I'm getting ready for a 3 day FTX in the woods of Michigan with my local militia.

Ticks are a concern this time of year and I was considering using Permethrin on my clothes, gear, bivy,etc.

I'm curious if anyone has any info on how Permethrin may or may not effect the IR signature of my gear.

I'm always careful not to wash my stuff with regular detergents because they can make you glow like a Christmas Tree.

Just curious if anyone has any first hand knowledge on this, or can point me to some good info.

Did several Google searches and came up empty, thanks!

It's a real post,  but now I'm worried, is it that dumb a question?

Why not just test it? Get a piece of clothing similar to what you'd use and apply some of whatever you will be using, and check how the signature changes if it does. With / without IR, with / without moonlight etc.

I'll probably end up doing that, I don't really have any scrap multicam but I guess I can sacrifice a boonie cap.

Seriously doubt that it is a passive near IR emitter since it will not produce any heat photons.

You would need an exothermic chemical reaction for it to produce any heat/IR emissions.

Just put it on your skin? Idk dude.  This is mall ninja stuff way above my clearance level.

I like it.  Take your trousers and spray just one leg and hang them up and take a look at them through NV

The .mil treats most of their general issue garments with permethrin from the factory. So I hope not. All the new Scorpion OCP stuff is pre-treated.

Wow, this thread is telling. Last time I checked our forefathers were considered by many to be militia.

This is why our rights will be taken. We have the out and out FUDDs and the closet FUDDs. Closet FUDDs are way worse.

Guys are always saying people should train and when they do they get mocked?

You know nothing about the threat vectors of the retail procurement centers in my A.O.

I'll try this stuff out and if I make it outta Banana Republic alive I'll report back.

You should definitely NOT put permethrin on your skin.

I think you`re misunderstanding peoples responses here. I don`t detect any ridicule towards OP  being in a miltia. They are simply responding to the technical question he asked.

Why would you put something all over your clothes that "should definitely NOT be put on your skin"?

Just use some 100% DEET, bro.  Take some Vitamin C to keep chiggers away.  Put some sulphur powder in a sock and beat yourself with it.  It's good for both morale and pest control.

As long as the material is the same you'll be close enough (as far as I know). Of course the camo pattern & dye type used will affect the outcome, but the cloth material, in my mind, should be the most important in showing the differences or lack of them. But I am by no means an expert in this.

I am not sure if you meant IR as in thermal. If so then like SkyPup said doubt it'll make any difference whether you apply it or not. I assumed you talking about NV.

I think it’s because of the big Michigan militia movement in the 90s.  I never had an glow issue with permethrin on any of my gear.

Drinking the Pemethrin will extinguish the glow permanently.

Permethrin treated clothing and properly applied DEET to skin is the .mil protocol insect protection. DEET can affect some polymer and synthetic fabrics FYI so be careful using it on electronics and lens caps etc.

I would rather pull a few ticks then have my gear f'ed up

I appreciate the advice guys, no offense taken to anyone who doesn't care for militias.

Especially when you put the state of Michigan in front of the word it brings up certain stereotypes.

I promise we're not the explody type.

To answer a question: I was concerned about the IR spectrum picked up by devices like the PVS14 and not so much thermal.

If I can get a good picture through my PVS14 I'll post a couple side by side comparisons of treated vs non treated multicam boonies in a week or so.

It is a medication used by applying to the skin.

1) The medical forms are tested for purity and a lack of harmful contaminates. Non-medical products may not be so tested and could be risky. This was the problem with Agent Orange exposure back in Vietnam, toxic contaminates.

2) Concentrations differ greatly, and thus exposure.

3) The clothing treatments have binding agents in them designed to make it persist for as long as possible. Might not be great when topically applied.

I've been using permetrin on my uniforms for 2 years. There was no affect on Ir parameters of fabric observed in gen 3 and 4G devices.

I don't think there is any effect to near IR.  Here is my protocol for deep woods.  In skivvies, I apply GI bug juice (or commercial equivalent), paying particular attention to near groin area, waist, ankles, neck and wrists.  I then don cammies (surplus OCP with whatever P left in them), socks and boots.  I then spray with Deep Woods OFF, paying particular attention to ankle, waist, and neck areas.  Camo paint then goes on face, with hands usually covered by gloves (usually GI flight gloves in the bush).

