I am contemplating throwing down. Based on your experience, & compared to a standard rifle, how does a heavy caliber bullpup rate? I understand the HG can heat up rapidly, & things like lack of LoP adjustment, the weight, & "average" accuracy of the T7 are what seem to stick out in my mind. I've also never owned a BP before, so new/different territory. Looking back on it was the juice worth the squeeze for this one?

I’m happy with it so far.

I’m a lefty shooter so the ambi controls and the ability to change ejection side quickly in the field are fantastic.

There is  a lot of value in its price when you look at what other battle rifle platforms are going for.



Its a whole lot of rifle in a small package.

Attached File


I caved and bought one at the end of the year when Kygunco offered (what I thought was) a smoking deal on the ODG flavor.  I decided to do a FDE/OFG/black mix on the parts and liked how it looks.  Deconstructed woodland camo? Haven’t had a chance to shoot it yet but I can offer more ergonomic thoughts.

The skinny factory buttpad sucks.  The Manticore curved one should be OEM, it’s truly worth the money.  It handles very much like the SAR so it’s very familiar; the same IDF 6-point hold works with it.  Trigger is very nice, step above the X95 pack I use in my SAR.  Given the somewhat middling accuracy the 7 is known for, it wouldn’t be worth upgrading should the usual players come out with one.  It feels heavy but it’s distributed pretty nicely.  Handling it after messing around with a FAL or G3 makes it seem so much smarter.  I don’t like the X95-style mag release, it’s pretty stiff.  I think the SAR-style would have been better.

I have a tiny bit of South African and somewhat larger quantities of Port and Malay .308 surplus so I am little concerned given the stories it can have trouble with surplus.  Time will tell.  I’m not as worried about it turning in disappointing results accuracy-wise since I didn’t intend for this to be a precision setup.

I really like mine, but it's really heavy. If you throw an lvpo on there and a suppressor it's get to be prohibitively heavy. Probably unavoidable for a 308 but I don't shoot it as much because of it.

I've owned most of the big non-AR 308 battle rifles: FAL, SCAR 17S, B&T APC308, PTR91, and Tavor 7.  I've also shot an M1A a bit so I have some experience there.

My favorite is the SCAR 17S, but the factory stock beat the shit out of my cheek so it wasn't comfortable at all to shoot.  I didn't want to add the ACR stock due to what people said online about it beating the shit out of itself and fucking up the rear screws with the ACR stock.  Didn't want to buy a 20S, either, but I may down the road so I can get my fix back.

The Tavor 7 is a VERY, VERY close second to the SCAR 17S in terms of how good of a battle rifle it is.  Hell on a certain day I may even say I like the T7 more than the SCAR.  It's a great gun.  It is heavy, but it is very well balanced.  The action is smoother than the SCAR 17S which is nice.

It's fully ambi, has a great gas system (4 positions), and recoil is very low.  The factory trigger in the Tavor 7 absolutely shits on the factory SCAR 17S trigger.  Granted with a Geissele in the 17S it is quite a bit nicer than the T7 trigger.  But out of the box the T7 has a much nicer trigger which is surprising for a bullpup.  My T7 trigger breaks right at 4.9lb.

The T7 feels really good to hold, point, and shoot.  Findsman hit it on the mark in that the factory buttpad sucks.  I put a Manticore on mine and it is awesome now.

The only negatives of the T7 are the weight, and the accuracy which isn't TERRIBLE as long as you understand the purpose of the gun - a CQB/urban - midrange battle rifle.  It's not meant to be a precision rifle or DMR.  Accuracy with good ammo is about 1.5 MOA.

All in all it's a phenomenal battle rifle.  I'd put it right up there with the SCAR 17S in terms of how good it is.  In terms of price, too, it's the best bang for your buck as well.  A highly reliable, durable, battle rifle made by a company with a longstanding history of proven military and combat weaponry.

ETA: one warning for you - if you want to put a muzzle brake on the T7 then just be aware since it's a bullpup the muzzle is closer to your face so concussion will be way more obnoxious back to the shooter than on a rifle with a traditional layout.  I put a PWS PRC30 on it which is an even better version of the SCAR 17S' brake and the blast back to the shooter is fucking brutal.  The factory compensator isn't bad at all, but anything with large ports on it may be a bit annoying to shoot.  I went back to the factory brake after experiencing the concussion from the PWS.

