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Link Posted: 12/8/2017 8:23:36 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:

The 2 articles you link show the problem in the fact there aren't any large scale group testing of this..............

The "M14" article points out the difference is what 0.13"  ??  
Which is worth the effort?  Is that even statistically a difference?

The "Rifle Shooter"  is also flawed depending on how closely you examine the few groups he has.  What I mean is the first 2 groups of the UN-annealed are smaller in size.  It's the third which is bigger and then throws the average over the annealed.  But couldn't I just as easily say 2/3's of the un-annealed groups were smaller?
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“Worth the effort” is probably the whole point.  For a difference that small, it would not be worth it for me to routinely anneal cases.  But for some people, that might be big enough for them to do the extra work.

I also noticed the issue you saw with the Rifle Shooter article.  Overall, the results were in favor of annealing, but only mildly.

To me, annealing is useful when cases don’t provide the same neck tension they used to (or when forming cases from a different parent case). But some people see it as a hugely important part of their case prep.  Of course some folks also figure clean living and involved case prep will make random brass all perform identically...  
Link Posted: 12/11/2017 6:56:47 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:

I came across that same thread a couple months ago and I decided to give the salt bath annealing a try.  Here is my setup:
https://i.imgur.com/byzyqkv.jpg

I put this together for like $50.  I bought some potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate and mixed my own annealing salt.

So far I like it and think it works very well.  I don't know how many cases you are looking to do, but it actually goes pretty fast.  I can do two cases every 10 seconds, so 100 cases takes just over 8 minutes.  I use my phone to play a 5 second interval timer video from youtube to set the pace.  On the first beep I drop a case into each hole, on the second beep I pull them out and drop them into a bucket of water (that is well away from casting pot).  Lather, rinse, repeat.

As far as safety goes, 900 degree molten salt is NO JOKE, which should go without saying.  I feel pretty safe doing it though with only two small exposed holes to drop the cases through.  I actually drop the cases in and pull them out with my bare hands.  I'm less likely to slip and I like to make sure the case head stay cool (they don't even get warm).  While this system is certainly more labor intensive than a automatic annealing machine, its a LOT less expensive and if anything more consistent.
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Any links to the salt that you used?  I don't want to pay $16 shipping for $8 worth of salt from the creedmore link.
Link Posted: 12/11/2017 11:39:21 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:

Any links to the salt that you used?  I don't want to pay $16 shipping for $8 worth of salt from the creedmore link.
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This is the sodium nitrate:
https://www.amazon.com/Hi-Yield-Nitrate-of-Soda-16-0-0/dp/B0058VAQCI/

This is the potassium nitrate:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Spectracide-1-lb-Stump-Remover-HG-66420-4/202097353

Mix them 60/40 sodium nitrate/potassium nitrate, by weight.

Second link fixed.  AeroE
Link Posted: 12/12/2017 2:24:14 AM EDT
[#4]
Thank you.
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 6:37:53 AM EDT
[#5]
In doing more research on Salt Bath Annealing,  found a post in the Precision Rifle Reloading section here that discussed a lot of the same questions that were asked in this thread, and wanted to post the link for reference.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/just-got-into-annealing--what-step-in-the-process-is-it-/10-5009/

Thank you The Jessman and AZ Sky for taking the time to answer some of my questions, your information is sincerely appreciated!
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 5:27:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Tag for later. I have some WSSM brass that I want to anneal, and any kind of torch method is tricky to say the least with such a short OAL. Brass work hardens, that's a fact. Annealing will extend case life, that might only be one firing, but with the rarity of some brass, it's worth it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 6:55:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 12/20/2017 4:17:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 12/20/2017 10:23:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Dumb...dumb...question...

well 2 dumb questions:

1.  What would happen if the case neck/mouth reached say 800*F or 850*F ?

2.  somebody on page 1 of this thread said some expert recommended against dumping the cases into a pan of water to meep the heat from migrating into the case body or headstamp area.  I guess this expert was advising to air cool.  I don't suppose anybody here has tested air cooled versus water cooled brass for accuracy or muzzle velocity SD's???
Link Posted: 12/20/2017 11:18:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 12/21/2017 9:27:26 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
We are no longer in the "heat neck until it's red and knock over in the water bath" method of the '60's.
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Why not?  As far as I can tell, it looks as though that method would work and not create problems.  Please explain, I love understanding the process...  

Asked another way, is it possible to over heat the neck?  With the case standing in water, you definitely don't need to worry about over heating the case body/head...
Link Posted: 12/21/2017 10:19:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 12/21/2017 3:26:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Actually a torch method is very precise if you use 750 degree Tempilaq.

We are no longer in the "heat neck until it's red and knock over in the water bath" method of the '60's.

