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Posted: 8/8/2018 8:59:45 AM EDT
Some time ago I acquired a pdf of a target for a 50/200 zero at 25- basically "aim here, bullets should impact there, and you're good".

Trigonometry isn''t my thing. Does anyone know of a target or method of zeroing at 25 yards (basic indoor max range) that will provide a 50 yard near POA/POI when using one of the TALL RDS mounts?
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 10:11:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2018 10:19:56 AM EDT by MunnyShot]
@ 1.5" low of your POA to your POI.

Have you considered not using the Sky Scrapper or a 1.93 mount and just going with a 1/3 or absolute co whiteness. Assuming your using a PVS14 basically just touching the back of your ear lobe to the stock in order to sight through your RDS while wearing your NODs? You'll be saving a lot of weight and expense.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 10:19:44 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
@ 1.5" low of your POA to your POI.

Have you considered not using the Sky Scrapper or a 1.93 mount and just going with a 1/3 or absolute co whiteness and basically just touching the back of your ear lobe to the stock in order to sight through your RDS while wearing your NODs? This works well when using a mono PVS14 and you'll be saving a lot of weight and expense.
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Are you saying to adjust POI at 25 yards to be 1.5" below POA?

Also, as to your suggestion, I have not, but I'll give it a shot. thanks!
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 10:25:31 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Gthirteen:

Are you saying to adjust POI at 25 yards to be 1.5" below POA?

Also, as to your suggestion, I have not, but I'll give it a shot. thanks!
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Correct.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 12:45:06 PM EDT
The problem with going 1/3rds is you can never really get it completely in line with you NOD and it really sucks with follow up shots.

Then take into account, a lot of dudes wear their their earpro helmet mounted or over the head. Having to bring the stock up that high is a guarantee for knocking your ear pro loose, which is bad, even with a can.

Then look at the mechanics of firing a weapon like that. You dont have the proper support behind the weapon which is seriously going to affect your POA and POI. If the weapon is kinda "floating" since you have it so high, you're not going to be anywhere near as accurate as you would be with the weapon properly supported by your shoulder.

Using a riser mitigates all of these issues. Yeah, zeroing is a bit more complicated, but thats just math. Not adjusting everything you've built into muscle memory, holding your rifle half retarded, exposing your ears to hazardous noise, and potentially missing the shot when it counts.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 2:29:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 3:33:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:

With the big tube Aimpoints and Eotechs a 1/3 will work pretty well with a Dual tube setup for follow up shots though it takes some training, but once you got it you got it. I run helmet mounted ear pro and dont have any problems.
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But money says you have a super high cut helmet like a Maritime or Airframe which helps significantly.

I've got many years of shooting experience with Aimpoints and EOTechs under NODs, but nothing compares to having a riser for both. Just ask @TNVC_Augee We both agree completely on the use of risers for passive aiming under NODs so as to not having to reprogram muscle memory. I will agree, training and practical usage is supremely important, but it can be difficult to reprogram "weapon up until dot is acquired, center mass, engage until threat is gone." Which is a lot easier with a riser, even if your zero technique changes from a circle to a ruler.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 4:18:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 4:26:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2018 4:26:16 PM EDT by Doc_Hurley]
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:
Oh dont get me wrong I run an ADM Tall mount I think its 2.04in in height for a T-2 on my primary Night rifle but Nobody makes a tall mount for an eotech or big tube aimpoint......yet. Boy that'll look funky.
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#riserlife

But if they made a tall mount I'd buy that shit quick.

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Link Posted: 8/8/2018 4:33:03 PM EDT
I run a 3M high cut, ARC rails, Howard Leight Impact Sports without having my ear pro pop off. If you have problems with them popping off when you shoot you can mod to disable that feature of switch to the Unity Tactical ear pro rail mount. I've ran the Sky scrapper, risers and also mounting a 1/3 height sight on a KAC RAS II rail with a riser and while it did give me a small height advantage under nods. the weight and losing my irons wasn't worth it. Even with the higher mounts you still have to cant your head in order to use your RDS passively. Throw in body armor and now matter what you do your shooting half retarded anyway. No matter how you look at it you are not going to get a traditional mount and cheek weld under nods or wearing body armor.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 4:50:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2018 5:00:06 PM EDT by Doc_Hurley]
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
I run a 3M high cut, ARC rails, Howard Leight Impact Sports without having my ear pro pop off. If you have problems with them popping off when you shoot you can mod to disable that feature of switch to the Unity Tactical ear pro rail mount. I've ran the Sky scrapper, risers and also mounting a 1/3 height sight on a KAC RAS II rail with a riser and while it did give me a small height advantage under nods. the weight and losing my irons wasn't worth it. Even with the higher mounts you still have to cant your head in order to use your RDS passively. Throw in body armor and now matter what you do your shooting half retarded anyway. No matter how you look at it you are not going to get a traditional mount and cheek weld under nods or wearing body armor.
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So you have a higher cut helmet than the FAST, which is what most of us have, to include the Bump and Carbon. Ear pro pops off with a "proper" cheekweld. And I'll get to the whole cheekweld thing in a second.