There is some talk about it being able to better handle steel cased ammo upon sufficient break in.

I liked mine ok, it was 100% reliable but I only used brass. Accuracy. wasn’t great but wasn’t terrible either. 2.5/3 moa with ball. It’s porker but it mitigates the weight pretty nicely.  I’ve thought about picking up another one at some point.

Mine has gotten a pretty steady diet of surplus Hirtenberger which is supposed to have pretty hard primers.  Never had an issue shooting that.  Can't speak to steel ammo, though, as I only shoot brass out of my guns.

I'm not much of a "308 guy" but I do enjoy this gun.  It's certainly not a sniper rifle, but it is plenty accurate for battle rifle work.

If you need a compact 308 you can certainly do worse...

FullAssault, what scope do you have on this rifle?

Thanks

The only failures I've had with my T7 have been with Wolf. So I'd recommend staying away from the steel case stuff.  The batch of Hirtenberger I have is practically worthless, were talking like 6 moa worthless at 100yrds. That was confirmed thought multiple different guns (2x T7s, FALs, POF) so I'd recommend staying away from that as well.

The S.A. M80 I have it seems to shoot pretty well.  I haven't done extensive accuracy work with it but it tends to like the heavier grain bullets. Some of the results I do have are below:

Hirtenberger: 6.017 MOA and 3.876 MOA
S.A. R1M1: 4.080 MOA
Magtech M80: 2.998 MOA and 1.535 MOA
Wolf 145gr: 4.492 MOA
Grind Hard 168gr SMK HPBT: 2.198 MOA
Defender Ammo 175gr BTHP: 2.669 MOA and 3.800 MOA
Winchester white box 147gr: 4.424 MOA
Am Eagle 150gr: 3.117 MOA

I'm not really a "great" shooter but I feel this should give an ok expectation of accuracy. These were shot w/ a 3x magnifier and are sample sizes of 1 or 2, so take that for what its worth.

Reliability (with the exception of Wolf) has been 100%.

Your shooting data seems to jive with some professional reviews as well showing 2 to 5 moa with 5 shot groups.  So it seems you are shooting quite well on this platform.

https://www.anacortesgunshop.com/iwi-tavor-7-in-762-nato-review

Note the 3 shot groups show better performance. However 5 shot groups are a more accurate representation of the Rifle performance.

I like mine a lot, balances great with a suppressor. But yes it's a tad heavy compared to my lightweight AR10 build. I don't notice that much because of the great balance. Love the suppressor gas setting, works great for me. If you want a compact, handy, full power battle rifle, then the Tavor 7 is it for sure!!

Meprolight RDS pro V2

Mixed feelings…

Mine won’t shoot hard-primered ammo reliably idk it’s dirty AT ALL.  So not only steel case cheap stuff, but things like L2A2 mil surplus. After a fresh detail clean and lube I can only through a couple mags of steel case or Malaysian/African surplus before stoppages become frequent.

If I pull out the FP spring and it will reliably shoot hard primer stuff, but then it will sometimes slam fire soft primers like commercial 308 and hand loads… especially if it’s clean without the FP spring.  Let me stress to you how NOT fun forgetting to put the spring back in and then unexpectedly  slamfiring a mag of FGMM is with an ACOG in front of your eye is

One of these days I need to get a spare FP spring and maybe cut some coils off for a happy medium. I think a Ti firing pin or extra power hammer spring would solve the problem too if someone made some.

Aside from the whole not eating cheap ammo thing…  it’s awesome and in spite of that it’s my favorite semiauto rifle.  If I ever have to evacuate/bugout with the family, it’s one of two rifles I’m bringing with me.

2-3 MOA accuracy is not a problem for what it is designed for…  It’s a bullpup, not a DMR.  Even if the thing could shoot 1MOA, it’s goofy as hell to try and lay out prone or shoot from a bench with anyways. Toss a short can and a red dot, prism, or lightweight 1-4x/6x LPVO on it then go enjoy your easy to carry 0-400yd urban-cover perforator.

On the other hand, a nearly $2k “military pedigree” Israeli battle rifle that can’t eat ANY & ALL .308/7.62NATO you throw at it is a legitimate concern.

Thanks FullAssault, great pics!

You’re welcome, All of mine have been great sights.

Wow. I picked up the same optic for my Tavor and now I see just how much my astigmatism is messing it up. Wish my reticle looked anything like that!

