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Posted: 8/9/2022 12:37:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Yes it reverts back to Title I.
NFA (Title II) are ONLY considered NFA items when configured as such. Same goes with SBR/SBS, etc etc. You can slap a 16"+ Barrel on an SBR and tote it across state lines into unfriendly states, zero issue. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 12:55:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it reverts back to Title I. NFA (Title II) are ONLY considered NFA items when configured as such. Same goes with SBR/SBS, etc etc. You can slap a 16"+ Barrel on an SBR and tote it across state lines into unfriendly states, zero issue. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 12:57:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it reverts back to Title I. NFA (Title II) are ONLY considered NFA items when configured as such. Same goes with SBR/SBS, etc etc. You can slap a 16"+ Barrel on an SBR and tote it across state lines into unfriendly states, zero issue. Thanks. But the more research I did, there seems to be some debate on Pistols to SBR's and back to Pistols (I know, not the same as you posted). As you've now "manufactured a new Rifle", so it can't go back to a Pistol. Unless stripped of parts and "re-manufactured" as a pistol by a manufacturer. So that's why I was wondering about AOW's going back to a Pistol. I really wanted to go the SBR route on an MP5K, but not if it can't legally go back to a Pistol if the stock is removed. It's all so very confusing. I may just stick to leaving it as a Pistol and go with the tight sling SAS method. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 1:09:43 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. But the more research I did, there seems to be some debate on Pistols to SBR's and back to Pistols (I know, not the same as you posted). As you've now "manufactured a new Rifle", so it can't go back to a Pistol. Unless stripped of parts and "re-manufactured" as a pistol by a manufacturer. So that's why I was wondering about AOW's going back to a Pistol. I really wanted to go the SBR route on an MP5K, but not if it can't legally go back to a Pistol if the stock is removed. It's all so very confusing. I may just stick to leaving it as a Pistol and go with the tight sling SAS method. That's horseshit. You can go back as much as you want between the two of it started it's life as a pistol (or technically anything other than a rifle). There is a rule known as first a Rifle always a rifle. Basically you can't take a factory rifle and make it a pistol. But that's not what your example is talking about. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 1:17:47 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks to the OP for refreshing this for me (and to the subsequent posters who have cleared this subject again, to my obfuscated memory).
I was just having this doubt myself - since I purchased several pistols recently (Evo, MP5 and two others) and was debating whether, by stamping them, I'd lose forever the ability to then, un-SBR them and sell them back to the market in the easier format (for resale) of pistols - easy sale (versus registered SBR). This cleared it - I'm appreciative |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 1:18:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. But the more research I did, there seems to be some debate on Pistols to SBR's and back to Pistols (I know, not the same as you posted). As you've now "manufactured a new Rifle", so it can't go back to a Pistol. Unless stripped of parts and "re-manufactured" as a pistol by a manufacturer. No difference, if you SBR an AR pistol and then revert back to the original pistol configuration it is a Title 1 pistol again. The ATF has made it pretty clear that SBR/SBS/AOW are only NFA items when actually configured as such. The axiom of 'once a rifle always a rifle' is limited to a receiver that was originally configured as such, as in you can't buy a Title 1 AR and convert it into a pistol. ETA: Beat |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 1:24:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No difference, if you SBR an AR pistol and then revert back to the original pistol configuration it is a Title 1 pistol again. The ATF has made it pretty clear that SBR/SBS/AOW are only NFA items when actually configured as such. The axiom of 'once a rifle always a rifle' is limited to a receiver that was originally configured as such, as in you can't buy a Title 1 AR and convert it into a pistol. ETA: Beat Another example, I bought a complete lower with a stock. Transfer as other. Removed stock immediately, install brace, attach 11" upper. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 2:37:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have a Pistol like and MP5K, Form 1 AOW it & add a VFG, if you take off the VFG, does it become a non-NFA pistol again? Or is it still considered an AOW since you "re-manufactured it" via a Form 1 into an AOW? I know AOW's don't require interstate travel approval, and most States actually allow AOW's, but conversion back to a non-NFA for interstate travel might be better than AOW status. Thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have a Pistol like and MP5K, Form 1 AOW it & add a VFG, if you take off the VFG, does it become a non-NFA pistol again? Or is it still considered an AOW since you "re-manufactured it" via a Form 1 into an AOW? I know AOW's don't require interstate travel approval, and most States actually allow AOW's, but conversion back to a non-NFA for interstate travel might be better than AOW status. Thanks. Quoted: Thanks. But the more research I did, there seems to be some debate on Pistols to SBR's and back to Pistols (I know, not the same as you posted). As you've now "manufactured a new Rifle", so it can't go back to a Pistol. Unless stripped of parts and "re-manufactured" as a pistol by a manufacturer. So that's why I was wondering about AOW's going back to a Pistol. I really wanted to go the SBR route on an MP5K, but not if it can't legally go back to a Pistol if the stock is removed. It's all so very confusing. I may just stick to leaving it as a Pistol and go with the tight sling SAS method. The first thing you need to do it ditch the word manufacture. It’s has nothing to do with this situation. A Form 1 is to “make” a firearm, not “manufacture” a firearm. You are a Maker, not a Manufacturer. There’s a huge difference, and the words are not interchangeable. Different forms, regulations, taxes/fees/etc for the two different situations. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 2:42:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NFA (Title II) are ONLY considered NFA items when configured as such. (This isn’t directed at you…just using your reply as the starting point) We say this all the time, but I do feel we also need to point out that “configured as” does not equal “looks like”. For example: 1. Buy a factory 16” rifle 2. File a Form 1 to make it into an SBR 3. Swap the upper (or just barrel) to something <16” 4. You now have an SBR However…if you remove that stock and replace it with a brace, you still have an SBR. It may “look like” a pistol, but it’s “configured as” an SBR…because it meets the definition of “weapon made from a rifle”. No matter how dumb we think it is, it’s very easy to have two firearms identical in appearance that aren’t classified the same. You could do the same thing with an SBS. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 3:31:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Here's were I'm getting my info. Old thread on M4carbine.net
OK, I skipped a lot of the responses here, so it may have actually been covered. But, I will say, I have gone through this process, and know how it works, legally. First, you can take a pistol, configure it to a rifle, and then re-configure it back to a pistol. This was all settled in the case over Thompson contenders, for they can easily do just that. Now, to this. Once you registered your pistol as an sbr, legally, you remanufactured it. It is no longer a pistol, or receiver. It is now a rifle, period. Yes, you can put a longer barrel on it, and cross state lines w/O an f5, but it still now a rifle. Can it ever be a pistol again, legally? Short answer is yes. The full answer is that an 07/sot can disassemble the rifle, removing the barrel and stock (both, important here), and re-manufacture it as a pistol once again, and remove it from the nfa registry. There is no provision for individuals to do this, it must be a manufacturer. For any who wonder how I know this. I was the 'smith at an 07/sot. We sbr'ed one of those pps43 pistols. Later, when no one had shown any interest in buying it, the owner wanted to know if we could make it back into a pistol, or a non-sbr rifle. The above info is from a rather extensive couple of conversations I had with the batfe attorney about it. Who knows what the ATF would say about this today? I guess the next questions is: Has anymore sent in a letter to the ATF informing them they were converting their SBR back into a Pistol (Removal from NFA). And got a copy of there letter back from the ATF with ATF acknowledgement (basically saying it's ok)? I think that would be our proof it's ok. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 3:48:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's were I'm getting my info. Old thread on M4carbine.net Who knows what the ATF would say about this today? I guess the next questions is: Has anymore sent in a letter to the ATF informing them they were converting their SBR back into a Pistol (Removal from NFA). And got a copy of there letter back from the ATF with ATF acknowledgement (basically saying it's ok)? I think that would be our proof it's ok. The person that wrote that doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Wasn’t correct then, isn’t correct now. Being 'smith at an 07/sot doesn’t automatically make your right by any stretch of the imagination. I got all kinds of bad info at M4C before I quit visiting. (Not in any way implying all the info at ARF is accurate) And there’s no reason to write a letter to the ATF about any of this. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 3:54:43 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. But the more research I did, there seems to be some debate on Pistols to SBR's and back to Pistols (I know, not the same as you posted). As you've now "manufactured a new Rifle", so it can't go back to a Pistol. Unless stripped of parts and "re-manufactured" as a pistol by a manufacturer. So that's why I was wondering about AOW's going back to a Pistol. I really wanted to go the SBR route on an MP5K, but not if it can't legally go back to a Pistol if the stock is removed. It's all so very confusing. I may just stick to leaving it as a Pistol and go with the tight sling SAS method. Once a pistol, always a pistol |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 4:27:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Everyone seems agree you can but I’ve never been convinced. It’s such a rare situation there just isn’t much to go off.
In my mind it makes perfect sense that a newly made gun is the same as starting from scratch. I think it’s one of the many situations that nobody foresaw. Quote HistoryQuoted: Once a pistol, always a pistol And you are basing that on what? |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 4:37:58 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 8/9/2022 5:08:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Yeah Ive read as many of these threads as I could find over the years looking for a clear answer.