It's more of a what method do you personally prefer thing.
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I'm only speaking from experience, not myself, but a fellow 25wssm shooter ruined several cases by over annealing them. I'm not 100% sure how he did it (and memory escapes me since I'm talking several years ago now), but it was so bad the primers were falling out after being fired. I myself have used a water bath (tunafish can) to keep the bottom half of the case from getting annealed and have not had that issue, but it is time consuming. I also may not have annealed them enough because my last range session with that rifle I lost about 30% of my cases due to split necks.
Link Posted: 12/28/2017 5:51:32 PM EDT
[#14]
I finally got my salt bath put together today.  What is up with all of the foam using the two part salt method mentioned above?
Link Posted: 12/29/2017 1:25:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I finally got my salt bath put together today.  What is up with all of the foam using the two part salt method mentioned above?
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I had foam too the first time I melted the salt. I suspect it was boiling off any moisture the salt had absorbed.
Link Posted: 12/30/2017 2:02:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Yeah you get some foam the first time you melt down the salt.  Its a one time thing though, the next time you melt that salt the foam is gone.
Link Posted: 1/3/2018 12:09:05 AM EDT
[#17]
<Off-topic text moved by author to a different post.>
Link Posted: 1/4/2018 3:59:12 PM EDT
[#18]
The brass needs to have enough hardness to grab the bullet after seating.

Dead soft brass will not produce much neck tension to hold the bullet.
Link Posted: 1/7/2018 11:03:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Started making my case holder today.

I bought some 22ga steel at Lowes and some tin snips. I'm gonna use a file and my dremel to clean up the edges.

Here's the diagram I used from the 6.5 Creedmoor forum.



Link Posted: 2/13/2018 11:15:21 AM EDT
[#20]
I purchased the parts and put together a PID controller that can be used to control the temp of the salt bath annealer as well as my lead casting pot.

PID controller

This is the one that I purchased, but it is the wrong type needed to run the SSR that you can get with the "bundle" (PID controller, SSR, Thermocouple) that is offered on the same page, down a little, on the left.  I found a tip on how to convert the RNR version to SNR by desoldering a relay inside the PID and jumping a couple of connections with short pieces of wire.  I ran to Lowes and bought the cheapest wall outlet and cover I could find.  Ended up with a black outlet and white cover (they were out of black covers).  Some scrap wood fashioned into a crude box, some holes cut and wired it up.  Johnny's Reloading Bench on YouTube has a how-to on building one, but I took an minimalist approach building mine.  Very few wires, no fuses/switches/bus bars or removable thermocouple.
Link Posted: 2/16/2018 12:51:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I purchased the parts and put together a PID controller that can be used to control the temp of the salt bath annealer as well as my lead casting pot.

PID controller

This is the one that I purchased, but it is the wrong type needed to run the SSR that you can get with the "bundle" (PID controller, SSR, Thermocouple) that is offered on the same page, down a little, on the left.  I found a tip on how to convert the RNR version to SNR by desoldering a relay inside the PID and jumping a couple of connections with short pieces of wire.  I ran to Lowes and bought the cheapest wall outlet and cover I could find.  Ended up with a black outlet and white cover (they were out of black covers).  Some scrap wood fashioned into a crude box, some holes cut and wired it up.  Johnny's Reloading Bench on YouTube has a how-to on building one, but I took an minimalist approach building mine.  Very few wires, no fuses/switches/bus bars or removable thermocouple.
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Interested in hearing more about how it is working out...
Link Posted: 2/16/2018 1:40:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 2/16/2018 1:41:48 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:

Interested in hearing more about how it is working out...
View Quote
Great!  I have made different inserts for a few different calibers.  Using the PID controller it maintains temps very well.  After seeing results from my induction annealer, I might be turning it back into a lead melting pot.
Link Posted: 2/16/2018 2:23:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Started making my case holder today.

I bought some 22ga steel at Lowes and some tin snips. I'm gonna use a file and my dremel to clean up the edges.

Here's the diagram I used from the 6.5 Creedmoor forum.

http://m2.i.pbase.com/o9/72/325172/1/164723552.fM7lzDFL.Plates.JPG

http://m0.i.pbase.com/o9/72/325172/1/164723550.6zSEguSW.CaseAnnealerInsertAnnotate.jpg
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@Memsu

Some of that hardware appears to be Zinc plated.

The operating temperature of an anealer could likely melt Zinc or cause it to give off toxic Zinc vapor.

You might want to remove that layer of plating before using the anealer.
Link Posted: 2/19/2018 9:18:09 PM EDT
[#25]
This is one of those perfect applications for stainless steels.

Some 300 series would do the trick nicely.
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