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Posted: 8/1/2018 1:33:37 PM EDT
Hey There,
Spent an interesting afternoon at Triggercon (a small shot show type trade show in the Seattle Area). Got to fondle the Tavor 7 and talk to some of the IWI guys and gals. Long story short, I am going to have to have one of these, unless reviews are awful.

1) Ambi. At the individual level
2) Mlock and Pic rail attachment points
3) Redundant controls
4) Good Ergos
5) Heavy but weight is in the back.
6) Decent stock trigger

One of the .mil IWI guys says he is getting "just over MOA - 1.3 MOA to be exact" with gold medal match. Best group was .38 at 100 yards. So allowing for trade show hyperbole, if it is a 1.5 to 2 MOA rifle it is going to do well and will probably kill off the MDR. Now add a Geisele trigger, an aftermarket barrel (for heavy 308 or 6.5) and you may really have something here.

I am a pretty jaded guy, and was there with an even more jaded guy, and we were both impressed.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 3:14:01 PM EDT
Errr...I'm from the NW, and even lived in Seattle....I've never heard of this event....they don't even have a website??
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 4:14:57 PM EDT
In b4 .308 blowing up in your face.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 8:09:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2018 8:10:12 PM EDT by Slimjim]
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Originally Posted By Mike_Golf:
In b4 .308 blowing up in your face.
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IWI has had a couple blown up Tavors including .300 shot in 5.56, the shooters have been uninjured according to IWI.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 8:31:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
Errr...I'm from the NW, and even lived in Seattle....I've never heard of this event....they don't even have a website??
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No shit, give us PNW cats more details about this.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 1:04:39 AM EDT
If it had on-the-fly switchable case ejection, a la Brretta ARX, I would fo.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 5:18:12 AM EDT
TRIGFERCON was held last week in Bellevue at the Mayden Bauer center. I have been to the one in the past that was held at the Tacoma Convention Center. Rainier Arms is the main sponsor/host of the event I believe and in the past you would obtain the tickets from their website.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 11:38:20 AM EDT
If it can hold a consistent 1.5 MOA it’ll be huge. It isn’t a precision rifle, but that drives a large segment of the non-.mil market. Look how much shit the X95 got for fliers.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 1:38:56 PM EDT
Cant wait saving pennies for this bad boy..
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 1:53:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2018 1:54:56 PM EDT by hoodfu]


Are they going to bring out a shorter barreled version with a pistol brace? I kid, but I've been jonesing ever since I saw the IWI Galil Ace pistol in 7.62 NATO.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 2:31:19 PM EDT
It's a bullpup, how on Earth would they be able to put a brace on it?
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 9:06:48 PM EDT
I'm hoping T7 will be 1-1.5 MOA. After giving up on the MostDisappointingRifle I've been watching T7 ever since and cannot wait for some real reviews on it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2018 5:28:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2018 5:32:24 AM EDT by ShadowAngel]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
If it had on-the-fly switchable case ejection, a la Brretta ARX, I would fo.
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It's not quite that fast, but there's a video on youtube where an IWI rep switches the ejection. Even taking his time, going super slow, and explaining every little thing he's doing, it takes a couple of minutes. If you knew the procedure and weren't explaining it out loud, i'd bet you'd be looking at a minute or less.
Link Posted: 8/3/2018 4:47:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2018 12:54:53 AM EDT by dushan]
Link Posted: 8/5/2018 11:39:23 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By _Dragoon_:
I'm hoping T7 will be 1-1.5 MOA. After giving up on the MostDisappointingRifle I've been watching T7 ever since and cannot wait for some real reviews on it.
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I'm right there with you. Sitting and waiting. I'll likely pick up a short frame 308 AR too
Link Posted: 8/10/2018 9:27:20 AM EDT
Just out of curiosity, what drives such a desire for a 7.62 bullpup?
Link Posted: 8/10/2018 9:50:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Winfield_C:
Just out of curiosity, what drives such a desire for a 7.62 bullpup?
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Personally I like a slightly shorter gun, if it benefits handling then all the better.
50cal rifles can get pretty long, Steyr HS is great imo
Link Posted: 8/10/2018 3:17:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Winfield_C:
Just out of curiosity, what drives such a desire for a 7.62 bullpup?
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I’m attracted to anything that let’s me carry more firepower in less package.
Link Posted: 8/11/2018 4:08:00 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ShadowAngel:
It's not quite that fast, but there's a video on youtube where an IWI rep switches the ejection. Even taking his time, going super slow, and explaining every little thing he's doing, it takes a couple of minutes. If you knew the procedure and weren't explaining it out loud, i'd bet you'd be looking at a minute or less.
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Originally Posted By ShadowAngel:
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
If it had on-the-fly switchable case ejection, a la Brretta ARX, I would fo.
It's not quite that fast, but there's a video on youtube where an IWI rep switches the ejection. Even taking his time, going super slow, and explaining every little thing he's doing, it takes a couple of minutes. If you knew the procedure and weren't explaining it out loud, i'd bet you'd be looking at a minute or less.
I get it. I just really fancy the tool-less nature of the dual extractor design, & it's just the ticket for a bullpup config.
Link Posted: 8/11/2018 7:59:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By GMZ:

No shit, give us PNW cats more details about this.
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Rainier Arms puts the event on every year. Go to their website or even better yet go to their store and check them out. Great service and great products and they stand behind everything they sell! Great guys!
Link Posted: 8/12/2018 12:08:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By doty_soty:

I’m attracted to anything that let’s me carry more firepower in less package.
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Define less package. The 308 bullpups currently available are shorter than a standard rifle but also way heavier. Sure, the weight is towards the rear, and for plinking it helps, but when you have to carry it a while or do a day or two of on the move shooting that weight adds up. For the cost of a 308 bullpup you can build a 5.5 lb 308 ar pretty easily. Once you tack on optics it adds up.

556 bullpups make a bit more sense because you likely won t want a bipod and really don't need much in the way of optics that weight much.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 12:48:03 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tom_servo11:

Define less package. The 308 bullpups currently available are shorter than a standard rifle but also way heavier. Sure, the weight is towards the rear, and for plinking it helps, but when you have to carry it a while or do a day or two of on the move shooting that weight adds up. For the cost of a 308 bullpup you can build a 5.5 lb 308 ar pretty easily. Once you tack on optics it adds up.

556 bullpups make a bit more sense because you likely won t want a bipod and really don't need much in the way of optics that weight much.
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Links to 5.5lb Ar308/ar10?

That’s tough to do with Ar15
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 1:10:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2018 1:43:53 AM EDT by WriterClarke]
Found some people talking about their lightweight builds and being able to push below 5 pounds. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/building-the-lightest-ar10-ever.822282

I'm not too enthralled by super lightweight builds, especially when it means you can't put as many rounds through at any given time due to accuracy opening up on pencil thin barrels. I've handled some sub-5 pound AR-15s (Robar's Polymar-15Ti, and there other offerings), and I still don't care for the balance compared to a bullpup.

I know for me personally, I'm gonna get a semi-auto .308 and use it more like a battle rifle than a DMR or precision rifle, and the Kel-Tec RFB and the K&M M17S, felt far better in the shoulder than the lighter weight .308 ARs I've handled. Most of my practical firearm experience is based around bullpups, so they feel more natural. It's a bias, but one that I have no issue with.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 1:36:11 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jupiter7:

Links to 5.5lb Ar308/ar10?

That’s tough to do with Ar15
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I just recently built one. It's not that hard to find the parts just pricey (about $1900) due to the niche parts and titanium used. Hell there's threads all over about even lighter ones. 2a receiver set, titanium adjustable carrier, faxon pencil barrel, titanium adjustable gas block, brigand arms atlas 12" handguard, titanium lpk, jp silent capture system, lots of stock options as long as you don't go too heavy. With a 1-8 variable scope, mount and bipod I'm at about 7 lbs for a 16" rifle.

If these 308 bullpups were $1k it would be tough to justify an ar platform because to build one at that cost will be nearly as heavy. Once you start getting closer to the $2k mark, it pretty much opens the door on any parts you want so not only can you get it very light but also very adjustable. The ar platform also benefits from easy modularity and easy replacement of parts if something breaks.

