ground up to be a flat top and use rail mounted optics that’s just dumb.

Also it’s ugly but that’s the least important aspect.

Compare the front of the carbine one to the AR for my bipod criticism.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/14/2019 12:52:13 AM EDT
It looks OK.

Main points:
-It absolutely needs a shell deflector to allow off side shooting; something similar to the Corvus AUG shell deflector.

-Hopefully the production version will be made of polymer. Solid aluminum will get hot / cold, and also likely transmit more vibration into the shooters face.

-The magwell should be redesigned into a mag funnel, to improve mag changes. This should be standard on all bullpups

-Hopefully they will employ the K&M M17 style trigger linkage, which pulls the sear rather then pushes against it. This allows a much lighter/crisper trigger.

-Ideally it will employ a X95 style magazine and bolt release.
Link Posted: 10/14/2019 1:13:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
It looks OK.

Main points:
-It absolutely needs a shell deflector to allow off side shooting; something similar to the Corvus AUG shell deflector.

-Hopefully the production version will be made of polymer. Solid aluminum will get hot / cold, and also likely transmit more vibration into the shooters face.

-The magwell should be redesigned into a mag funnel, to improve mag changes. This should be standard on all bullpups

-Hopefully they will employ the K&M M17 style trigger linkage, which pulls the sear rather then pushes against it. This allows a much lighter/crisper trigger.

-Ideally it will employ a X95 style magazine and bolt release.
View Quote
Wait... why is that not the standard? I've never even seen any bullpup with a proper magwell! I hadn't considered that.
Link Posted: 10/14/2019 1:15:26 PM EDT
Agreed on all points made ITT.  I'll just add that it does look better than many other designs I've seen out of the gate.  And that all alloy isn't an issue if it has a cheek protector like the K&M does.
Link Posted: 10/14/2019 7:47:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pyotr_k:
Wait... why is that not the standard? I've never even seen any bullpup with a proper magwell! I hadn't considered that.
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Originally Posted By pyotr_k:
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
It looks OK.

Main points:
-It absolutely needs a shell deflector to allow off side shooting; something similar to the Corvus AUG shell deflector.

-Hopefully the production version will be made of polymer. Solid aluminum will get hot / cold, and also likely transmit more vibration into the shooters face.

-The magwell should be redesigned into a mag funnel, to improve mag changes. This should be standard on all bullpups

-Hopefully they will employ the K&M M17 style trigger linkage, which pulls the sear rather then pushes against it. This allows a much lighter/crisper trigger.

-Ideally it will employ a X95 style magazine and bolt release.
Wait... why is that not the standard? I've never even seen any bullpup with a proper magwell! I hadn't considered that.
I know, its something that occurred to me last year, and I too was amazed it wasn't a standard feature.

The beauty of the bullpup is that since the magwell is in the stock (typically the widest part of a firearm) you can have a really generous mag funnel in there without increasing the width.

I'd love to see an updated AUG stock that incorporated a mag funnel and integral shell deflector.
Link Posted: 10/16/2019 8:30:32 PM EDT
Neeeeat...
Link Posted: 10/17/2019 7:52:57 PM EDT
Hopefully Beretta markets a civilian version.
Link Posted: 10/17/2019 8:37:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2019 10:34:25 PM EDT by mcb]
I handled it this week at AUSA and I think there will still be a lot of minor changes between those prototypes on display in the GD booth and anything that goes into production, if it ever does.

The magazine was a modified Lancer.  There were two extra lugs soldered/epoxed to the bottom edge of the metal feed lip insert to help stabilize the magazine in the mag well.

It appeared to be a two lug bolt with something close to 90 deg rotation going into battery.

Charging handle was a non-reciprocating folder on the weak side, it appeared to be reversible.  The weak side ejection port cover appears to also contain the bolt release button and two other buttons that I assume are how you removed e cover and move it to the other side as part of the switch to southpaw mode.

There was a lot of obvious hand fitting and "dremeling" on various internal parts to make things fit and function.  Definitely had a prototype feel when you handle it.

The fire mode selector and safety are two separate controls.  The selector is an AR style rotating lever.  The tradition AR safe position is semi auto and rotating down about 135 degree of rotation (about half way between traditional AR semi and auto) is auto.  The safety is a side to side button/rocker located directly above the selector pivot.  I assume it will be reversible for lefties.

