Absolutely no machining experience.  Never used a mill in my life.

Having said that...is a Jet 15 (1979 manufacture/Taiwan) capable enough to complete ARs?  I'm not interested in using a drill press or a router, so it looks like a used mill is in my future.



...and when it comes to jig plates, I have a question.  Just looking at setups online, it looks like the lower is sandwiched between two side plates, and then a third plate of some sort (depending on manufacturer) is screwed on top.

This whole assembly goes into the vise on the table...Wouldn't a fourth plate be required on the bottom of the jig to keep from deforming the jig when the vise is tightened?


Who makes the best jigs?

I apologize in advance if this has been exhaustively covered.  If it has, just a link would be fine.

Never mind....

Go on youtube and watch some of the videos.  A lathe and a mill do different things.  With a lathe the part spins (and tools are used to face chamfer cut threads and cut and turn down profiles ) with a mill the cutting tool spins.   a Mill is a lot like a drill press.  HAAS makes CNC Lathes and Mills.  It's more complex than you might think.  There is a big difference between making a lower from an 80%  and making one from a block of aluminum.  It would be nice to  have the written CNC programs to mill a lower from a casting but even a casting that is machined into a 80 % lower puts you closer than a plain block of aluminum.  You should be able to roughly finish an 80% with a good drill press if you take your time but a mill would be a way better tool because you can set the depth of cut and make Z and X moves.  You can buy a vice that makes similar moves for a drill press. Link to 6 In. Cross Slide Vise

routers are a wood working tool not really a metal working tool.

It's hardly practical to do since you could buy more completed rifles than you can carry for less than the cost of a good Mill and Lathe, and then add the parts cost the materials cost. And then of course there is the lack of available ammo / components.

Thanks for all that.  I'm more than mechanically capable.  I've just never machined anything.  I've watched more than a few YT videos, but many are done by the manufacturer of the jigs themselves, and don't seem to address my "third plate" question.

It's going to be a mill.  If I can get away with dropping $800 on a used Jet15, I'd rather do that than buy a used Bridgeport at more than twice that.  Some of the newish Chinese stuff...bad?  Good?  The Jet has a round column (like a drill press), the newer Asian stuff has rectangular.

Should I stay away from older mills?  I believe the Jet has an R8 spindle, which is more industry standard.

I'm not looking to be a machinist.  Maybe I'm in the wrong forum.

Do not buy a round column mill.  The table on those does not raise (no knee) so you have to move the head.  When you do that you lose your zero so have to re-indicate the part.  Pain in the butt!

My first mill was a bench mill Lathemaster (RongFu type) that had a square column with dovetails that the head raised and lowered on.  It was fairly accurate and was used to complete several 0% lowers.  However, I use my machines for more than that and eventually found it lacking in capability.  Ended up selling it and buying a 10x54 Precision Mathews knee mill.  I've never regretted the purchase.

I'd recommend looking for a good used knee mill or buying one of the square column bench mills.  You're still looking at spending a couple grand but will end up with something that will do what you want (and more) with no problem.  My advice is to buy bigger than what you need now because you'll be surprised at what you can do with it and will find many more uses.  I use my mill and lathe for way more than working on firearms . . . which is what I bought them for in the first place.

Whatever you do, do NOT use a drill press for milling.  The chucks on those are not designed for side loads so it will eventually come off during a cut.  I've seen it happen and it can be exciting.

Once you get your mill, search the web for Ray-Vin, get the prints for his sideplates, and make a set.  They work!  I made a set back around '04 and still use them today.  The cost includes a few end mills, drill bits, and aluminum stock.  You'll eventually need the end mills and drill bits for other things anyway.

Now that was helpful advice.  I hadn't considered the round column shift when moving the toolhead.  That's the kind of thing I was looking for--thank you!

I'm a backyard car hobbyist, too.  I might just have to suck it up and buy an old Bridgeport (or equivalent).  Saw the JET 15 on CL for $800, and thought it might be good enough...but then I noticed all the Chinese benchtops have rectangular columns now.

Yeah...I know I'm going to be out some money in tooling/learning mistakes.  Hopefully, this won't turn into ANOTHER addictive hobby.

Now I'm off to go look at the Ray-Vin plates...

If you’re thinking about a mill, I can’t recommend a bridgeport enough. Once you have a machine, you’ll wonder how you ever managed without one. You’ll find all sorts of things to do with it-well beyond what you originally envision. This is where a bridgeport type mill really shines. They are extremely versatile. You can get all sorts of accessories for them. Parts are available should you need them. Plenty rigid enough for almost anything you could want to do.

Start looking for info on how to use it properly now, if you don’t have a background in machining. Get a copy of the machinist handbook. There’s a LOT to it all. (Cutting speed x 4) \Diameter is the formula to figure out the appropriate RPM. I would also see about getting some machining textbooks as well. That’ll help you decipher some of the stuff in the handbook. I think we used Machine Tool Practices by Kibbe when I was in school.

Hopefully this helps.

This is a fact!  Once I had mine set up and learned how to use it I wondered why I didn't buy one years earlier.  I use it a LOT!  One of the downsides (besides the added cost of tooling) is I've gotten so used to drilling precisely position holes that I hardly use my drill press now.  If you're mechanically inclined you'll pick up the knowledge to run it quickly.  Mine has a 3 axis DRO (with a 4th separate readout on the quill) that I consider required equipment.  Yes, you can count revolutions and marks on the handwheels but it's much easier to watch the display for position.