That looks great! I like the green/black combo.

I have a big stash of SA and Port surplus as well.  I'd love to hear your feedback on how it shoots with them.  I'll probably get one late spring if use with milsurp ammo is G2G.

I wonder if the military versions have the same firing pin spring?  

They might have thrown that on the civvie version only due to larger variation of ammo.

The Tavor 7 hasn't been adopted by any military yet, and I am unaware of any military trials that have evaluated them.

I've shot prob. 2-300 rounds thus far of SA surplus... Not a single issue.  Prob close to 500+ rounds of Hertenberger as well, not a single issue with it.  My buddy has prob. about the same amount of Hert through his (maybe more) and not a single issue either.

As stated above the only ammo issues I've had are related to Wolf. Maybe they've made some inline updates/improvements to increase reliability with surplus ammo? My rifle is about a year old at this point.

Your point is?

I said that on this forum a while back and was told the Israelis are using it.

Good to know. I'd probably remove the firing pin spring on mine. I'd never shoot commercial or reloads in it.

For whatever reason some people think if a military hasn't adopted it then it isn't synonymous with quality.

People also like to say the T7 is a gun developed for the civilian market that didn't have military use in mind which is false.  IWI's owned website states:

.

The Israeli one is also select-fire.

If no military is using it, including the Israelis, it hasn't gone through any of the military updates.  They made have a select fire version but we can't assume there are any other details different about it.  (Such as the firing pin Spring).

For example the x95 military version was updated for dual extractors (and then those updates made it to the civilian ones).

But we can't just assume a weapon system that hasn't been used anywhere has any improvements.

Again. That doesn’t make a platform weak.

IWI designs each gun with at at least 15 to 25k rounds fired through them per each testing guns with 5 or more testing rigs. EACH design phase (alpha/beta/final production stages) goes through that firing schedule and the platform doesn’t progress to a new stage without having passed the current stage of requirements. So you get a platform that has been tested and evaluated with tens of thousands of rounds through each stage.

That is HK level of testing. Not many do it anymore. It is the reason why IWI guns take a while to come to market.

Regardless if it’s a contract gun or not. ALL of them go through the SAME testing protocols as if they are for the military…it’s an IWI process in Israel. Your statements how it isn’t mil spec is just plain false…it’s tested above and beyond mil standards.

I bet you haven’t even detail stripped a T7 have you? Because if you have…you would see just how overbuilt it is…similarly to a SCAR 17.

So when a unit or country solicits IWI products…they already have the data to show what it achieved and how well it did.

Actually, dual ejectors on the X95 came from the civilian side when the 300BO was developed for OUR CIVILIAN market need…which then was made into a rolling change to all X95 guns…include 556 guns.

It is also why so many countries buy the manufacturing rights and setup their own small arms manufacturing from IWI and HK…IWI‘s in-house testing often exceeds any national solicitation requirements…IWI has white paper on all their platforms.

But it’s cool to be an internet milspec LARPing ninja…all the while not knowing anything about how things go regarding a topic you are talking about…kudos.

Again, I am not talking about if it is going to work or not.

I am talking about the guy I responded to asking if any cool military updates were made to the T7, such as the firing pin Spring to improve reliability (that he talked about).  Pretty hard to have military upgrades when no military is using it.

I honestly have no idea what 3/4 of your arguement is about as it clearly wasn't directed at me.

The gun is built around NATO M80 and M118R…

If people using ammo outside those primers as spec’d by NATO standards…you’ll have issues…

Early on many had problems because they didn’t read the manual which called for removing the preservative oil and the firing pin area got gummy with use…it’s a lightweight cosmoline essentially…

With .308 made in so many places…you might as well stick to US stock ammo or new production european…

This is no different than running AR10s…some rounds are a hit and miss reliability wise. Some work in some platforms. Some don’t. Etc.

You contradicted your own statement in this thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Looking-for-a-quality-tough-308-bullpup-host-for-a-suppressor/43-539501/



In addition to that Tom from IWI said in the Larry Vicker's SHOT SHOW 2018 video where they announced the T7 that the IDF was evaluating it.

Also from the same thread...



Which isn't true either since the Israeli version is a select-fire weapon designed for military and LE use as stated on IWI's website.

That is a good point to.  They may not even want to consider that issue.



Good catch, I forgot about the Indian Trials.  Anyone hear about any design improvements?



