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Posted: 1/19/2022 12:28:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Excited!
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Posted: 1/19/2022 2:26:25 PM EDT
[#2]
I'm in. Though I hope it is offered in other calibers as I'm not sure I want pay the premium for the wunderwaffen round.
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Posted: 1/20/2022 8:34:15 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm in. Though I hope it is offered in other calibers as I'm not sure I want pay the premium for the wunderwaffen round. Agreed. I think the 277 will be a great round, but I am worried about the lack of manufacturers who will produce it leading to less competition and thus higher price per round. |
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Posted: 1/20/2022 9:27:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed. I think the 277 will be a great round, but I am worried about the lack of manufacturers who will produce it leading to less competition and thus higher price per round. To take it one step further, will third parties even be able to produce the 277 round without buying the proprietary case from TrueVelocity? Based on the pics I've seen, it looks like making a brass case would be rather difficult. |
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Posted: 1/20/2022 10:21:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Good news but I’m like you guys. Make it in .308/6.5…
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Posted: 1/20/2022 1:24:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Is this going to be a Beretta Pup?
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Posted: 1/20/2022 1:41:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this going to be a Beretta Pup? I thought Lonestar Future Weapons had purchased the design from Beretta and would be the manufacturer. Maybe that was only for the military rifle and Beretta has the rights to sell into the civilian market? |
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Posted: 1/20/2022 4:04:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Sexy!
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Posted: 1/20/2022 5:02:21 PM EDT
[#9]
I know 6.8 SPC is currently out of favor but if they are going to offer multiple calibers I would like to se one that. What other cartridges would fit well in this platform?
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Posted: 1/20/2022 9:42:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Ok damnit im in!
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Posted: 1/21/2022 4:52:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know 6.8 SPC is currently out of favor but if they are going to offer multiple calibers I would like to se one that. What other cartridges would fit well in this platform? I can't imagine the RM277 will do anything for SPC. It's a larger frame bullpup, and I'd rather see it keep with larger rounds like .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor, more commonplace options over the original caliber. It's a market that could still use some good competition. SPC would be a more interesting option for smaller frame pups, and even then, I doubt any conversions would be worth the expense for manufacturers. Hell, even with the higher interest for 6.5 Grendel (Relative to SPC) and .300 Blackout, we still don't have a ton of options in the bullpup market. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 8:59:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Very nice!
It is a General Dynamics design. They divested their small arms division and the polymer ammo supplier true velocity bought them. Beretta announced it will Mass produce them, which makes sense considering they probably have manufacturing space after loosing their military sole source pistol contract. Some things of note from the NGSW requirements (includes ammo). 1. 600 yard effective range 2. Utilizes 6.8 bullet at 80k psi, 60k ish is brass burst pressure 3. 6.8 cartrige is designed to fully burn powder in a 13" barrel 4. Ammunition is 25% lighter than comparable cartriges 5. Multi caliber 6. 8000 round barrel life with suppressor I bet 308 and 6.5 creed would be no brainer cartriges. Fun fact True Velocity already sells polymer 308 rounds right now that work in standard 308 chambers. I think my MDRx's days in my safe are numbered. Especially if they win NGSW and we get crazy after market support. https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ An aside, vortex won the LVPO/optics part of the competition last week too. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 9:15:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6. 8000 round barrel life with suppressor I think my MDRx's days in my safe are numbered. Especially if they win NGSW and we get crazy after market support. https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ An aside, vortex won the LVPO/optics part of the competition last week too. Great...a Chinese produced or designed optic. Beyond that, let's not put the cart before the horse and get super excited. I still give it only about 25% chance that this (the NGSW) sees adoption by anyone, especially how the economy is going. I'm sure Beretta will try to cash in on sales potential, but it really needs to be in calibers that are affordable or it will be nothing more than a safe queen or wall hanger. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 11:24:05 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great...a Chinese produced or designed optic. Beyond that, let's not put the cart before the horse and get super excited. I still give it only about 25% chance that this (the NGSW) sees adoption by anyone, especially how the economy is going. I'm sure Beretta will try to cash in on sales potential, but it really needs to be in calibers that are affordable or it will be nothing more than a safe queen or wall hanger. Vortex also makes Japanese optics.  |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:52:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't imagine the RM277 will do anything for SPC. It's a larger frame bullpup, and I'd rather see it keep with larger rounds like .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor, more commonplace options over the original caliber. It's a market that could still use some good competition. SPC would be a more interesting option for smaller frame pups, and even then, I doubt any conversions would be worth the expense for manufacturers. Hell, even with the higher interest for 6.5 Grendel (Relative to SPC) and .300 Blackout, we still don't have a ton of options in the bullpup market. Thanks, I wondered if it was basically a large frame only. I probably don’t need another 7.62 but I would take a look at it. I like Beretta stuff. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 9:47:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great...a Chinese produced or designed optic. Beyond that, let's not put the cart before the horse and get super excited. I still give it only about 25% chance that this (the NGSW) sees adoption by anyone, especially how the economy is going. I'm sure Beretta will try to cash in on sales potential, but it really needs to be in calibers that are affordable or it will be nothing more than a safe queen or wall hanger. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 6. 8000 round barrel life with suppressor I think my MDRx's days in my safe are numbered. Especially if they win NGSW and we get crazy after market support. https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ An aside, vortex won the LVPO/optics part of the competition last week too. Great...a Chinese produced or designed optic. Beyond that, let's not put the cart before the horse and get super excited. I still give it only about 25% chance that this (the NGSW) sees adoption by anyone, especially how the economy is going. I'm sure Beretta will try to cash in on sales potential, but it really needs to be in calibers that are affordable or it will be nothing more than a safe queen or wall hanger. Vortex is NOT a Chinese company. They are American. They have a diverse product portfolio with products made in China, Philippines, Japan, and some USA. Basically different product tiers at different price points. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 7:40:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vortex is NOT a Chinese company. They are American. They have a diverse product portfolio with products made in China, Philippines, Japan, and some USA. Basically different product tiers at different price points. Did you read and comprehend what I wrote or just kneejerk a response? I never claimed they were a Communist Chinese company, just that they were hawking those products. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 9:28:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very nice! It is a General Dynamics design. They divested their small arms division and the polymer ammo supplier true velocity bought them. Beretta announced it will Mass produce them, which makes sense considering they probably have manufacturing space after loosing their military sole source pistol contract. Some things of note from the NGSW requirements (includes ammo). 1. 600 yard effective range 2. Utilizes 6.8 bullet at 80k psi, 60k ish is brass burst pressure 3. 6.8 cartridge's is designed to fully burn powder in a 13" barrel 4. Ammunition is 25% lighter than comparable cartridge's 5. Multi caliber 6. 8000 round barrel life with suppressor I bet 308 and 6.5 creed would be no brainer cartridge's. Fun fact True Velocity already sells polymer 308 rounds right now that work in standard 308 chambers. I think my MDRx's days in my safe are numbered. Especially if they win NGSW and we get crazy after market support. https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ An aside, vortex won the LVPO/optics part of the competition last week too. I'm pretty sure the 80k psi was for the 277 Sig Fury round. That's how they can do the (3000FPS) velocity they do with their 140gr 6.8 (277 sig fury) round with a 16inch barrel. Which obviously the bullpup can achieve the same velocity with its 6.8TVC (3000fps w/ 135gr bullet) at lower psi (60k-65k) because of the longer barrel (20-24 inch?). So..both rounds are doing 2700Ft Lbs. of energy they just do it differently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoBOuv6qJNU  General Dynamics US Army Prototype M4 replacement NGSW 6.8mm Cappy did a vid on it in June |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 11:00:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very nice! It is a General Dynamics design. They divested their small arms division and the polymer ammo supplier true velocity bought them. Beretta announced it will Mass produce them, which makes sense considering they probably have manufacturing space after loosing their military sole source pistol contract. Some things of note from the NGSW requirements (includes ammo). 1. 600 yard effective range 2. Utilizes 6.8 bullet at 80k psi, 60k ish is brass burst pressure 3. 6.8 cartrige is designed to fully burn powder in a 13" barrel 4. Ammunition is 25% lighter than comparable cartriges 5. Multi caliber 6. 8000 round barrel life with suppressor I bet 308 and 6.5 creed would be no brainer cartriges. Fun fact True Velocity already sells polymer 308 rounds right now that work in standard 308 chambers. I think my MDRx's days in my safe are numbered. Especially if they win NGSW and we get crazy after market support. https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ An aside, vortex won the LVPO/optics part of the competition last week too.  Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) - Army's M4 Carbine and M249 Replacement |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 12:23:35 AM EDT
[#20]
I'd be very interested in getting one, do need to flesh out my collection with a larger caliber. It looks really good with an Elcan too.