It fires from the open bolt in full-auto and if I didn't miss something it appears that when it locks back on the last round in a magazine after inserting a fresh magazine you still have to remember to release the bolt off the last round hold open mechanism.  Visually it was very hard to see the difference between the last round hold open and lock back ready to fire in full-auto.   Going to take a bit of training/practice to remember that if it's true.  Hopefully some type of indicator is included so you know your are ready to fire in full auto and not on the bolt lock.

Also if the bolt it back for full auto and you switch to semi-auto the bolt did not automatically close for me.  That would make your first semi-auto round fired from the open bolt unless you somehow manually close the bolt.  There is no doubt a manual of arms for this transition I did not figure out.

It's a prototype so no doubt there will be continual improvements and tweeks.  I am not a big fan of bullpups but the ergonomics and balance of this one felt better than most bullpups do for me.
Link Posted: 10/17/2019 8:39:40 PM EDT
Looks kinda long
Link Posted: 10/17/2019 11:27:59 PM EDT
Here's the video of the RM277:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujgsS_RY6ys

Looks extremely controllable in FA, especially given the fact that the cartridge has 15% more energy then .308. ROF looks to be a optimum ~600rpm.

Also, the weapon has a forward ejection system, so my previous comments about it needing a shell deflector seem moot.

Overall, after seeing the video I'm much more bullish on the design. With the continued tweaking and polishing that goes into moving from prototyping to production, I think it will be a real winner.

In terms of barrel length, GD has not posted specs. But I counted ~40 slots on its picatinny rail - which is 16" of rail. That means the carbine likely has an 18-20" barrel, and the Automatic Rifle likely has a 20-22" barrel.

Given that SIG's offering is doing 3000fps from a 16" barrel, its likely GD is getting 3100fps-3200fps from its longer barrels.
Link Posted: 10/17/2019 11:32:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mcb:
I handled it this week at AUSA and I think there will still be a lot of minor changes between those prototypes on display in the GD booth and anything that goes into production, if it ever does.

The magazine was a modified Lancer.  There were two extra lugs soldered/epoxed to the bottom edge of the metal feed lip insert to help stabilize the magazine in the mag well.

It appeared to be a two lug bolt with something close to 90 deg rotation going into battery.

Charging handle was a non-reciprocating folder on the weak side, it appeared to be reversible.  The weak side ejection port cover appears to also contain the bolt release button and two other buttons that I assume are how you removed e cover and move it to the other side as part of the switch to southpaw mode.

There was a lot of obvious hand fitting and "dremeling" on various internal parts to make things fit and function.  Definitely had a prototype feel when you handle it.

The fire mode selector and safety are two separate controls.  The selector is an AR style rotating lever.  The tradition AR safe position is semi auto and rotating down about 135 degree of rotation (about half way between traditional AR semi and auto) is auto.  The safety is a side to side button/rocker located directly above the selector pivot.  I assume it will be reversible for lefties.

It fires from the open bolt in full-auto and if I didn't miss something it appears that when it locks back on the last round in a magazine after inserting a fresh magazine you still have to remember to release the bolt off the last round hold open mechanism.  Visually it was very hard to see the difference between the last round hold open and lock back ready to fire in full-auto.   Going to take a bit of training/practice to remember that if it's true.  Hopefully some type of indicator is included so you know your are ready to fire in full auto and not on the bolt lock.

Also if the bolt it back for full auto and you switch to semi-auto the bolt did not automatically close for me.  That would make your first semi-auto round fired from the open bolt unless you somehow manually close the bolt.  There is no doubt a manual of arms for this transition I did not figure out.

It's a prototype so no doubt there will be continual improvements and tweeks.  I am not a big fan of bullpups but the ergonomics and balance of this one felt better than most bullpups do for me.
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Great info, thank you. I like the split safety design, kinda a hybrid between the AUG and AR.

Since its a modified Lancer, that means that the new TV277 is the same COL as 7.62?
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 9:16:40 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Looks kinda long
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+1

Seems that most bullpup designs are missing out on the whole being smaller thing lately.
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 9:36:25 AM EDT


This is the cartridge for the new GD rifle.  Its a hybrid cartridge (mostly polymer with a steel rim insert) from True Velocity but as you can see the shoulder has been modified from a traditional shape with no neck as is traditionally done in metal cartridges.  That said True Velocity is making tradition cartridges from this same construction/material.
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 10:57:04 AM EDT
If it’s reliable but my question would be what does it bring to the market IwI doesn’t.
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 2:11:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 2:32:03 PM EDT
So I can smoke bad guys and fix the toilet? Awesome!!!

