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Posted: 9/5/2020 8:23:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Depends on the distance you want to shoot. naturally when you reduce bullet weight corresponding burn rate lower......but as does amount of powder increases. I would say I wouldn't go above 168gr in such a short barrel for terminal performance. so your idea of 110-150 isn't a bad one.
I have loaded for a 16 and 18" .308 and it did yield more performance with 8208xbr and PP2000MR than it did with varget and RL17 |
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Posted: 9/5/2020 8:51:22 PM EDT
[#2]
If you plan on mounting a suppressor on a 12" .308, you better make sure you get one that is rated for a barrel that short.
Look for a can that is over-built, and then over-built some more. A 12" .308 will ruin a lot of lightweight cans if you shoot conventional .308 through it. It is what is is as far as velocity with a barrel that short. Of course, velocities go up when the projectile weight goes down. That's physics. Velocity alone means little. Focus on developing a load that is ACCURATE and RELIABLE in that gun. If expansion is an issue, consider shopping for bullets that are designed to fully expand at the velocities you are producing. You aren't going to find ANY powder that won't generate a ton of flash in a barrel that short. At best, your choices for flash will range somewhere between godawful and atrocious. A large-sized, high-quality, suppressor is the only thing that is going to make a significant reduction in the flash that gun generates. |
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Posted: 9/5/2020 9:13:18 PM EDT
[#3]
At that rate you ought to just go 300blk and save yourself the trouble.
Are there even any common cans on the market rated for 308 that short? Maybe "the load" with red dot can be worked up? |
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Posted: 9/7/2020 2:21:26 PM EDT
[#4]
If you haven't purchased the host have you considered something along the lines of 7.62x40wt, 300 Hamr', 30 HRT, 30 Grendel, ect...... All of which will have comparable velocity with the lighter bullets possibly better, and they will do it with less powder, blast, and heat. Best part is it will still be the ar15 platform.
if dead set on the ar10 how about a 30x47 lapua.....that could be an interesting animal in a AR10 |
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Posted: 9/8/2020 9:40:52 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you plan on mounting a suppressor on a 12" .308, you better make sure you get one that is rated for a barrel that short. Look for a can that is over-built, and then over-built some more. A 12" .308 will ruin a lot of lightweight cans if you shoot conventional .308 through it. It is what is is as far as velocity with a barrel that short. Of course, velocities go up when the projectile weight goes down. That's physics. Velocity alone means little. Focus on developing a load that is ACCURATE and RELIABLE in that gun. If expansion is an issue, consider shopping for bullets that are designed to fully expand at the velocities you are producing. You aren't going to find ANY powder that won't generate a ton of flash in a barrel that short. At best, your choices for flash will range somewhere between godawful and atrocious. A large-sized, high-quality, suppressor is the only thing that is going to make a significant reduction in the flash that gun generates. Don't forget the blast wave. I was at the local indoor range when a dude cut loose with a 13" SCAR 17 with factory muzzle brake... my damned fillings felt like they were coming lose. It was much worse than an AR 5.56mm Pistol, and those suck. OP should stick with 110-130 gr projectiles with a 12" barrel. You may want to consider trying Shooters World Tactical Rifle Smokeless Powder 8 Lb By Lovex. It claims to be flash suppressed and the datasheets show good performance. You'll need every bit of it to get the most out of the 12"... |
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Posted: 9/8/2020 11:17:22 AM EDT
[#6]
Remember "flash-suppressed" powders only mean LESS flash.
And even then, only within the parameters of design. Once the barrel gets too short, you've still got a blinding fireball. Only a somewhat smaller one. |
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Posted: 9/8/2020 1:44:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are there even any common cans on the market rated for 308 that short? SiCo Chimera/Saker and Dead Air Sandman can both handle it. There are others, too. I have a 10.5" AR-308 SBR, but have not had time to hit the range to zero it quite yet due to other commitments... maybe once the action shooting season slows down in the winter. |
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Posted: 9/8/2020 10:09:28 PM EDT
[#8]
I would like to use a 300 SPS from surefire but I need to double check if it’s rated for that barrel length or only for 16in barrels. Realistically I would be shooting 200 and in with this gun.
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Posted: 9/8/2020 10:24:21 PM EDT
[#9]
I built a 12.5 308 sbr and use a saker.