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Posted: 1/23/2022 7:46:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To take it one step further, will third parties even be able to produce the 277 round without buying the proprietary case from TrueVelocity? Based on the pics I've seen, it looks like making a brass case would be rather difficult. Winchester will be the contracted M277 ammo supplier. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 9:30:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: To take it one step further, will third parties even be able to produce the 277 round without buying the proprietary case from TrueVelocity? Based on the pics I've seen, it looks like making a brass case would be rather difficult. Winchester will be the contracted M277 ammo supplier. Yeah, with the optic and ammo production now contracted, all that's left is to pick the winning design. Which one, Sig, or Beretta, takes the prize, is anybody's guess. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 1:35:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, with the optic and ammo production now contracted, all that's left is to pick the winning design. Which one, Sig, or Beretta, takes the prize, is anybody's guess. I thought there were 3 contenders. But frankly, I don't see the US going to a BP rifle config. Too radical a move. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 2:38:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought there were 3 contenders. But frankly, I don't see the US going to a BP rifle config. Too radical a move. The Textron entry was withdrawn from consideration after the rifle had significant issue during testing. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 3:53:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Textron entry was withdrawn from consideration after the rifle had significant issue during testing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I thought there were 3 contenders. But frankly, I don't see the US going to a BP rifle config. Too radical a move. The Textron entry was withdrawn from consideration after the rifle had significant issue during testing. Textron wasn’t bullpup. This is General Dynamics entry which didn’t drop out. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 4:11:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Textron wasn’t bullpup. This is General Dynamics entry which didn’t drop out. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought there were 3 contenders. But frankly, I don't see the US going to a BP rifle config. Too radical a move. The Textron entry was withdrawn from consideration after the rifle had significant issue during testing. Textron wasn’t bullpup. This is General Dynamics entry which didn’t drop out. Correct. He was referring to the previous poster who mentioned that he thought there were three. There were three. Textron pulled out. Now there are two. More pics and stuff for those interested: https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ And also another post: https://theloadoutblog.com/2022/01/22/winning-beretta-true-velocity-collaborate-to-bring-a-commercially-available-rm277/ |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 5:16:58 PM EDT
[#27]
So this is a different cartridge than the 277 Fury correct?
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Posted: 1/23/2022 5:29:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So this is a different cartridge than the 277 Fury correct? Yes, that's the Sig round for the Spear. It's a hybrid steel and brass case last I checked. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 6:48:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, that's the Sig round for the Spear. It's a hybrid steel and brass case last I checked. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So this is a different cartridge than the 277 Fury correct? Yes, that's the Sig round for the Spear. It's a hybrid steel and brass case last I checked. I know the round construction is different I just don't know if the chamber is the same and they could both be fired in both guns. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 7:05:43 PM EDT
[#30]
Different chambers.