This had worked well for me in the past.  I will find "crawlers" on me (especially if proned out in night ambushes) but very few "inbeds".  The key is to stay covered, even the camo paint helps a bit; no bare skin exposed.  It takes a lot of discipline, especially in the summer time, but you picks your discomforts.  Only a nitwit would say he prefers ticks to chemical exposure or whatever.  Lyme disease or Rocky Mountain Fever is no joke.

The reason I say I don't think there is any effect.  My bud and I frequently patrol in the southeast woodlands, with our -14's.  I have seen no difference between our near IR signature with OCP cammies, than with non-treated ones.  No "glint" as it were, like from commercial detergents with brightening agents.  The only difference I have noted is with time, and repeated washings, the OCP's will get somewhat "brighter" as the cammo pattern fades into a more monolithic green blob under IR.  But I think that has more to do with the way the material is initially dyed (and/or the material composition) than the chemical treatment.  Any regular camo is much the same.  As I pointed out in the gear section, back in the day, the Teams used to dye woodland cammies with black Rit dye.  Now some have speculated this had something to do with NIR, but could have been just to blend in better visually.  My guess is it made them look about the same, whether wet or dry.  Perhaps this blended better in maritime environments, kinda a precursor to "Under Way" stuff.  Or it could have been because the Navy laundry system (especially aboard ships) was really causing them glint.  Who knows.

What I really think is a concern, as some have pointed out, is thermal signature.  When you put "bug juice" on your skin, it does clog up your pores somewhat, which makes it harder for your skin to blow off heat.  That and the clothing you must wear can raise your temp thus your heat signature.  OCP's aren't helping much because the Nomex and Kevlar strands in the weave make the material slightly hotter, then say Nyco 50-50.  So what I would suggest is that your heat signature, when viewed through a thermal device, is going to be effected by bug juice, and the temp/humidity you are training in.  To off-set this, I would suggest keeping all skin covered, which will diffuse the signature; also, a light weight head and shoulders ghillie works well.  We use a mosquito net base with paracord and jute string, which works well in extremely hot environments.  The hood will hide your face signature, down to a head on aspect.

But to the OP, I don't think "P" has any effect on Near IR.

I'm in the woods of northern Michigan everyday cutting wood and almost every night hunting coyotes. Over the past few years I have only got 2 ticks, One last year and one this year(Skeeters are the problem).

Go to the woods, Have fun and stop worrying about a tick.

Tick prevalence isn't the same everywhere. Around here if I go through 50 yards of brush or low veg in the woods in the fall, spring, or even winter if the temps are above say 40 degrees or so, I'll be flicking 8-12 ticks off my pants on the other side.

Not in Michigan, were OP lives. Only time you see ticks is spring really.

And temps above 40 in the winter lol more like 30 below.

Dizz, I was referring to chemicals around my optics...which the post before mine mentioned...was not meant to be taken literally.

I live in Ohio...ticks only an issue for a season.  I use commercial bug spray and deet sometimes, but I am not hard core stalking in the deeps woods....I'm just camping and hiking.  I am carful with deet, I have seen it fuck up some materials...I don't let it near my best toys...

Learned something new.  I didn’t realize it was available in a clothing treatment and that we weren’t talking about the topical form.  I assumed (incorrectly) we were talking about Nix.

Heineken: My bad; was not trying to single anybody out; just ridiculing the idea of discounting ticks.

My assumption was also that we were discussing P-impregnated clothing, as is the military practice, not anything you would apply to skin.

I kinda get the OP wondering if it would act as a "brightener" on clothing, but also was wondering why somebody would have thought about that, in the scheme of things to worry about.  As far as I know, the chemical would be soaked into the material before fabrication, and would have no outward visible "signature" on a finished garment.  Unlike the "brightening" products which are designed to enhance the colors of clothing.  And can cause glint under Near IR. I don't know why someone would draw a connection there.

This conversation kinda reminds me of shikelgrubber applying mud to his skin as some kind of IR camo against the terminator.  And the magazine articles showing goofs imitating this in training classes.  You can get out in the weeds with this stuff real fast.  I would not be worrying about minute details like this when getting together with others for training.  I would concentrate on team skills training while you have the opportunity, and sort out individual clothing and equipment on your own time.

The bottom line here is that all this stuff is still line of sight.  If you are using the terrain properly, to mask yourself from observers, whenever possible, then you will be much harder to spot, regardless of what technology the oppo is using.  This gets lost frequently in these discussions.