1. Weight. I get it, ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain. Been there, done that, carried the aid bag, 3 60mm mortars, and 400 rnds of belted 7.62. Extra weight sucks. But you know what sucks more? Chronic neck pain from having to hold my head all stupid with an extra 6 inches of eyeballs hanging off my face when I shoulder my rifle. Especially on a static range or hunting at night.

2. Irons. Completely irrelevant when shooting at night. I, from practical experience, view them as irrelvant even in daytime. I rotate my batteries, verify zero every now and then, and even in a combat environment, am so totally not worried about "the persistent EMP threat" that most peoples heads would explode.

3. Body armor. This actually improves your passive aiming at night. If you shoulder your rifle properly, aka buttstock on the top edge of the plate, it keeps you from having to "get down" on the gun. I know this style of shooting has become very popular in the past few years. But i have, and always will, live by the mantra "bring the weapon to your face, not your face to the weapon."

4. Cheekweld. God I hate it when someone preaches "cheekweld" to me. With modern red dot optics, it doesn't matter where your face is, it matters where your eyeball is. When I raise my rifle to shoot, my chin barely rests of the buffer tube. The rifle is properly supported by my shoulder, or my plate if wearing armor, and my support hand. I don't have to cock my weapon at a weird angle nor my head. I bring the weapon to me, see reticle, apply appropriate holdover if necessary, and press the bang switch to the rear. My POA and POI are not affected by where my face is, but how I present and support my weapon and my eye's relationship to the reticle.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 5:09:05 PM EDT
@Doc, do you wear ear pro when hunting?
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 5:30:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2018 5:35:29 PM EDT by Doc_Hurley]
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Originally Posted By 35Remington:
@Doc, do you wear ear pro when hunting?
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I absolutely do. Peltors mounted on my lid.

I actively try to protect my hearing, and there's no need to deafen myself shooting armadillos and coyotes.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 10:58:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Doc_Hurley:

So you have a higher cut helmet than the FAST, which is what most of us have, to include the Bump and Carbon. Ear pro pops off with a "proper" cheekweld. And I'll get to the whole cheekweld thing in a second.

1. Weight. I get it, ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain. Been there, done that, carried the aid bag, 3 60mm mortars, and 400 rnds of belted 7.62. Extra weight sucks. But you know what sucks more? Chronic neck pain from having to hold my head all stupid with an extra 6 inches of eyeballs hanging off my face when I shoulder my rifle. Especially on a static range or hunting at night.

2. Irons. Completely irrelevant when shooting at night. I, from practical experience, view them as irrelvant even in daytime. I rotate my batteries, verify zero every now and then, and even in a combat environment, am so totally not worried about "the persistent EMP threat" that most peoples heads would explode.

3. Body armor. This actually improves your passive aiming at night. If you shoulder your rifle properly, aka buttstock on the top edge of the plate, it keeps you from having to "get down" on the gun. I know this style of shooting has become very popular in the past few years. But i have, and always will, live by the mantra "bring the weapon to your face, not your face to the weapon."

4. Cheekweld. God I hate it when someone preaches "cheekweld" to me. With modern red dot optics, it doesn't matter where your face is, it matters where your eyeball is. When I raise my rifle to shoot, my chin barely rests of the buffer tube. The rifle is properly supported by my shoulder, or my plate if wearing armor, and my support hand. I don't have to cock my weapon at a weird angle nor my head. I bring the weapon to me, see reticle, apply appropriate holdover if necessary, and press the bang switch to the rear. My POA and POI are not affected by where my face is, but how I present and support my weapon and my eye's relationship to the reticle.
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Kudos Bro, but it still doesn't make the Sky Scrapper the end all option and everything else inferior.
Link Posted: 8/8/2018 11:06:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:

Kudos Bro, but it still doesn't make the Sky Scrapper the end all option and everything else inferior.
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Didn't say it did.

I'm just trying to point out that it makes life easier for some people, myself included. It's not for everyone, it takes adjustment to adapt. But it does pay off in the long run for passive night shooting. Especially when you're shooting at shit the size of a football without a laser.
Link Posted: 8/9/2018 2:14:45 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Doc_Hurley:

Didn't say it did.

I'm just trying to point out that it makes life easier for some people, myself included. It's not for everyone, it takes adjustment to adapt. But it does pay off in the long run for passive night shooting. Especially when you're shooting at shit the size of a football without a laser.
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No doubt every bit helps. You just have to weigh out the cost, weight, mass and giving up your irons vs the benefit of a slightly higher RDS.
Link Posted: 8/9/2018 10:59:50 AM EDT
I think tall mounts make sense, even without night vision. It's just simple ergonomics, as was already stated. I want to keep my head straight and bring the optic to my eye with the stock still in the right spot on my shoulder.

I'd like to see a chiropractor critique the common shooting positions...
Link Posted: 8/9/2018 11:10:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mikesmith13807:
I think tall mounts make sense, even without night vision. It's just simple ergonomics, as was already stated. I want to keep my head straight and bring the optic to my eye with the stock still in the right spot on my shoulder.