No one ever agrees. Just like the threads asking how to ship a lower for engraving. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 5:11:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah Ive read as many of these threads as I could find over the years looking for a clear answer. No one ever agrees. Just like the threads asking how to ship a lower for engraving. Well here you go. This is your time for clarification. You can go back and forth as many times as you want if the firearm in question wasn't originally configured as a rifle. Period. Full stop. You can take it to the bank. If it WAS originally a rifle, you can still go back and forth as many times as you want from Title I Rifle and SBR, by adding a barrel 16" or longer. Period. Full stop. You can take it to the bank. Clear enough? |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 5:15:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone seems agree you can but I’ve never been convinced. It’s such a rare situation there just isn’t much to go off. In my mind it makes perfect sense that a newly made gun is the same as starting from scratch. I think it’s one of the many situations that nobody foresaw. And you are basing that on what? Please read this. It's plain as day. You can look at the summary at the end. It specifically mentions disassembly and reconfiguration, and allows it. It also mentions in the same ruling that an NFA item is ONLY under the perview of the NFA while configured as an NFA item. Let's stop with the "ambiguity" - as it's not. It's crystal clear. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 6:08:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please read this. It's plain as day. You can look at the summary at the end. It specifically mentions disassembly and reconfiguration, and allows it. It also mentions in the same ruling that an NFA item is ONLY under the perview of the NFA while configured as an NFA item. Let's stop with the "ambiguity" - as it's not. It's crystal clear. Quote HistoryQuoted: Please read this. It's plain as day. You can look at the summary at the end. It specifically mentions disassembly and reconfiguration, and allows it. It also mentions in the same ruling that an NFA item is ONLY under the perview of the NFA while configured as an NFA item. Let's stop with the "ambiguity" - as it's not. It's crystal clear. It specifically names almost every situation except going NFA and back. Almost every thing I see listed there says “except for NFA” or “when reconfigured into non NFA” like NFA stuff is different. Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 6:38:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It specifically names almost every situation except going NFA and back. Almost every thing I see listed there says “except for NFA” or “when reconfigured into non NFA” like NFA stuff is different. This is straight from the NFA Handbook. Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 7:47:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please read this. It's plain as day. You can look at the summary at the end. It specifically mentions disassembly and reconfiguration, and allows it. It also mentions in the same ruling that an NFA item is ONLY under the perview of the NFA while configured as an NFA item. Let's stop with the "ambiguity" - as it's not. It's crystal clear. Yes, that ruling is crystal clear. Unfortunately, not long before that ruling was published, ATF FTB in fact issued letters (at least some of which have been widely shared online) indicating that even if a firearm started as being a pistol, once reconfigured to a rifle configuration, reconfiguration to a pistol configuration would result in making a firearm from a rifle/ SBR. Those letters were a deviation from what ATF had used as their standard for a long time and are a deviation from what ATF has since formalized. Regardless, the damage that those letters had is blatently obvious. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 8:05:43 PM EDT
[#21]
This from the handbook seems to answer the AOW to non-NFA Pistol question.
A shot pistol (“any other weapon”) such as an H&R Handy Gun may be removed from the NFA by either disposing of the smooth bore barrel or permanently installing a rifled sleeve chambered to accept a standard pistol cartridge into the smooth bore barrel. Modified by sleeving the barrel, an H&R Handy Gun is no longer an NFA weapon because it now has a rifled bore. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 9:50:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Anybody that uses the NFA Handbook as law only has themselves to blame. It may say what you want it to say, but it also contains multiple errors and it quite outdated. It holds zero weight of law.
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Posted: 8/9/2022 10:19:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anybody that uses the NFA Handbook as law only has themselves to blame. It may say what you want it to say, but it also contains multiple errors and it quite outdated. It holds zero weight of law. So what side of the argument are you on? Yes, a pistol to SBR can go back to pistol if the stock is removed? Or no, it’s now a rifle and can’t go back to a pistol? |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 10:39:21 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what side of the argument are you on? Yes, a pistol to SBR can go back to pistol if the stock is removed? Or no, it’s now a rifle and can’t go back to a pistol? Pistol to SBR to pistol is fine. I’m simply saying don’t trust the NFA Handbook as proof. Somebody emailed the ATF the question and Gary (the head of the NFA Division at the time) said it was fine. That won’t hold up in court, either…but there’s nothing in the regs to indicate pistol->rifle->pistol is legal yet pistol->short-barreled rifle->pistol is not. 
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Posted: 8/9/2022 10:43:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pistol to SBR to pistol is fine. I’m simply saying don’t trust the NFA Handbook as proof. Somebody emailed the ATF the question and Gary (the head of the NFA Division at the time) said it was fine. That won’t hold up in court, either…but there’s nothing in the regs to indicate pistol->rifle->pistol is legal yet pistol->short-barreled rifle->pistol is not. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/126679/180B71AC-AD2E-4A9A-8766-7DD4A98FE390-1077400.jpg Thanks. |
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