All kidding aside I am not hot on that muzzle device. It's nice having something skinny when shooting under cars or out of small opening in case you are compressed and can't stand off your cover. Otherwise I like the concept and hope they push out something our folks can use.
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 4:20:06 PM EDT
The Delta P Designs Brevis III (I think this is the III or II+) suppressor is absolutely slick.  I don't think it is so wide that it would prevent you from shooting where a normal 1.5in suppressor wouldn't already.
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 7:09:01 PM EDT
Strange. Looks like a rifle designed by a committee of non-shooters.
Link Posted: 10/18/2019 7:49:28 PM EDT
I think it has the best aesthetics of the offerings and looks the most "thought through" design.  The Textron and Sig offerings look like they were just cobbled together from existing tech and slightly modified.

I am curious how this one is supposed to function , and why the safety and selector are different.

I also have no doubt the Sig will win, like they do everything these days.
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 12:46:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2019 12:52:50 PM EDT by Kent]
No version that will be available to us unwashed civilians = no care.

There are LOTS of weapons that are really great, but if they are "Govt ONLY" -- I really have difficulty getting excited about them.

The composite-cased cart is interesting, but I'm guessing pretty pricey too -- to quote "it's too expensive -- the only ones who can afford it are the military"
Link Posted: 10/19/2019 6:45:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Kent:
No version that will be available to us unwashed civilians = no care.

There are LOTS of weapons that are really great, but if they are "Govt ONLY" -- I really have difficulty getting excited about them.

The composite-cased cart is interesting, but I'm guessing pretty pricey too -- to quote "it's too expensive -- the only ones who can afford it are the military"
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I completely agree with this.  Granted, I'm interested in an academic sense, much in the way I'm interested in the form and function of a quick firing 5" naval gun, but beyond that, if there is zero chance of me ever owning one (owning...not being issued), then the interest meter drops to about zero.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 7:50:20 PM EDT
GD is the lead, but the actual firearm is being made by Beretta. Beretta likes to make money on Civilian sales, so I don't see why this couldn't be brought to market in a more civilized cartridge like .308 or 6.5 Creedmore.

Mmm... 6.5Creedmore.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 10:52:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 10:53:08 PM EDT by spydercomonkey]
The latest news:

RM277 Rifle = 20" barrel

RM277 Automatic Rifle = 22" barrel.

When we look at the high pressure case + long barrel length, velocity for the 130gr projectile is likely to be 3100-3200fps.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 10:53:29 PM EDT
Mcb’s description of the GD rifle sounds like there’s an L85 sitting in a darkened conference room calling the shots. Hopefully Beretta is imparting some sanity control to the design of they are involved.

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Originally Posted By SpyHawk:
GD is the lead, but the actual firearm is being made by Beretta. Beretta likes to make money on Civilian sales, so I don't see why this couldn't be brought to market in a more civilized cartridge like .308 or 6.5 Creedmore.

Mmm... 6.5Creedmore.
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One of my long term 2A fears is small arms acquisition is going to move towards the big defense contractors like Raytheon, General Dynamics, BAE Systems, etc.  They know how to milk those Uncle Sugar dollars and give zero fucks about the commercial/civil side of the market. Need a new exclusive rifle system that costs $10k a throw, requires goofy single-source parts, fires space-gun ammo made from unobtanium, and don’t want it sold to the peons? They’d get it done.

At least the traditional small arms players like Sig, Beretta, and FN try to make their systems available to non-mil purchasers in legal configurations.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 2:03:19 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kfeltenberger:

I completely agree with this.  Granted, I'm interested in an academic sense, much in the way I'm interested in the form and function of a quick firing 5" naval gun, but beyond that, if there is zero chance of me ever owning one (owning...not being issued), then the interest meter drops to about zero.
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Although the cartridge concept seems good, in this particular case, I wouldn't be interested regardless of availability.  At least, not this rendition anyway.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 10:55:08 AM EDT
I wonder how many years till we get a forgotten weapons video on it and the cartridge like the multitude of other times the Army’s played this game.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 9:53:52 PM EDT
I stongly doubt that this will displace M15/M4/M27 carbines. I can see how this could be big step forward from 7.62 DM type of rifle.

The things that really seem like steps forward would be the "life-of-barrel", permanently attached, short supressor. That's an advance.

