User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/26/2023 1:22:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TreddBarton]
Took almost 4 years, but finally snagged a case of commercially manufactured 40/73mm RHEF-7MA training rockets, aka no HE, just chalk. Maximum distance is 800 meters, so gotta go to my buddy's place since our range only goes out to 300 meters and I want to stretch these babies out to 600+ yards. Should be receiving them in the next 4 weeks. ATF approved the transfer in 12 days which is pretty good for a paper filed Form 3 from FFL 10 to FFL 10.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2023 1:34:37 PM EDT
[#1]
So is each round still registered?
So if a common person wants to get this for a reactivated RPG-7, it's $200 a rocket? congrats , curious. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2023 1:51:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes….curiosity has been thoroughly piqued …
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2023 1:52:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: So is each round still registered? So if a common person wants to get this for a reactivated RPG-7, it's $200 a rocket? congrats , curious. Yes, each rocket is a DD and would require a $200 transfer fee for civilians. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2023 7:20:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Nice, what launcher are you going to use?
|
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 5/27/2023 2:44:46 PM EDT
[#5]
What makes these a DD? They don't fit the legal definition of one. I guess they could be considered explosive material, but they aren't DDs
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2023 1:34:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Nice, what launcher are you going to use? Picked up a Airtronic PSRL a few weeks ago. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2023 1:41:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SGT-Fish: What makes these a DD? They don't fit the legal definition of one. I guess they could be considered explosive material, but they aren't DDs Destructive device. (a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding paragraphs of this definition; (b) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (c) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any Destructive device described in paragraph (a) or (b) of this section and from which a Destructive device may be readily assembled. The term shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signalling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10, United States Code; or any other device which the Director finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2023 2:42:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By TreddBarton: Originally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Nice, what launcher are you going to use? Picked up a Airtronic PSRL a few weeks ago. Nice. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2023 2:45:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mechanical]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TreddBarton: Destructive device. (a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding paragraphs of this definition; (b) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (c) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any Destructive device described in paragraph (a) or (b) of this section and from which a Destructive device may be readily assembled. The term shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signalling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10, United States Code; or any other device which the Director finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TreddBarton: Destructive device. (a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding paragraphs of this definition; (b) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Director finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (c) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any Destructive device described in paragraph (a) or (b) of this section and from which a Destructive device may be readily assembled. The term shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signalling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10, United States Code; or any other device which the Director finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes. I know you've got no reason to take my word over whoever told you those are DD's, but unless those rockets have more than just chalk, they're not DD's. That's a bad read that's been going around forever and the letter of the law does not support it. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 (4) The term “destructive device” means— (A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas— (i) bomb, (ii) grenade, (iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (v) mine, or (vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses; (B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 7684(2), 7685, or 7686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. Look how 18 USC § 921 (4) is structured. "(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces," is a subsection of " (A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—" Unless it's an explosive, incendiary, or poison gas device, none of sections (i) through (vi) apply. eta: This is how that section reads, when you break it down: The term “destructive device” means any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb, The term “destructive device” means any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas grenade, The term “destructive device” means any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, The term “destructive device” means any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, The term “destructive device” means any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas mine, or The term “destructive device” means any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses; Unless it's an explosive, incendiary, or poison gas rocket, >4oz of propellant does not make it a DD. |
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 5/30/2023 6:46:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Exactly! I've been correcting people on this for a decade. You have to read the whole sentence, not just the part about rocket propellant. It only applies to explosive, incendiary, and poison gas rockets.
Tredd, you could save yourself a bit of hassle with this |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/30/2023 8:29:45 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SGT-Fish: Exactly! I've been correcting people on this for a decade. You have to read the whole sentence, not just the part about rocket propellant. It only applies to explosive, incendiary, and poison gas rockets. Tredd, you could save yourself a bit of hassle with this Yes, I know that argument, but when the distributor will only sell them to you on a Form 3 as a DD, you say, "Okay". |
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 5/30/2023 8:39:43 AM EDT
[#12]
I mean, it's not really an argument, it's just a fact. And is a good chance to straighten out the ATF and Airtronic.
