Hello all,

Researching these two options however I had specific questions for those experienced with the platforms, what gun would you pick if:

-Shooting left handed
-It will be a braced gun for its life
-Wanting a smooth/svelte option
-Wanting reliability over wide range of ammo (I do hand load though)

Essentially is the Scorpion with all the aftermarket options comparably a modern MP5 clone or does the MP5 still have an edge? Is the MP5 worth the premium logically or more of an emotional choice? Or just pick one and there is enough aftermarket to do whatever I need to do?

I’ve read reviews of both guns but would like to know how they compare with the above situation - left handed, braced, etc. Thanks in advance!

I'm a left eye dominant shooter and I own both an SBR'd Scorpion and an SBR'd MKE MP5.

I enjoy the Scorpion quite a bit, mostly because it has better ergos/ controls and a LRBHO.

The MP5 is certainly more "svelte" as you say, but I have no recoil issues with 9mm when fired from the shoulder or even from the palm of my hand.

Both guns are designed to fire M822, and that's what I feed them. Old school Federal Hydra Shok is my defense load, and they both have proven perfectly reliable with that as well. Neither one particularly likes 147gr truncated cone projectiles... but very few double column, double feed guns do.

The MP5 is quieter suppressed, which is a big one for me... but not on your list.

IF you can detach yourself from emotion, and if it weren't for your "svelte" requirement, Scorpion would have it all day over the MP5.

Those are the facts. My opinion, which I will add, is that MKE or POF is superior to the PTR guns.

Thanks Kalashnikev, very insightful and has tempered my expectations to a more logical level. Much appreciated!

I was in similar boat. Between a Zenith MP5K clone or a Scorpion. I really wanted the Zenith,  but went with a Scorpion and couldn't be happier.

Scorpion was half the price, mags are 1/3 the price. I was able to buy all the accessories I wanted, and a couple more guns.

I still want the Zenith though, but I love my Scorpion.

Love both. Own both. My only trepidation with the zenith is that it has a more complexity operating system and is comprised of fungible parts (rollers) and issues with widening bolt gap with high volume shooting. The Scorpion is stupid simple, well made and reliable (as is the zenith). You’re really comparing a space age sub gun to a weapon designed in the late 50’s that, while perfectly fine, is mostly popular for nostalgic reasons when more modern guns have displaced it is actual service, like the M4. I also love the price on the CZ, as well as the price and availability of replacement and aftermarket parts cannot be overstated.

Both are excellent PPC's.  I own both but if I had to pick one I'd go Cz.  The HK design is softer shooting because of the roller lock system.  The down side of owning Hk anything including clones is cost.  There is absolutely nothing inexpensive about them.  Parts for the Hk are plentiful but expensive.  The Hk is harder to mount optics too and requires a specific mount, i.e. Additional cost.  The PTR guns come with one welded on.  Some purists don't like that.  I have found that cleaning roller lock guns is more tedious and takes a bit longer getting into all the nooks and grannies of the weapon and bolt.

The Cz being straight blowback has a more abrupt recoil impulse than the Hk.  Being straight blowback it is dead nuts reliable will eat almost any ammo including steel and aluminum case stuff.  Roller lock guns don't play nice with those ammo types.  I find it easier and faster to clean than a roller lock platform.  The blowback design works well enough that Hk went with it in their UMP/USC platforms.   The Cz has a robust aftermarket for spare parts and other items.  The Cz mags run about $20 each.  Factory Hk mags are around $70 but POF mags can be had for about $30.  If you want to SBR your Hk someday expect to pay about $300+ for a collapsible stock.  Cz folding stocks run about half that.

I'm a left handed shooter and the ambi controls on the Cz are awesome.  Aftermarket selectors make it even nicer.  Ambi lowers for the Hk are not cheap.

I have no issues shooting either left handed.  The controls on the Hk are a bit slower since mine only has a safety/selector on the left side.  The charging handle on the Cz is reversible and you can add a second one if you are so inclined.

Shooting either with a brace is a blast.  Lefty or not the brace makes no difference.

Let's not forget that the Cz has a last round bolt hold open and release. Not available on the Hk or clones unless you build an uber expensive 10mm/.40 clone.

If you ever want to swap a barrel on an Hk get ready to send it off to someone who knows how to do it properly,  Anyone with basic mechanical skills and an internet connection can swap a CZ barrel.

If you ever get a major malfunction with a roller lock gun and have to Heman the bolt back to get it clear you probably will bend the extractor spring.  No biggie unless you don't have a spare.  They are cheap and you should own a few spares just in case.  The extractor on the Cz is a massive thing that will probably last longer than the owner.

While PTR has been making G3/91 clones for a long time the 9mm variants are new and time will tell if they make the grade compared to A factory Hk or licensed made gun like the MKE guns.  US made parts are not held in the same regard as the German or even Turkish parts.  YMMV.  The CZ has been in use by many nations and has proven to be reliable and robust.