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Posted: 1/23/2022 7:19:39 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm hyped to see high-pressure capable ammo entering the market even if it's not loaded to capacity. It's something handloaders and hobbyists can't do. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 8:37:03 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, with the optic and ammo production now contracted, all that's left is to pick the winning design. Which one, Sig, or Beretta, takes the prize, is anybody's guess. Without looking at the tenders and seeing aside my anti-Sig bias and just looking at history, my guess is that Beretta/TrueVelocity will win. Sig won the last firearms competition and has the contract for the sidearm, FN has the SAW/LMG contracts, which leaves Beretta in the cold. Thus, just looking at what's been contracted, my guess is Beretta/TrueVelocity. Sig has significant baggage when it comes to bringing a new rifle to market, especially in a non-traditional caliber, which I think will also be a factor. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 8:56:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm hyped to see high-pressure capable ammo entering the market even if it's not loaded to capacity. It's something handloaders and hobbyists can't do. That will just be the Sig fury. Currently only 2 guns on the commercial market is built to handle it and..you guessed it...both are sig guns. So..Handloader and hobbyists will be able to play with that round soon (as it is being sold I just dont know where)...I personally wont be..80k psi is ...well I don't wanna be around if something goes wrong.. I am curious if someone will make the polymer 6.8 TVC ammo reloadable..60+k Psi is a bit more manageable..Dunno what youd have to do to make it reloadable at its current phase.. But I'm sure someone will find a way.. |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 11:39:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Just to get some clarification, they will choose the ammo that goes with the winning gun, right? RM277 wins, the 6.8TVC is chosen, the Spear wins, the .277 fury is chosen?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 12:29:31 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to get some clarification, they will choose the ammo that goes with the winning gun, right? RM277 wins, the 6.8TVC is chosen, the Spear wins, the .277 fury is chosen? Correct. Gun and ammo are a package |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 2:30:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. He was referring to the previous poster who mentioned that he thought there were three. There were three. Textron pulled out. Now there are two. More pics and stuff for those interested: https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ And also another post: https://theloadoutblog.com/2022/01/22/winning-beretta-true-velocity-collaborate-to-bring-a-commercially-available-rm277/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought there were 3 contenders. But frankly, I don't see the US going to a BP rifle config. Too radical a move. The Textron entry was withdrawn from consideration after the rifle had significant issue during testing. Textron wasn’t bullpup. This is General Dynamics entry which didn’t drop out. Correct. He was referring to the previous poster who mentioned that he thought there were three. There were three. Textron pulled out. Now there are two. More pics and stuff for those interested: https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-ngsw/ And also another post: https://theloadoutblog.com/2022/01/22/winning-beretta-true-velocity-collaborate-to-bring-a-commercially-available-rm277/ Correct. I was unaware that Textron was out. I'm still not sure the .mil will embrace a BP, especially if it would still want to be able to field C-More style drum mags for SAW role utility, but they seem to be redefining operating roles at the squad level in this context, so perhaps. ETA, putting all the small arms chips in the SIG basket might not be the best strategy. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 2:37:43 AM EDT
[#37]
The True Velocity cartridge can be used in existing guns with a barrel change. That’s why the cartridge is a winner.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 11:55:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. I was unaware that Textron was out. I'm still not sure the .mil will embrace a BP, especially if it would still want to be able to field C-More style drum mags for SAW role utility, but they seem to be redefining operating roles at the squad level in this context, so perhaps. ETA, putting all the small arms chips in the SIG basket might not be the best strategy. Are the Marines issuing drums for the IAR? |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 12:13:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Without looking at the tenders and seeing aside my anti-Sig bias and just looking at history, my guess is that Beretta/TrueVelocity will win. Sig won the last firearms competition and has the contract for the sidearm, FN has the SAW/LMG contracts, which leaves Beretta in the cold. Thus, just looking at what's been contracted, my guess is Beretta/TrueVelocity. Sig has significant baggage when it comes to bringing a new rifle to market, especially in a non-traditional caliber, which I think will also be a factor. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 12:32:54 PM EDT
[#40]
That thing looks a lot like an M17S.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 2:00:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Is it just because of the standard pistol grip?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 2:21:09 PM EDT
[#42]
I would like to see how this rifle operates and a cutaway of the suppressor.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:03:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's actually brilliant analysis - I hadn't thought of all this but it does make sense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Without looking at the tenders and seeing aside my anti-Sig bias and just looking at history, my guess is that Beretta/TrueVelocity will win. Sig won the last firearms competition and has the contract for the sidearm, FN has the SAW/LMG contracts, which leaves Beretta in the cold. Thus, just looking at what's been contracted, my guess is Beretta/TrueVelocity. Sig has significant baggage when it comes to bringing a new rifle to market, especially in a non-traditional caliber, which I think will also be a factor. I'm a Sig fan, but even I agree with your assessment. The DoD likes to distribute contracts around the military industrial base for a number of reasons. But also, like Ryan said above, the fact that the TV 68 is much more readily and safely adopted to other weapons is a huge bonus. Especially for aircraft mounted weapons where weight and range are critical. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:40:07 PM EDT
[#44]
I totally forgot about aircraft ammuntion..