I found a decent load with wc844 and 147fmj. Ill try to dig it up and find it. |
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Posted: 9/9/2020 12:08:56 AM EDT
[#10]
A faster powder will help. While it may show lower velocities in the manual, remember the manuals show velocity for longer barrels, often 24" for .308 Win. That faster powder will reduce the amount of unburnt powder creating the fireball at the muzzle. Look at the published loads and try one of the fastest powders of those published loads and see if it meets your goals.
This is a useful reference for comparing burn rates |
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Posted: 9/9/2020 11:50:44 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: So I’ve been toying with the idea of getting the noveske 12.5 N6 in 308. I know with a shorter barrel I’m losing a good amount of velocity and I’m getting closer to 7.62x39 performance. Pick a different cartridge. 300 BO was already suggested but there are so many others to consider. How did you settle on 308 Winchester for your application, what were your criteria for making that selection? |
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Posted: 9/9/2020 12:03:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pick a different cartridge. 300 BO was already suggested but there are so many others to consider. How did you settle on 308 Winchester for your application, what were your criteria for making that selection? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So I’ve been toying with the idea of getting the noveske 12.5 N6 in 308. I know with a shorter barrel I’m losing a good amount of velocity and I’m getting closer to 7.62x39 performance. Pick a different cartridge. 300 BO was already suggested but there are so many others to consider. How did you settle on 308 Winchester for your application, what were your criteria for making that selection? OP should consider a .300 HAM'R Pistol from Wilson Combat. 130 gr bullets at 2320 fps out of 11-12" barreled AR15... that's within 100 fps of what an SBR 308 will do.  Ken Hackathorn Reviews the .300 HAM'R Pistol |
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Posted: 9/9/2020 7:08:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Could that 300 hammer be formed from 350L cases?
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Posted: 9/9/2020 9:17:13 PM EDT
[#14]
I chose the 308 because I already have some 308’s. A buddy of mine has the 16 N6 and some of his other buddies run the short N6. I do not want to get 300 hammer or 350 legend. I want to keep my guns with what calibers I already have.
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Posted: 9/9/2020 9:35:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I chose the 308 because I already have some 308’s. A buddy of mine has the 16 N6 and some of his other buddies run the short N6. I do not want to get 300 hammer or 350 legend. I want to keep my guns with what calibers I already have. Got any IMR 3031? |
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Posted: 9/9/2020 9:41:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could that 300 hammer be formed from 350L cases? I think it can be formed from 5.56mm brass... |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 7:54:59 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got any IMR 3031? I only have some IMR 4227 from what my dad used for muzzle loading. Other than that I have no powder or primers or bullets with all of this shortage going on. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 10:24:10 AM EDT
[#18]
I built one as light as I could make it for night time hog hunting- I do a lot of walking. Several cans are rated for 10.5" 308. The lightest one I could find at that time was a YHM Phantom-TI- well, the second lightest. I couldn't bring myself to buy the Brevis. With no optic, the can and rifle weigh in just under 7lbs. As a side note, during this project I came to learn how expensive titanium shit is......
As for loads, what is the twist rate on the N6's barrel? My 12.5" barrel is 1:10. I searched and searched and couldn't find a 12.5" barrel with a 1:12 or 1:14 twist for a lighter bullet. I have tried 9 different bullet and bullet weights from 125 Sierra Pro Hunter, Nosler BT/ Nornady SST to 165 SST/ Sierra Game King Hornady GMX, etc., trying to chase velocity while still shooting 1.5" 5-shots groups. All of those were loaded with Varget and Lake City brass (which is a mistake). I bought some 180 grain SSTs, IMR 4064 and Federal brass that I've yet to experiment with. The 125s over Varget were chrony'd at 2600FPS out of the 12.5". Then Federal came out with their $5/ box rebate on deer rounds- ended up making them $10/ box and then I found that they shoot greatt out of the 12.5 and the other 308s I have so I haven't been reloading with as much urgency. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 6:26:12 PM EDT
[#19]
mk319 is are rated at ~2700 in a 13" barrel, pulls are hard to find but can be had. There is also the 130gr ttsx. The BC on the mk319 is pretty crap though, just a hair under .3 You do lose a lot going shorter but a 130gr bullet at 2700fps is still a significant improvement over a 130gr bullet at ~2100fps. Some of the best powders for velocity with the 125/130 class bullets based on 24" data are tac and w748 with imr 3031, blc2, and imr 4895 not being too far behind depending on who's data you are looking at. I've seen a few recommendations for 3031 out of shorter barrels so that might be a decent option despite being about 100fps behind the faster ones based on 24" data.