I get what you are saying about complying with distributorsto make the deal happen. But you incorrectly cited the law when I brought it up. So it didn't seem like you understood. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/31/2023 9:52:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Here’s what my lawyer got back from the ATF, I still don’t trust the ATF to change their mind but figured I’d share what I got from them . I also think the RPG-7 round contain explosive propellant so they couldn’t sell it to non-FEL regardless of NFA status.
  
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/31/2023 2:36:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryDoes airtronic sell these direct ? They are domestic so no LL on them, right? |
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 5/31/2023 3:07:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7insert: Does airtronic sell these direct ? They are domestic so no LL on them, right? They did for a short time before the Ukraine War got going hard. Considering they have been Ukraine's main supplier of RPG launchers for a while, I'm guessing that they don't have many extras to sell |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/15/2023 12:16:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Any plans to sell this to individuals? Would be cool to register one of the rpg2’s that are floating around
|
|
|
|
OR, USA
|
Posted: 7/15/2023 4:41:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SGT-Fish: What makes these a DD? They don't fit the legal definition of one. I guess they could be considered explosive material, but they aren't DDs I mean 40mm cheeto rounds don't either, but the atf classified those as DDs also. Don't try to put logic to their rules. |
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 7/15/2023 4:49:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By homemadeammo42: I mean 40mm cheeto rounds don't either, but the atf classified those as DDs also. Don't try to put logic to their rules. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By homemadeammo42: Originally Posted By SGT-Fish: What makes these a DD? They don't fit the legal definition of one. I guess they could be considered explosive material, but they aren't DDs I mean 40mm cheeto rounds don't either, but the atf classified those as DDs also. Don't try to put logic to their rules. M781 rounds aren't DD, they are explosive material. All 40mm ammo is. ATF has ruled 40mm is not "small arms ammunition" so the 27 CFR 555 exemption does not apply and therefore all the explosives storage and transport requirements apply. The good news is there is an easy workaround, M781 rounds are simply sold and have to be stored and transported without the .38 blank inserted. |
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 7/15/2023 5:10:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By homemadeammo42: I mean 40mm cheeto rounds don't either, but the atf classified those as DDs also. Don't try to put logic to their rules. That isn't true. See the post above this one for the correct answer |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/18/2023 3:02:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 02NBMFormula: Any plans to sell this to individuals? Would be cool to register one of the rpg2’s that are floating around 7 warheads will not fit an RPG-2 launcher. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/18/2023 9:31:59 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 02NBMFormula: Any plans to sell this to individuals? Would be cool to register one of the rpg2’s that are floating around You can print and load your own RPG-2 chalk ammunition , it’s actually cost effective and you can rapidly change the primer position to be used in an RPG-7 too if you want cheaper ammunition. The main issue with RPG-7 is the unknown amount of smokeless style propellant in the booster charge and unknown fuel in the sustainer motor. Black powder is more forgiving for RPG-2 style ammo but without technical data the 7 style ammunition is very hard to replicate  
|
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 7/18/2023 9:52:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Wow very cool
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2023 4:49:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TreddBarton]
[#23]
The ATF took their time, but finally approved our purchase of an AirTronic Precision Shoulder-fired Rocket Launcher (PSRL). Oddly enough the ATF was pretty quick on approving the sale of a case of chalk rockets, but the launcher was held up for a few months.
Now if they would just approve my next purchase, I'll be one happy guy. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2023 10:34:13 PM EDT
[#24]
I sure hope a video is soon to come.