Lighter, higher pressure ammunition designs are coming, and they'll be an advance. Getting the guns to operate reliably, durably, with useful barrel life shooting high volumes of 65-80k psi ammunition will be an advance. Because we've got all these new ammunition designs, it'll be interesting to see which ones move forward.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 10:04:46 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SpyHawk:
GD is the lead, but the actual firearm is being made by Beretta. Beretta likes to make money on Civilian sales, so I don't see why this couldn't be brought to market in a more civilized cartridge like .308 or 6.5 Creedmore.

Mmm... 6.5Creedmore.
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I'd actually like it in the 6.8mm composite case assuming that someone starts selling that commercially.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 10:15:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Traderjac:
I am not a bullpup fan
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Yeah, this.  Putting my face and eyes next to the chamber/breach concerns me.
Link Posted: 10/29/2019 4:17:17 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ErikS:
Yeah, this.  Putting my face and eyes next to the chamber/breach concerns me.
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Originally Posted By ErikS:
Originally Posted By Traderjac:
I am not a bullpup fan
Yeah, this.  Putting my face and eyes next to the chamber/breach concerns me.
That’s pretty easy to mitigate with a proper design. That’s like not shooting bolt actions for fear of the bolt failing and lodging itself in your skull through your eye socket.

I’ve never seen any report of a modern military style Bullpup (nor shitty aftermarket conversions though I am more leery of them) ever wounding or blinding it’s operator during a catastrophic failure. There are plenty of countries who have run them in large numbers for decades and no issues. The L85 started out as a huge flaming piece of crap with a laundry list of issues and even with that turd it wasn’t an issue.
Link Posted: 10/29/2019 6:16:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By mcb:
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/image5.jpg

This is the cartridge for the new GD rifle.  Its a hybrid cartridge (mostly polymer with a steel rim insert) from True Velocity but as you can see the shoulder has been modified from a traditional shape with no neck as is traditionally done in metal cartridges.  That said True Velocity is making tradition cartridges from this same construction/material.
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Is that the cartridge being fired in the GD video?

It would be cool if civilian version came out that took standard brass cased ammo in 308WIN and 6.5 Creed
Link Posted: 10/29/2019 6:18:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By thesystem:
So I can smoke bad guys and fix the toilet? Awesome!!!

All kidding aside I am not hot on that muzzle device. It's nice having something skinny when shooting under cars or out of small opening in case you are compressed and can't stand off your cover. Otherwise I like the concept and hope they push out something our folks can use.
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The fat can may reduce the first round pop found in most designs.
Link Posted: 10/29/2019 7:18:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ErikS:

Yeah, this.  Putting my face and eyes next to the chamber/breach concerns me.
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Care to provide any quantitative evidence that bullpups are any more dangerous than conventional firearms and a few citations of their failures?
Link Posted: 10/29/2019 7:25:44 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kfeltenberger:

Care to provide any quantitative evidence that bullpups are any more dangerous than conventional firearms and a few citations of their failures?
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Nope, not lick but it still concerns me.  My fears are unfounded but still exist.
Link Posted: 11/2/2019 10:21:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Traderjac:
I am not a bullpup fan
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You're really not going to like this sub forum then.
Link Posted: 11/3/2019 4:42:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ErikS:
Yeah, this.  Putting my face and eyes next to the chamber/breach concerns me.
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Originally Posted By ErikS:
Originally Posted By Traderjac:
I am not a bullpup fan
Yeah, this.  Putting my face and eyes next to the chamber/breach concerns me.
Compared to the +100,000psi RDX-based propellants we & the Russians are both starting to look into...this possible.higher danger pales in comparison, and hardly matters.
Link Posted: 11/3/2019 9:28:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:

I know, its something that occurred to me last year, and I too was amazed it wasn't a standard feature.

The beauty of the bullpup is that since the magwell is in the stock (typically the widest part of a firearm) you can have a really generous mag funnel in there without increasing the width.

I'd love to see an updated AUG stock that incorporated a mag funnel and integral shell deflector.
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The AUG could also use some more forward sling mounting points. That QD in the front of the receiver gets in the way of the charging handle - hardly a good option for someone who actually plans to engage with the rifle and not just carry it.
Link Posted: 11/9/2019 8:36:30 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Apec:
The AUG could also use some more forward sling mounting points. That QD in the front of the receiver gets in the way of the charging handle - hardly a good option for someone who actually plans to engage with the rifle and not just carry it.
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Originally Posted By Apec:
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:

I know, its something that occurred to me last year, and I too was amazed it wasn't a standard feature.