That doesn't mean it went through trials, trials are kind of a bigger deal.  Evaluating could be whether or not they need a battle rifle.



Being designed for military and LE use is not the same thing as actually being used in either of those.

https://iwi.net/iwi-tavor-rifle/tavor-7/

This is what they said:



It actually doesn't say what the nature of the collaboration is, and is written intentionally vague.  It could be: 'we want a rifle to be more ergonomic' rather than 'we want a 7.62 battle rifle for our infantry that shoots 2 to 5 moa'.  It reads like marketing speak to me.

Matter of fact this quote seems to indicate that it hasn't been adapted for military use yet:



If the IDF actually tested the Rifle it would be written closer to the x95 wording.

https://iwi.net/iwi-x95/

BROOOO you are taking this military fascination too crazy...

What are you talking about?

You are trying too hard to discredit (whether you realize it or not that’s not my problem) the Tavor 7’s reliability, build etc based on some fascination with “milspec testing and trials”…

Again. IWI’s own testing surpasses military trials…period. They have white paper on everything based on their evals…they are well respected globally and why they win soo many co-manufactured product lines. They make a killing not just on selling the machinery but also royalties all the while not having to mess around with laws they do not know.

The Tavor 7 passed all of them! Which surpasses the IDF’s own testing…not sure what is so hard to grasp…IWI’s testing is conducted at such micro levels that most military trials don’t even get close to…

No... I am responding to Zeebz saying that I didn't think there were any updates pushed from in service use as it isn't in service.  Now maybe the Indian trials uncovered some, and if so that should help the gun become more competitive in the next branch of gov trials (and hopefully those updates make it to the civilian ones).

As far as trusting a manufacturer on their products, without evidence, being better than outside tests... I heard that same story from Desert Tech.

I would be interested in reading that white paper if you can find it/post it.

White paper is for official use only. Not public. No chance of getting one unless it’s leaked.

Comparing IWI to DT as far as trust goes is a bit far stretched.

DT is not an example of how you should do product dev…I’ll give you that…the stupid thing I feel like is still in beta phase…mind you it has a great set of features not found anywhere else.

The last company I’d question about their testing and eval is IWI…

How much runtime do you have on it? Do you think it might break in & improve with a more rounds through it?

@IPMan

I have astigmatism but while not as crystal clear as FullAssault’s pics it’s pretty good. Mine is red(maybe makes a diff?)and I only paid $35X delivered.

Took my 76 yr old dad to sight his in this weekend. It’s a fun platform and was shooting decent groups for what it is once I got it dialed in.

Surprised to hear people discussing middling accuracy. Mine shoots ADI 165 SGKs to a pretty consistent 1.5 MOA, which is only maybe 1/2-2/3 MOA looser than my stainless MWS. Never tried FGMM or the like, so premium hunting ammo is the closest data point I can offer. That’s with a 4X Elcan and everything else OEM. It’s not a precision rifle but it shoots about as well as my 17, and my 17 shoots great. Maybe I just got lucky.

I took a pic of my Eotech's view and it was a huge red dot. That is not representative of what my eyeball is seeing. I will play with it some more and

try again.

My first bullpup as well. After a mere 200 rds, I like it ok. Years of fielding a fullsize battlerifle makes it a bit hard to get used to but, it's growing on me. All the weight at the rear is really different. It has a pretty good trigger pull compared to other rifles, overall length with a Gemtech One is very great, It's shorter suppressed than a fullsized rifle. the action is slick after those first rounds downrange. Overall, it's a rifle that will do what its expected to do. Thumbs up.

The finicky reliability WRT hard primers is what gives me some pause. Also haven't been able to source additional barrels, which is curious.

They've been in stock a few times but not in a while.  It's also only the 20" barrel.  IWI sells a kit that is the 20" barrel, new bolt that is headspaced for the barrel, and a few other little pieces for $530: https://iwi.us/product/tavor7-20-barrel-bolt-kit/

I would just love a 20" 1:8 twist 6.5 Creedmoor barrel conversion kit that would shoot sub 1.5 MOA.

I read someplace that here is a Gen 1 and Gen 2 with the latter being more accurate. Is this true and if so, appropriately when did the change happen? I’ve been weighing LAC, LMT, SCAR, etc and all have a trade off of some sort….including the Tavor. But if it’s trade off is an extra 1MOA, it’s definitely something to consider even with the other big names.