I've used 3 of the 4 newest 308 bullpups and while the balance is better, the weight of all of them REALLY adds up. Particularly once you put on optics. Again if they were $1k it would be different but at their cost you can cut nearly 3 lbs off!
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 1:37:45 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jupiter7:

Links to 5.5lb Ar308/ar10?

That’s tough to do with Ar15
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With an ar15 it's easy as hell. Even with an ar10 it isn't hard you just have to be willing to spend bullpup type money.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 1:41:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke:
Found some people talking about their lightweight builds and being able to push below 5 pounds. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/building-the-lightest-ar10-ever.822282

I'm not too enthralled by super lightweight builds, especially when it means you can't put as many rounds through at any given time due to accuracy opening up on pencil thin barrels. I've handled some sub-5 pound AR-15s (Robar's Polymar-15Ti, and there other offerings), and I still don't care for the balance compared to a bullpup.
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For just shooting I agree, I like the balance of a bullpup too. But I backpack and do moving and shooting while in the mountains and that 3 lbs adds up real quick. Now if my choice was a 8.5lb bullpup vs an 8.5lb ar10? Sure no brainer bullpup all day. If the mdr kept to it's original weight spec it would be different.

Pencil barrels aren't a problem on average shooting. For military purposes and sustained high volume shooting Sure, it's not ideal. So far the bullpups haven't shown to be laser accurate anyway and I don't mag dump in 308, however if you use a heavier barrel you are talking adding half a pound. So 6lb instead of 5.5. Meh.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 2:00:51 AM EDT
In the end, some of us just want a .308 bullpup, and not just another AR-10. Subjectively, an AR-10 is better due to the aftermarket options, but bullpups are slowly getting more attention, and we'll start seeing people push designs that lighten up our options in the bullpup realm that'll eventually make that difference moot.

Hell, even if we get a 6 pound .308 bullpup, it'll be pretty fantastic with a bullpup's balance compared to a 4.5 lb AR-10.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 2:48:57 AM EDT
Why can't bullpup makers use a normal trigger guard?
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 3:06:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Why can't bullpup makers use a normal trigger guard?
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They can. They just don’t a lot of the time. With the Austrians I think it was for ease of use with gloves since they have the Alps and such to contend with. I don’t know why the Israelis went that way. The French went regular trigger guard on the most procured version of the FAMAs and the Brits did too on their L85 family.

If I remember correctly and zooming in on the pic of the tav7 it has the correct lines to make me think I’m right it uses the same grip assembly as the x95 so you could unbolt it and slap on a standard style grip / trigger guard on instead of the cutlass whole hand style if you wanted.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 10:34:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WriterClarke:
In the end, some of us just want a .308 bullpup, and not just another AR-10. Subjectively, an AR-10 is better due to the aftermarket options, but bullpups are slowly getting more attention, and we'll start seeing people push designs that lighten up our options in the bullpup realm that'll eventually make that difference moot.

Hell, even if we get a 6 pound .308 bullpup, it'll be pretty fantastic with a bullpup's balance compared to a 4.5 lb AR-10.
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I don't think you even need it that light. If you can get a 7 lb flat bullpup it would be money. And really I'm not entirely sure why that shouldn't be possible in today's world. Nearly all the bullpups are heavily plastic so to me it ought to be doable to get the weight down. The k&m is all aluminum and is at least on par with the others in terms of weight so the plastic ones don't need yo be that heavy.

The problem I see is to really get the weight down you might need a whole new design. The lack of modularity on most of the bullpup designs makes it rather difficult to get the kind of weight shavings needed. Keep in mind the weight of a 308 matters more than a 556 because add in a likely optic and a full 308 mag and now you are talking really heavy. At least with a 556 the mag isn't too bad and they get run with red dots a lot.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 5:48:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 7:04:14 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WriterClarke:
Found some people talking about their lightweight builds and being able to push below 5 pounds. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/building-the-lightest-ar10-ever.822282

I'm not too enthralled by super lightweight builds, especially when it means you can't put as many rounds through at any given time due to accuracy opening up on pencil thin barrels. I've handled some sub-5 pound AR-15s (Robar's Polymar-15Ti, and there other offerings), and I still don't care for the balance compared to a bullpup.
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Regarding "pencil" barrels, I suggest taking a look at InRange's WWSD series and the tests they ran on the Faxon pencil barrels. IIRC, they didn't see any real changes using *those* barrels as compared to contemporary heavier barrels.
Link Posted: 8/15/2018 12:55:23 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kfeltenberger:

Regarding "pencil" barrels, I suggest taking a look at InRange's WWSD series and the tests they ran on the Faxon pencil barrels. IIRC, they didn't see any real changes using *those* barrels as compared to contemporary heavier barrels.
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That's really always been the case with pencil barrels in semi autos. For people using full auto there's a real difference but the military not using pencil barrels (For obvious reasons) have made civilians think they are somehow bad for normal use.
Link Posted: 8/15/2018 1:55:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2018 2:01:31 AM EDT by WriterClarke]
I've seen those videos, I've just had pencil barrels open up pretty quickly from 1.5 MOA to pushing over 4 MOA. I've no doubt pencil barrels can retain their accuracy, just prior experience makes me hesitant to trust 'em. A personal bias undoubtedly.
Link Posted: 8/15/2018 8:37:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Tom_servo11:
That's really always been the case with pencil barrels in semi autos. For people using full auto there's a real difference but the military not using pencil barrels (For obvious reasons) have made civilians think they are somehow bad for normal use.
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Originally Posted By Tom_servo11:
Originally Posted By kfeltenberger:

Regarding "pencil" barrels, I suggest taking a look at InRange's WWSD series and the tests they ran on the Faxon pencil barrels. IIRC, they didn't see any real changes using *those* barrels as compared to contemporary heavier barrels.
That's really always been the case with pencil barrels in semi autos. For people using full auto there's a real difference but the military not using pencil barrels (For obvious reasons) have made civilians think they are somehow bad for normal use.
Yep. I also think that the technology and materials science/engineering that is used by better companies today to produce pencil barrels is much, much better than what we had even twenty-five or thirty years ago.
Link Posted: 8/16/2018 12:09:50 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke:
I've seen those videos, I've just had pencil barrels open up pretty quickly from 1.5 MOA to pushing over 4 MOA. I've no doubt pencil barrels can retain their accuracy, just prior experience makes me hesitant to trust 'em. A personal bias undoubtedly.
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Fair enough
Link Posted: 8/26/2018 2:29:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Tom_servo11:

Define less package. The 308 bullpups currently available are shorter than a standard rifle but also way heavier. Sure, the weight is towards the rear, and for plinking it helps, but when you have to carry it a while or do a day or two of on the move shooting that weight adds up. For the cost of a 308 bullpup you can build a 5.5 lb 308 ar pretty easily. Once you tack on optics it adds up.

556 bullpups make a bit more sense because you likely won t want a bipod and really don't need much in the way of optics that weight much.
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A 5.5 lb 308??? Show me how and I will build that tomorrow! I have to agree the bullpups seem unnecessarily heavy although I don't know jack about designing guns. The X95 is a brick but it is one of my favorites.
Link Posted: 8/27/2018 8:34:45 PM EDT
Here is a guide for a 4.5lbs AR10: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/building-the-lightest-ar10-ever.822282/

With a whole additional pound to play with, you can go nuts! Seriously though, it is easy to build lightweight AR10s now.
Link Posted: 8/28/2018 10:33:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2018 10:34:08 AM EDT by Garik]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tom_servo11:

Define less package. The 308 bullpups currently available are shorter than a standard rifle but also way heavier. Sure, the weight is towards the rear, and for plinking it helps, but when you have to carry it a while or do a day or two of on the move shooting that weight adds up. For the cost of a 308 bullpup you can build a 5.5 lb 308 ar pretty easily. Once you tack on optics it adds up.

556 bullpups make a bit more sense because you likely won t want a bipod and really don't need much in the way of optics that weight much.
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On the other hand, it'll likely be about 9-10 pounds with an optic, and I don't mind that. I tried the lightweight stuff, never going back to it. Can't shoot em as well, and while practice can alleviate the issue some it won't counteract the fact I just shoot better with a heavier rifle. I typically avoid bipods now too. Not everyone goes and thinks every .308 has to have a bipod.
Link Posted: 8/28/2018 3:30:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2018 3:30:27 PM EDT by doty_soty]
I don’t know why we are comparing the weight of boutique or custom assembled .308 AR’s to an off the shelf rifle geared towards the .mil/LE market. If it’s being compared, you may as well compare it to it’s competitors.