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:54:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I totally forgot about aircraft ammuntion.. On aircraft it means you can carry 30% more ammunition. |
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Posted: 1/25/2022 1:45:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Without looking at the tenders and seeing aside my anti-Sig bias and just looking at history, my guess is that Beretta/TrueVelocity will win. Sig won the last firearms competition and has the contract for the sidearm, FN has the SAW/LMG contracts, which leaves Beretta in the cold. Thus, just looking at what's been contracted, my guess is Beretta/TrueVelocity. Sig has significant baggage when it comes to bringing a new rifle to market, especially in a non-traditional caliber, which I think will also be a factor. (For the record, I also hold disdain against Boeing and Lockheed in their respective "markets" for the same reasons). |
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Posted: 1/25/2022 1:57:29 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it would make sense for a diversified industrial base to pick the Beretta, but have an extremely unkind opinion about the apparent unholy union/monopolistic practices of SIG in the acquisition world, and think they'll win. (For the record, I also hold disdain against Boeing and Lockheed in their respective "markets" for the same reasons). Looking at it with politics involved, and you may be correct. If Beretta doesn't win, I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that they will fight the decision tooth and nail. Assuming the Army actually awards a contract and goes ahead with replacing the M-4, this is likely the last major small arms contract for 20+ years. Yes, there will be SAW/LMG/Specialty weapons acquired, but other than precision rifles, none of those carry into the civilian market. Without that contract, Beretta is pretty much a runner up handgun company with a few shotguns for color. By "runner up" I'm not talking about their quality, just that they have no major contracts. As for Boeing and Lockheed...and Northrup, I think they should all be broken up. We have two major airframe manufacturers with Northrop offering some boutique designs, when at one point we had a dozen or more. Competition is good...look how fast they brought new designs on-line when there weren't computers to help and they had to draw the plans and use slide rules? Today to go from concept to production is 15-20 years. Sad. |
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Posted: 1/25/2022 2:11:51 PM EDT
[#48]
The Sig should be a failure compared to the Beretta due to the ability of the latter to use it’s ammunition in existing guns.
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Posted: 1/25/2022 5:24:27 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. Gun and ammo are a package Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just to get some clarification, they will choose the ammo that goes with the winning gun, right? RM277 wins, the 6.8TVC is chosen, the Spear wins, the .277 fury is chosen? Correct. Gun and ammo are a package |
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Posted: 1/25/2022 5:54:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But if Winchester already won the contract to produce the ammo, does that mean they're on the hook for one or the other cartridge and/or means of manufacturing it? Either the polymer case or the bi-metal one? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just to get some clarification, they will choose the ammo that goes with the winning gun, right? RM277 wins, the 6.8TVC is chosen, the Spear wins, the .277 fury is chosen? Correct. Gun and ammo are a package Yes...? Sig is already making their 277 Sig fury.. But outside of that..idk.. |
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