|
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 8/3/2023 10:42:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TreddBarton: The ATF took their time, but finally approved our purchase of an AirTronic Precision Shoulder-fired Rocket Launcher (PSRL). Oddly enough the ATF was pretty quick on approving the sale of a case of chalk rockets, but the launcher was held up for a few months. Now if they would just approve my next purchase, I'll be one happy guy. https://i.postimg.cc/VvP3Skyw/PSRL-Feature-e1543255553574.jpg You're a 10/02 so I'm curious what ATF's problem was? Did the form 3 just inexplicably take forever or did they actually question you about it? If Airtonic would sell them there's nothing stopping them from selling to individuals. If they gave you a hard time I'm really curious what they'd do to just the average collector who wanted one. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 12:50:06 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sgthatred: I sure hope a video is soon to come. This |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 10:48:03 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TreddBarton: The ATF took their time, but finally approved our purchase of an AirTronic Precision Shoulder-fired Rocket Launcher (PSRL). Oddly enough the ATF was pretty quick on approving the sale of a case of chalk rockets, but the launcher was held up for a few months. Now if they would just approve my next purchase, I'll be one happy guy. https://i.postimg.cc/VvP3Skyw/PSRL-Feature-e1543255553574.jpg Would the company who sold the chalk rockets sell to civis or would they only deal with licensed individuals? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2023 10:49:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TreddBarton]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mak0: You're a 10/02 so I'm curious what ATF's problem was? Did the form 3 just inexplicably take forever or did they actually question you about it? If Airtonic would sell them there's nothing stopping them from selling to individuals. If they gave you a hard time I'm really curious what they'd do to just the average collector who wanted one. First eForm 3 was kicked back due to them selecting our FFL 07 instead of our FFL 10. They refiled and what normally takes 7 to 14 days to get a eForm 3 approved took 76 days to get approved, which is utter bullshit. No questions from ATF, they just sat on it. What's funny is the Bulgaria Training Rockets got approved in 12 days, you would think this would be the one to set on, not the launcher. Another Form 3 was filed 2 days ago for the really cool shit, but I don't see that getting approved in 12 days, but we will see. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/6/2023 2:30:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: You can print and load your own RPG-2 chalk ammunition , it’s actually cost effective and you can rapidly change the primer position to be used in an RPG-7 too if you want cheaper ammunition. The main issue with RPG-7 is the unknown amount of smokeless style propellant in the booster charge and unknown fuel in the sustainer motor. Black powder is more forgiving for RPG-2 style ammo but without technical data the 7 style ammunition is very hard to replicate https://i.imgur.com/QQdvgEI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EnnyKeR.jpg got any videos? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/6/2023 9:42:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 02NBMFormula: got any videos? Don’t want to hijack this thread so I won’t post them here but I did separate thread on test firing them last year |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/7/2023 10:01:39 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: You can print and load your own RPG-2 chalk ammunition , it’s actually cost effective and you can rapidly change the primer position to be used in an RPG-7 too if you want cheaper ammunition. The main issue with RPG-7 is the unknown amount of smokeless style propellant in the booster charge and unknown fuel in the sustainer motor. Black powder is more forgiving for RPG-2 style ammo but without technical data the 7 style ammunition is very hard to replicate https://i.imgur.com/QQdvgEI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EnnyKeR.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Originally Posted By 02NBMFormula: Any plans to sell this to individuals? Would be cool to register one of the rpg2’s that are floating around You can print and load your own RPG-2 chalk ammunition , it’s actually cost effective and you can rapidly change the primer position to be used in an RPG-7 too if you want cheaper ammunition. The main issue with RPG-7 is the unknown amount of smokeless style propellant in the booster charge and unknown fuel in the sustainer motor. Black powder is more forgiving for RPG-2 style ammo but without technical data the 7 style ammunition is very hard to replicate https://i.imgur.com/QQdvgEI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EnnyKeR.jpg Airtronics has an expelling charge test video with a somewhat load data. Kind of gives you an idea of how much propellant the booster uses/can use.   Airtronic USA rpg-7 variable expelling charge test |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/7/2023 10:55:17 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Here’s what my lawyer got back from the ATF, I still don’t trust the ATF to change their mind but figured I’d share what I got from them . I also think the RPG-7 round contain explosive propellant so they couldn’t sell it to non-FEL regardless of NFA status. https://i.imgur.com/19yNAuP.jpg https://i.imgur.com/GfUIUrq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/SVp95q3.jpg Just wanted to follow up this ATF letter with an NFA expert witness opinion on the 4 ounce rule. I’m posting it here since it’s somewhat relevant  
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/7/2023 9:50:05 AM EDT
[#33]
Took over 3 years of paperwork and waiting, but it finally arrived: One case of six imported Bulgarian RPG-7 40mm Round RHEF-7MA Inert rockets. These are 800 meter RPG-7 training rockets with a small marking charge. The Precision Shoulder-fired Rocket Launcher-1 (PSRL-1) also arrived, but haven't opened the box yet.
   |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