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Posted: 9/10/2020 6:48:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I only have some IMR 4227 from what my dad used for muzzle loading. Other than that I have no powder or primers or bullets with all of this shortage going on. Please don't try to load any .308 with that pistol powder. There is no excuse for being out of rifle powder. Even now. 41.1 grains TAC with a 168 is an excellent load for .308 TAC has been in stock consistently since the craziness started. https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/ramshot-tac/ And please don't inflate your suppressor shooting that load in a SBR. That load is for rifle-length guns. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 7:53:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I only have some IMR 4227 from what my dad used for muzzle loading. Other than that I have no powder or primers or bullets with all of this shortage going on. 4227 is too fast. I asked about 3031 because I've had good results with it and it seems to still be in stock at a few places, suggesting less demand for it at the moment compared to other powders appropriate for .308. |
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Posted: 9/10/2020 9:15:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please don't try to load any .308 with that pistol powder. There is no excuse for being out of rifle powder. Even now. 41.1 grains TAC with a 168 is an excellent load for .308 TAC has been in stock consistently since the craziness started. https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/ramshot-tac/ And please don't inflate your suppressor shooting that load in a SBR. That load is for rifle-length guns. I wouldn’t try to load with that powder. Stores local to me haven’t had powder. I have a 16in colt 901 and a 24in savage 10, both guns have always favored 168 loads especially A max ones. |
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Posted: 9/11/2020 11:51:20 AM EDT
[#23]
Download a copy of Gordon's Reloading Tool.
Make multiple runs to evaluate the various powder burn rates, bullet weights and barrel lengths. For example, you can tailor the powder charge such that an over-pressure condition does not happen and see the result in terms of muzzle velocity. |
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Posted: 9/11/2020 4:39:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: mk319 is are rated at ~2700 in a 13" barrel, pulls are hard to find but can be had. There is also the 130gr ttsx. The BC on the mk319 is pretty crap though, just a hair under .3 You do lose a lot going shorter but a 130gr bullet at 2700fps is still a significant improvement over a 130gr bullet at ~2100fps. Some of the best powders for velocity with the 125/130 class bullets based on 24" data are tac and w748 with imr 3031, blc2, and imr 4895 not being too far behind depending on who's data you are looking at. I've seen a few recommendations for 3031 out of shorter barrels so that might be a decent option despite being about 100fps behind the faster ones based on 24" data. RMR has new MK319 bullets for under 30 cpr... Also, don't discount speer 125 gr TNT. Very effective bullet. I just got some from wideners for about 18 cpr... |
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Posted: 9/11/2020 6:03:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RMR has new MK319 bullets for under 30 cpr... Yup and until they were listed a couple days ago I hadn't seen any aside from a couple hundred on the EE for the year I'd been looking. AFAIK they are the only retailer that has or has recently had them; there's not exactly a steady supply of the bullets as components. Loaded ammo has been plenty available the past couple years though. |
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Posted: 9/11/2020 7:44:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup and until they were listed a couple days ago I hadn't seen any aside from a couple hundred on the EE for the year I'd been looking. AFAIK they are the only retailer that has or has recently had them; there's not exactly a steady supply of the bullets as components. Loaded ammo has been plenty available the past couple years though. 
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Posted: 9/11/2020 8:20:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Thanks
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Posted: 9/12/2020 7:32:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup and until they were listed a couple days ago I hadn't seen any aside from a couple hundred on the EE for the year I'd been looking. AFAIK they are the only retailer that has or has recently had them; there's not exactly a steady supply of the bullets as components. Loaded ammo has been plenty available the past couple years though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: RMR has new MK319 bullets for under 30 cpr... Yup and until they were listed a couple days ago I hadn't seen any aside from a couple hundred on the EE for the year I'd been looking. AFAIK they are the only retailer that has or has recently had them; there's not exactly a steady supply of the bullets as components. Loaded ammo has been plenty available the past couple years though. There's a place on GB who seems to have a steady supply on auction too. Before RMR listed them I picked up 4k for $280-325/k and they are now consistently getting over $300/k. |
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