I'd like to see a chiropractor critique the common shooting positions...
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2 of the biggest reasons I don't like the chin weld is there is a Parallax issue with red dot sights which will become more pronounce the further distance you shot if you don't have a repeatable platform and using your chin vs your cheek you loose more contact area which can also result in accuracy issues. If it works for you keep on trucking, but for me that, loosing your irons, weight, etc didn't make it worth it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2018 6:11:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:

2 of the biggest reasons I don't like the chin weld is there is a Parallax issue with red dot sights which will become more pronounce the further distance you shot if you don't have a repeatable platform and using your chin vs your cheek you loose more contact area which can also result in accuracy issues. If it works for you keep on trucking, but for me that, loosing your irons, weight, etc didn't make it worth it.
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True, but that's why I use an EOTech on a raiser :)

I know, like everything, it's a trade off. Nothing is free.
Link Posted: 8/10/2018 7:49:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:

2 of the biggest reasons I don't like the chin weld is there is a Parallax issue with red dot sights which will become more pronounce the further distance you shot if you don't have a repeatable platform and using your chin vs your cheek you loose more contact area which can also result in accuracy issues. If it works for you keep on trucking, but for me that, loosing your irons, weight, etc didn't make it worth it.
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Losing your irons on a night gun is irrelevant, they're useless anyway. But I do find the weight issue a little humorous since I've seen you reccomend the D2 to several folks, and that thing is a heavy bitch. And a riser is only like 4 ounces.
Link Posted: 8/11/2018 5:57:18 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Doc_Hurley:

Losing your irons on a night gun is irrelevant, they're useless anyway. But I do find the weight issue a little humorous since I've seen you reccomend the D2 to several folks, and that thing is a heavy bitch. And a riser is only like 4 ounces.
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I don't set my rigs up for specific day, night, or NV only. I run a 24/7 setup for my go to rifle. The D2 12.5oz is heavier by a whopping 2.4 oz heavier vs the MAWL's 10.1 that you tout so much, but if the 2.4 ozs is too much for you to handle you best hit the gym. I rally think the real humorous thing is how silly your riser looks . IF you didn't need to look so high speed low drag you could move your LAM back a little or ditch the long railed rifle upper for a M4gery and have the weight not affect how long you can hold your rifle up. But hey I get you gotta be "Top Tier" and no you don't have to post your military bio again, but I'm surprised you didn't post a pic of your DD 214 as well. Just an FYI I have and do recommend the MAWl over the D2 if you have no other gear necessary such as thermal that may be beneficial vs wasting money IMHO. I do how ever say a HP LAM is better than either do to it's ability to punch through lighted areas to las/illuminate dark areas that a threat or game animal may be hiding in.

This has been fun trash talking and all, but I'm sure the OP or someone else will be able to read between the lines to make an informative decision on what pros vs cons and alternatives there are before making a purchase.
Link Posted: 8/11/2018 6:07:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SpyHawk:

True, but that's why I use an EOTech on a raiser :)

I know, like everything, it's a trade off. Nothing is free.
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No doubt, use what works for you. I've had the perfect setup dozens of times and a box of unused parts to arrive where I'm at now .
Link Posted: 8/11/2018 8:39:53 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:

I don't set my rigs up for specific day, night, or NV only. I run a 24/7 setup for my go to rifle. The D2 12.5oz is heavier by a whopping 2.4 oz heavier vs the MAWL's 10.1 that you tout so much, but if the 2.4 ozs is too much for you to handle you best hit the gym. I rally think the real humorous thing is how silly your riser looks . IF you didn't need to look so high speed low drag you could move your LAM back a little or ditch the long railed rifle upper for a M4gery and have the weight not affect how long you can hold your rifle up. But hey I get you gotta be "Top Tier" and no you don't have to post your military bio again, but I'm surprised you didn't post a pic of your DD 214 as well. Just an FYI I have and do recommend the MAWl over the D2 if you have no other gear necessary such as thermal that may be beneficial vs wasting money IMHO. I do how ever say a HP LAM is better than either do to it's ability to punch through lighted areas to las/illuminate dark areas that a threat or game animal may be hiding in.

This has been fun trash talking and all, but I'm sure the OP or someone else will be able to read between the lines to make an informative decision on what pros vs cons and alternatives there are before making a purchase.
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None of that made any sense to me. I use an SBR , with a can, and no laser. So no idea what you're talking about.
Link Posted: 8/13/2018 8:08:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:

I do how ever say a HP LAM is better than either do to it's ability to punch through lighted areas to las/illuminate dark areas that a threat or game animal may be hiding in.
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Whut
Link Posted: 8/13/2018 11:12:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2018 11:13:00 AM EDT by Soich]
Try playing with this calculator. http://www.shooterscalculator.com/point-blank-range.php

You can set the height of your reticle in the calculator and see how that effects your sight in, and what your drop is at various distances.

When I switched from a standard height mount on my T1 to a 1.93 one, I noticed very little change in my sight in.
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