The Machinist Handbook is a must.  It contains more information than you'll ever need but is a very handy reference.  Anyone who operates a mill or a lathe should have this.

This is all going to cost a bit of $$$$ but is well worth it to someone who does most of his own work.  It'll pay off over time.  I've paid for my machines many times over just by avoiding having to buy a special tool or paying someone else to do the work.  There have been a few cash jobs done as well but those have been a drop in the bucket.  You'll be amazed at how many "buddies" you actually have once you get one too.  

Thanks, Woodsy.  I guess it's just been the buy-in cost that has put me off.  A nice Bridgeport (used) is a couple grand or more here, not counting DROs.  From what I've picked up, the DROs look to make jobs much easier, and I'm all about making things simple.

Simple question: Can I get a good machine that runs on single phase?

Or you could look for a Wells-Index or a 40 taper Cincinnati Toolmaster and have a heavier, more rigid machine.

Capable enough to "complete ARs"?  What are you starting from?

If you have an 80% lower, a $500 harbor freight mill can be used to mill out the pocket and poke your safety and FCG holes.  You just have to take lighter passes when you have the endmill sticking out so far to make it all the way to the bottom of the pocket.  An experienced machinist with a hobby size mill can still get the correct dimensions and better than decent surface finish.  

But if you're starting from a 0% lower, a block of aluminum, it would be a hell of a job making an AR lower from it for somebody with little to no experience.  Most of the job would be making your fixtures and coming up with milling strategy for the whole project.

If you have zero experience on a mill, it doesnt matter what mill you use, you're probably gonna jack it up your first go around.  Even milling an 80% and drilling the 3 holes in each side, you need to know how to do your setup, get the part indicated in very straight, edge find and get a reliable result, then drive to the correct position with the DRO, and make a bunch of passes to hog out all that material.  Then do another setup with more indicating and edgefinding so you can drill each side.  Its a lot of things to do all correctly or else your part will have booboos and birth marks.  Even remembering which direction to crank the wheels is important.  If you mill into a corner and need to change directions, and you turn a wheel the wrong way, you just took a bite out of your corner of the pocket.

The nice thing about Bridgeports is the versatility of them.   There are a huge number of parts and aftermarket stuff out there.

With a bit of imagination, I could do a wide array of setups, small or large.   I consider a knee a must, as mentioned above.

They are reasonably small.  My 9x42 fit in a tiny corner of the garage.  Downside is they weigh 2700 lbs, but I could muscle mine around a concrete floor with a bit of time and preparation.

For home workshop use, they are ideal.  Don't push them too hard.  There are much more rigid machines out there for serious production work.



A DRO of some sort is a MUST.  You can get a full blown 3 axis setup for 200- several hundred bucks, or the cheap single axis iGaging setups for $40 each.  They are cheaper now than ever.


Single phase availability is not a deal breaker.  VFDs are cheap and easy to setup.

The buy-in cost is significant but is well worth it if you're one that is mechanically-inclined and likes to work on your own stuff (sounds like you are).  Good machines can be had that run of single-phase (either with a single-phase motor or VFD) or even 115 V.  Mine runs off of single-phase with a VFD which is very handy . . . change speeds on the fly!

I can't recall hearing of anyone that was mechanically handy regretting buying machine tools.  It's a bit like getting set up for reloading but more expensive.  The investment pays for itself over time.

Learning machining isn't hard as long as you're willing to put in the time.  Those AR side plates were the first "to spec" project that I milled on my first machine.  The next was a 0% lower that came out looking factory made.  I had invested a LOT of hours reading about machining and watching videos before that tho.

While you’re not wrong, most folks do not have the means to deal with a 5000+lb piece of equipment. I sure don’t.

Unless you’re really needing to do some real hogging, a mill that size is probably overkill for most of us.

They aren't nearly that heavy.

I moved mine around with a Burke bar and four pieces of black pipe for rollers.   (Including offloading from the trailer.)

I'd be confident using the same technique with a 5000lb machine too.  Above 10k and I'd be looking at machinery skates.

Really? I’d love to find a horizontal mill light enough I could deal with it. Realistically, I can handle about 2500lbs.

ETA: I saw 40 taper and thought you were talking about a much larger machine than those. I you’re talking about what popped up when I googled wells index and Cincinnati toolmaster, then they’re about the same size as my bridgeport from the look of things.

Not to get all pompous or anything, but a Wells Index is not capable of "real hogging". For real hogging you're looking for something more like a Cincinnati or the larger Van Norman mills. A Wells Index (or Index prior to the merger) is a direct competitor to a Bridgeport, they don't have the name recognition among hobbyists and garage machinists so they don't sell for stupid money like Bridgeports.

To put it I  perspective my dad has  Van Norman 36 that weighs a touch over 8,000 lbs. I have an Index 756 that weighs slightly over 3,000 lbs. A few pieces of 1/2" galvanized water pipe is how I move the Index mill and my 4,000 lb lathe. You just have to be aware of tipping etc. The more pipes the better so you don't get it over center.