Finally consider the cost of entry.  Zeniths are hard to find at the moment and command a premium price.  The PTR is excellent but cost over $1700.  The Cz starts at around $800.  The difference leaves a lot of $ in your wallet or allows you to add all the accessories and ammo you could want for the same price.

The third option is a B&T GHM9. Less expensive than the HK type but built like a Rolex.  Spendy mags with an uber smooth action and ambi everything.  

In the end it's a personal choice.  For me the Cz is just more modern and user friendly than the roller lock designs.  That being said the Hk and its clones are flat out cool.

See if you can rent one of each at a range and decide which you like shooting best.

LLOLOLOLOL!!!1!

The B&T GHM9 is less expensive than the HK type, but built like a TAURUS... because it is exactly like an SMT-9 with a shinier paint job and better finish.

It's still just a dumb block-bolt running inside an extrusion.

If you're going for a Swiss Watch analogy, perhaps Swatch would be more appropriate...

Agree the GHM-9 is finely built and, while a blowback design, uses an integrated hydraulic buffer system resulting in very minimal recoil. The extrusion and parts, including the chf barrel, are perfect in every way. In other words, it’s not a Taurus. A solid option if you don’t like the CZ. I’d also look to the B&T P26 if you can find one, which uses a spring-loaded ball berring to delay blowback. They’re out of production, but can be found.

Since they will both be range toys for you, MP5.

The EVO is popular because it’s cheap, that’s not always good or bad, just know that when people talk about it, that it’s people primarily concerned with the costs and those people might not ACTUALLY be putting thousands of rounds down them.

My issue with the EVO before selling mine was it has more recoil than my 556 SBR, and is much louder suppressed than an MP5. It was the combination of the two that pushed me to sell.

Everyone is a 20k round a year shooter on the Internet, everyone is an expert and “uses their guns hard”, bla bla bla... IDK, there is a reason the HK UMP never took off with police who could get it at a reasonable price, the EVO is pretty much a cheaper UMP.

It’s a fine gun, but I can promise if you think you might notice the difference between the two, you already know which one you probably want.

Own both options.  Buy the PTR and don't look back.  Classic styling, roller lock goodness with an integrated optic rail.  If you buy the Scorpion you could easily spend the difference on upgrades.  PTR MP5 option is the right choice here.

Choose old school Scorpian or new style Scorpion, but go with one of them

They don't make any aftermarket upgrades for the Scorpion- only downgrades.

Also, again... there is absolutely no way I would save $200 with an American made MP5 while new MKE production is still available.

Everyone has their opinion, so I’ll add mine. I went with the CZ Scorpion pistol. While ok stock, I quickly spent some time polishing the trigger, adding a spring kit, different grip, railed. Handguard as well as a stock folding brace with the tail hook. Runs great, looks and feels great. Is it an MP5, no but it’s not meant to be. In stock form though, the Scorpion is reliable but has some ergonomic issues in my opinion. If you’re willing to spend a few bucks to fix the shortcomings, you won’t be disappointed. If you expect it to be perfect out the gate and not willing to improvise then I’d suggest just ponying up the cash for an MP5/MP5 clone.

As previously stated, the scorpion sells so well because it's inexpensive, and it does what it's meant to do.

That said, you already know what you want, and you're trying to justify the price of the MP5 clone.

I was having the same issue about a month ago.  I decided to buy what I really wanted, and went with the PTR9CT.  Buy once cry once.

I knew if I bought the EVO, I'd always know that I settled based on price.  I couldn't be happier with my choice.

I've got around 900 trouble-free rounds through my 9CT.  It's extremely accurate, and a hell of a lot of fun to shoot.

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Right............ Because the crappy 8 to 9lb stock trigger is so good that everyone replaces it. Factory disconnects that break so you buy the CZ Custom upgrade to avoid that failure again.  Right side factory selector lever that digs into your hand.  Soft hammers that get chewed up....etc.

Do you even own a PTR...  I doubt it or you wouldn't be making those ignorant comments.

Left eye dominant left handed shooter here.  The obvious answer is right between your two choices.  The Sig MPX.  It really beats up on the scorpion in my opinion but is completely ambidextrous so for you it would be better than the mp5 clone at the same or lower price point.  B&T GHM9 is another seriou contender in that price range and without a doubt going to beat out the scorpion.

Edit: I own a gen 1 8 inch MPX running a SD3G trigger, have at least a 1000 rounds on it and I'm a happy camper.  I have run it beside scorpions and it's not much of a comparison.  Though the scorpion gets it done just not as pleasingly.

Sounds like you got a lemon... my Scorpion has been rock solid for thousands of rounds and always delivers solid performance.

Of course not... I own two of their G3 types, but I wouldn't if you could still buy a SAR-8 for $200 more.

Thanks all for the comments! It looks like this one might be six of one and a half dozen of the other.

After handling and researching the Scorpion more I’ve decided against it for my personal use, and for the MP5 I must admit I have not seen the Zenith and PTR options in person so after reading some of the comments I’m going to seek them out in person and go from there. Thanks!