All good.  Got some good info from the thread.  I'll admit if I was doing deep woods type stuff I am using your techniques...much smarter then ticks and other bugs in all the wrong places!

Yeah man typically after a night ambush, your "buddy check" would find at least 5-6 crawlers.  The trick is to get them before they deep dive.  Same for stream crossings.  Buddy check and get the leaches off before they bite.  Old timers wore x-large panty hose in deep jungles.  Sounds funny at first, but then when you think about it...

Permethrin is an organic insecticide that comes from the chrysanthemum and is available in different strengths. It can be used in topical creams to combat scabies and lice...but it can also be sprayed in less dilute form to kill most insects. Topical applications usually contain 2% or less and are pharmaceutical grade (pure).

For soak-treating clothes I've always heard you want a 10% concentrate. For insect spraying or for dilution in a washing machine you can get 38%.

I've always found it seems to take better if you roll your clothes up, put them in a bag, pour in the 10% solution, and let the bag soak for a couple days. Then air dry the clothes. It just seems to bind to the fabric better than doing it in the washer.

It's pretty neat stuff, but you still want to pay attention to the dilution if you're gonna have it in contact with your body.

@benzy2

Ok, I went ahead and took some comparison pictures of two boonie caps, one untreated and the other one I treated half of the cap.





The Permethrin I used was Repel Brand, and it does have a warning not to apply directly to your skin.



I'm using a wilcox amber filter on my PVS14.

I allowed the cap to dry for 24 hrs.

The right half of the cap on the right has been treated.

As you can see,  no IR glint or any indication that the hat has been treated.



Here I'm using the 14's IR Illuminator.



And here I'm using the Surefire KM2-B IR illuminator, the hot spot of the light is directly on the treated portion of the cap.



I didn't expect to find anything on the thermal but I figured what the heck, might as well try it.

The first pic is the cap at room temperature,  the second is after I wore the cap for an hour.

Both pics taken on the FLIR Thermosight Pro.

Yeah that's pretty much what I expected.

It won't have any effect to NIR, but might be a pretty good idea to treat your cammies in heavy tick-infested areas.  If you can get it in liquid form and soak the material, I think it would probably last longer than a rattle can spray bomb.

Another technique the old timers used was to paint or dye in black streaks on their OG cammies.  Doesn't sound like much but if you think about faded od green fabric with dark black streaks in it, it probably had really good contrast in NIR.  Might be a good field expedient if caught out.

The old school DPM (and desert DPM) had some of the best contrast under NIR.  I would think that shit would work really well in the northern forests up there.

So yeah, go have fun.

Ticks are bad this year and we have Lymes to worry about. In the past I've bought Sawyer soaking kits but they don't seem to be available anymore. Ran across this article, good info.

https://sectionhiker.com/permethrin-soak-method-guide/

Great info overall despite not all of it NV related. And great you took the time to test the NIR signature. I haven't tried the soaking method but sounds like a good idea. Where I live we have ticks the whole summer and it's absolutely certain you will find them if you ever walk even a meter in longer grass. With some incredible luck I've managed to avoid all but 2 of them sticking that nasty head into me.

Just figured I'd update this thread, the July FTX was a huge success even if turnout was a little lower than some other years.

Permetherin must have done it's job, didn't find one tick and the mosquitos left me alone as well.

I'm not in this large group shot because I'm the cameraman.



This was my squad for the weekend, I'm the overly aggressive looking chap on the left.



It was a 3 day game of capture the flag, what you carried into the field is what you had for 3 days.

We came in 3rd, fun was had by all.

Good Deal.
I've been using sawyers for years.
You can find or order it from Home depot.
Here in NY, Lyme's is running rampant and has been for years.
Never had any issue's with NV or thermal, as you found out in your testing.
The big concern for me is the smell of the treatment.
I hunt in close quarters and I've noticed a big difference on how my quarry reacted when I used any of the sprays/topical applications. They stink.
With the sawyers clothing treatment, I've had no issues with smell or ticks.
Don't drink it and you'll be fine.

Thanks for the input guys, interesting to hear that animals can smell the permetherin.

Shouldn't be surprised considering the fumes when I was applying the stuff.

Once it dried I couldn't detect it's presence, but like I said, shouldn't be surprised that animals can smell it.

OP they took the phos out of laundry detergent years ago. You're gonna b fine washing your stuff. Besides, 4G and thermal made it all irrelevant anyway.