Any update on this rifle? Last I knew it was supposed to be out at the end of this month, which is now.
Link Posted: 8/28/2018 3:58:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2018 3:59:35 PM EDT by TW52]
I hope the accuracy reports are true. This would make an excellent hunting rifle for deep woods hunts.
Link Posted: 8/31/2018 9:44:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:
I don’t know why we are comparing the weight of boutique or custom assembled .308 AR’s to an off the shelf rifle geared towards the .mil/LE market. If it’s being compared, you may as well compare it to it’s competitors.

Any update on this rifle? Last I knew it was supposed to be out at the end of this month, which is now.
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Ummmm because they cost the same, shoot the same round and use the same mag. It just is way heavier and has a worse trigger.
Link Posted: 8/31/2018 11:31:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2018 11:31:13 PM EDT by ShadowAngel]
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Originally Posted By Tom_servo11:

Ummmm because they cost the same, shoot the same round and use the same mag. It just is way heavier and has a worse trigger.
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Totally different gun. AR variants are a dime a dozen. Bullpups have advantages over AR10's as well.
Link Posted: 9/1/2018 12:29:27 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tom_servo11:

Ummmm because they cost the same, shoot the same round and use the same mag. It just is way heavier and has a worse trigger.
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But they are still different rifles, and setting up any gun against an AR platform is a losing battle. Even the venerable AK platform is paled in comparison. When bullpups and bullpup parts are being put out to the same degree, then your complaints against them would be sensible.
Link Posted: 9/8/2018 12:29:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By WriterClarke:

But they are still different rifles, and setting up any gun against an AR platform is a losing battle. Even the venerable AK platform is paled in comparison. When bullpups and bullpup parts are being put out to the same degree, then your complaints against them would be sensible.
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You can't compare two different firearms? That's weird. I'm pretty sure every firearm in existence is compared to another one. Can you not compare a lever action to an ar platform? Are the complaints against s lever action invalid because the ar platform is so much better? That's a strange position.

I've had quite a few bullpups. In thought and design they are pretty cool. It's a fun novelty having the decreased package for a while. A lot of them look neat too. But when you get into the weight, cost, trigger, parts availability, and mediocre accuracy I just don't really get it beyond the novelty aspect. I have no doubt they will improve and capitalism will get some nice upgrades going (like triggers already have). But most the bullpups just don t add up in a pros vs cons with other proven platforms.

That doesn't mean I have a problem with people buying them or that they're all crap. At least half of being into firearms is the cool factor and buying what turns you on, nothing wrong with that at all. My whole interjection in this thread was just to see what people like about that them over what you can buy or build as an ar or ak. Different folks different strokes so I'm not being critical of anyone.

I do find it odd to not compare them to other rifles though. At this point every new rifle should be compared to an ar and ak. At $1k I think the pros of a bullpup might push either of those. At around 2k though it's like comparing the bullpup to a super gucci ar with almost anything you want. I would guess we all, for the most part, want the most effective gun for our money, so comparing them makes a lot of sense.
Link Posted: 9/19/2018 3:53:07 PM EDT
So what's the latest on the delivery date? The last I heard IWI's official delivery date was July but there has been a lot of speculation about delays.
Link Posted: 9/19/2018 6:22:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ledo2:
So what's the latest on the delivery date? The last I heard IWI's official delivery date was July but there has been a lot of speculation about delays.
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It is currently delayed with no ETA on when it will be released.

AllOutdoor.Com Article
Link Posted: 9/19/2018 6:57:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ledo2:
So what's the latest on the delivery date? The last I heard IWI's official delivery date was July but there has been a lot of speculation about delays.
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Someone on BPF said IWI said (how’s that for an authoritative non-hearsay source?) they’re ready to go, but didn’t meet accuracy spec, so they’re pulling their barrels. I have no idea as to the veracity of that claim. If true, I at least like that they know the American civilian market values precision, and are working to meet that desire.

It still blows though.
Link Posted: 9/19/2018 7:53:22 PM EDT
Thanks, that's the same type of update I've seen. I'm good they seem to be on top of the quality issues before they go out the door.
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