The beauty of the bullpup is that since the magwell is in the stock (typically the widest part of a firearm) you can have a really generous mag funnel in there without increasing the width.

I'd love to see an updated AUG stock that incorporated a mag funnel and integral shell deflector.
The AUG could also use some more forward sling mounting points. That QD in the front of the receiver gets in the way of the charging handle - hardly a good option for someone who actually plans to engage with the rifle and not just carry it.
Agreed. I think their is a huge opportunity for an aftermarket stock like the MSAR E4 for example which has more mounting options, but I'd like to see the 70's era foregrip replaced with a slim handguard like the Claw Gear handguard with MLok so you can put a QD sling mount anywhere you want, plus build in a flared magwell in the stock since mag changes are always the first complaint people have about bullpups.
Link Posted: 1/24/2020 8:59:40 PM EDT
Got this pic today at SHOT.

ARX160 is 35.4" OAL w/ 16" barrel.

GD Bullpup is several inches shorter (31-32") w/ 20" barrel + suppressor.

Link Posted: 1/25/2020 11:33:30 PM EDT
That’s cool
Link Posted: 1/26/2020 10:54:41 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kali_Refugee:
That’s pretty easy to mitigate with a proper design. That’s like not shooting bolt actions for fear of the bolt failing and lodging itself in your skull through your eye socket.

I’ve never seen any report of a modern military style Bullpup (nor shitty aftermarket conversions though I am more leery of them) ever wounding or blinding it’s operator during a catastrophic failure. There are plenty of countries who have run them in large numbers for decades and no issues. The L85 started out as a huge flaming piece of crap with a laundry list of issues and even with that turd it wasn’t an issue.
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Originally Posted By Kali_Refugee:
Originally Posted By ErikS:
Originally Posted By Traderjac:
I am not a bullpup fan
Yeah, this.  Putting my face and eyes next to the chamber/breach concerns me.
That’s pretty easy to mitigate with a proper design. That’s like not shooting bolt actions for fear of the bolt failing and lodging itself in your skull through your eye socket.

I’ve never seen any report of a modern military style Bullpup (nor shitty aftermarket conversions though I am more leery of them) ever wounding or blinding it’s operator during a catastrophic failure. There are plenty of countries who have run them in large numbers for decades and no issues. The L85 started out as a huge flaming piece of crap with a laundry list of issues and even with that turd it wasn’t an issue.
I'd love to see a Blackout fired through an RDB.  More an issue with BO than the rifle, but an issue nonetheless.
Link Posted: 1/26/2020 10:55:59 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:
Got this pic today at SHOT.

ARX160 is 35.4" OAL w/ 16" barrel.

GD Bullpup is several inches shorter (31-32") w/ 20" barrel + suppressor.

https://i.ibb.co/CmR5VDJ/NGSW-GD-Bullpup-vs-ARX-160.jpg
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About the same with the stock folded, too.
Link Posted: 1/27/2020 4:31:10 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SpyHawk:
GD is the lead, but the actual firearm is being made by Beretta. Beretta likes to make money on Civilian sales, so I don't see why this couldn't be brought to market in a more civilized cartridge like .308 or 6.5 Creedmore.

Mmm... 6.5Creedmore.
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As soon as the military settles on a new cartridge, you'll be surprised how quickly it becomes "civilized". The ammo industry will start cranking out loadings with "civilian" projectiles. The rifle won't necessarily need a different chamber.
Link Posted: 1/27/2020 5:15:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bbies1973:
As soon as the military settles on a new cartridge, you'll be surprised how quickly it becomes "civilized". The ammo industry will start cranking out loadings with "civilian" projectiles. The rifle won't necessarily need a different chamber.
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Originally Posted By bbies1973:
Originally Posted By SpyHawk:
GD is the lead, but the actual firearm is being made by Beretta. Beretta likes to make money on Civilian sales, so I don't see why this couldn't be brought to market in a more civilized cartridge like .308 or 6.5 Creedmore.

Mmm... 6.5Creedmore.
As soon as the military settles on a new cartridge, you'll be surprised how quickly it becomes "civilized". The ammo industry will start cranking out loadings with "civilian" projectiles. The rifle won't necessarily need a different chamber.
Yeah, I should have put quotes around the word "civilized".

But the regular dirt shooter will want cheaper 762 surplus to blast away with.
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