Honestly I've been looking hard at the ptr, even though I have the mpx.  I think you would be happier with either one compared to the scorpion.  Good luck on getting one to handle, only one at a lgs I've seen lately was a reverse stretch mke now if I recall.

As a Scorpion carbine owner, I vote for it.  There's a lot of good advice above.  I use mine in USPSA and Steel Challenge, and it does those jobs very admirably.  Being able to shoot WWB and pick up 30 rnd mags new for 20-25 bucks is icing on the case.

Disclosure: I'm also an MP5 fan, and own a GSG5SD, cause well, a 9mm clone is still too expensive all around.  My only real experience with a Real MP5 was I got to do a mag dump through a real MP5SD a loooong time ago.

MKE doesn't even make a Reverse Stretch (nor should they).

The RS means something else.

Shot them all, PTR!!

PTR vs Scorpion vs B&T vs Kriss

I own a Scoprion and I'm very happy with it.
I'm also a MP5 fan... after all its the most famous SMG on the planet for a reason! (still not worth the extra price for a 50+ years old design)

that said Ive used a friend MP5 and there are a couple of things that I didnt like besides the price... selector manipulation is not the most comfortable... the lack of bolt open... mounting an optic requires adapters... price of spare parts & mags....and according to my friend some ammo dont feed well like TC or HP.

the evo is without doubt a cheaper made gun but still rock solid and has all the above features that the Mp5 does not.

Ok, I guess everyone who uses that term all the time are wrong.  I don't know enough about them to argue.

Anyone try this yet?

This.

I have a Scorpion and love it.  But if I could afford to outfit an MP5 rifle similarly, I would have done that instead because they're awesome.

But I have a Carbine, and don't play the brace game.  HTH.

I've got them both, and nostalgia aside, the only way you'd be reaching for the MP5 over the Scorp is by holding your breath as long as possible while repeatedly slapping yourself in the face and mentally repeating the mantra "It runs Smooooth and Svelte!!!" continuously.

5~7 iterations of this (as long as you can possibly hold your breath) and you will start to forget about why LRBHO is important, or how nice it feels to actually grip the weapon and run your thumb on the far (normal) side of the receiver.

Alternatively, you can perform the exact same exercise while repeating the incantation "Feeeeel the Swiss quality!!!" in your head and you might be able to convince yourself that the B&T isn't a $400 gun with a $,$$$ price tag... and why brick-in-a-shoebox is considered a maintenance plus for the GHM and a "svelte" minus for the Scorpion.

Once the oxygen gets back in your blood, and the brain unit kicks back on, you will realize what an ergonomic nightmare the MP5 and it's associated manual of arms is... and why B&T is just pricey junk.

Scorpion is dominant for more reasons than price alone.
(...but for some folks that's a big one!)

I'm not quite sure what to think of this. I'll own an MP5 clone at some point. I have an SBR Scorpion with a Rugged Obsidian. It's the quietest gun I've ever shot with my 147gr reloads. And I do run this thing hard. It gets shot at least every other week.

It has more recoil than the zenith clone I shot, yeah. It's nowhere near the recoil of an AR though. Nowhere close. My girlfriends AR has an adjustable gas block and a lightweight BCG tuned for one of my suppressors. Softest shooting AR I've ever handled, it's so pleasant. But the Scorpion is noticeably less than that.

The issues with the UMP is for another thread. The Scorpion is a modern PCC and subgun if you get the real thing.

Much is made on this forum of the amount of KA-POW! present in 9x19mm ammunition.

You will often find the words "harsh" and "jarring" used in posts by members.

The plain truth is- there's just not a lot of KA-POW! inside a 9mm- whether you fire it from the shoulder or a tiny lightweight pocket gun.

There just... isn't.

Wow you should write a firearms blog (and keep the hyperbole out of serious discussion).

Fact: there's a big difference between a pocket sized 9mm and one with a stock.

No hyperbolic silliness- every single word is the god damned truth.

The "emperor has no clothes" phenomenon is strong in the PCC/ SMG world.

...

MOAR Facts- It's still the same chambering, and while the level of KA-POW doesn't change, it's of course a lot easier to manage (no issue at all, really) from a shoulder fired weapon than from a tiny lightweight subcompact carry gun (also... no issue at all).

There's just not a whole lot of KA-POW in a 9x19mm round.

It's not in there.

I apparently have freakishly long thumbs, and can manipulate an HK safety just fine.  A roller locked PCC shoots extremely well.

And I have an extended CH on my Scorpion, allowing me to utilize the CH more like on an MP5.  But yes, a LRBHO is a thing....but I shoot revolvers too, and other things that also lack them, so it doesn't bother me.

That all being said, many MP5 things would be a huge issue to most shooters.  And issues on the Scorpion are easily fixed.  And B&T money is just stupid for a PCC.  The Scorpion can be modified to work for each specific shooter far more easily than most any other out there that was designed to shoot 9mm from square one; this is why it dominates the market.