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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:17:03 PM EDT
Loaded up a range of 230gr plated rounds over varying grains of W231 to develop a suppressed .45 load for my new Obsidian 45. I’ve been shooting 9mm suppressed for years but am new to suppressed .45. Currently my only host is a factory P220 Elite threaded barrel model, unmodified.
Foolishly I only brought one mag with me, an OEM Sig extended 10rd mag. When fully loaded the first 3-4rds will result in the malfunction shown in the photos below. If I only load 5rds it will function fine and the slide will lock back. I suspect the mag spring is too strong or perhaps the slide is closing too quickly, but admittedly I have little trigger time with suppressed .45’s and barely shot this host unsuppressed while awaiting the stamp (when I did shoot it unsuppressed with this mag it ran reliably, fyi). Any input is greatly appreciated.   |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:34:14 PM EDT
[#1]
We know the suppressor creates more gas pressure / blow back. So should accelerate the slide. Maybe stronger slide spring? Or lower powder charge.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:35:02 PM EDT
[#2]
What is your projectile fps?
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:42:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is your projectile fps? Unsure, I didn’t chrono them. I’d guess 775-825fps. Almost all rounds were 5.0gr of W231. I didn’t want to waste the loads I had worked up from 4.8-5.2gr in 0.1gr increments once it became clear there was a function issue, although the few 4.8gr loads I tried also resulted in this malfunction. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 7:13:31 PM EDT
[#4]
@Marcus99
Have you cleaned and lubed the piston assembly in the silencer such that it can adequately decouple the inertial resistance of the silencer from the weapon? If you do that, and it still doesn't work correctly, my opinion would be to contact Rugged for suggestions. Recoil spring assembly modification may be performed but I would hesitate to do that without the first step of piston assembly maintenance. Jay PEW Science |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 7:21:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Marcus99 Have you cleaned and lubed the piston assembly in the silencer such that it can adequately decouple the inertial resistance of the silencer from the weapon? If you do that, and it still doesn't work correctly, my opinion would be to contact Rugged for suggestions. Recoil spring assembly modification may be performed but I would hesitate to do that without the first step of piston assembly maintenance. Jay PEW Science Yep, perfectly cleaned piston and cage (the entire suppressor is brand new), and the piston was lubed with white lithium grease. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 7:26:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, perfectly cleaned piston and cage (the entire suppressor is brand new), and the piston was lubed with white lithium grease. Roger that! Tried any factory loads yet as a baseline? Jay PEW Science |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 8:06:01 PM EDT
[#7]
I could be that both the gun and the can need a little wearing in.
One of my diagnostician rules is never change two variables at once (actually you can with design of experiments methods but that’s billable hours). Often trying two or more new and critical things at once (new ammo, new suppressor, and new optic at once for instance) tempts the failure mode gnomes into action. A big crew of observers just about guarantees some weirdness. A weak recoil spring could fail to do its main job of stripping a new round and returning the slide to battery. Not likely on a seldom shot pistol. I’d guess the loads are a little weak and slide rearward motion isn’t vigorous enough. If that’s the case then both a weaker magazine spring and weaker recoil spring might “fix” it but would be creating a gun tuned for suppressor only use. ETA: just looked up load data on Hodgdon’s site and those seem reasonable. Starting with factory ammo is probably a useful data point. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 9:41:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Roger that! Tried any factory loads yet as a baseline? Jay PEW Science Quote HistoryQuoted: Roger that! Tried any factory loads yet as a baseline? Jay PEW Science Not yet, .45 isn’t really available locally and I don’t want to dip into my stockpile unless all else fails. I can replicate nearly any load anyhow. Quoted: I could be that both the gun and the can need a little wearing in. One of my diagnostician rules is never change two variables at once (actually you can with design of experiments methods but that’s billable hours). Often trying two or more new and critical things at once (new ammo, new suppressor, and new optic at once for instance) tempts the failure mode gnomes into action. A big crew of observers just about guarantees some weirdness. A weak recoil spring could fail to do its main job of stripping a new round and returning the slide to battery. Not likely on a seldom shot pistol. I’d guess the loads are a little weak and slide rearward motion isn’t vigorous enough. If that’s the case then both a weaker magazine spring and weaker recoil spring might “fix” it but would be creating a gun tuned for suppressor only use. ETA: just looked up load data on Hodgdon’s site and those seem reasonable. Starting with factory ammo is probably a useful data point. I did buy the host used so it is possible that the RSA is due for a replacement. Yet the gun is 99%, nearly mint, so I doubt it was shot much. My loads seemed right within the right range, 4.8gr being a touch on the weak side and 5.2gr being a bit hot, thus why I settled on 5.0gr initially as a larger batch just to try out the new setup. I was expecting perhaps a slight variation in perceived decibels to my ear, but not malfunctions like this. I did think maybe it needs to be broken in, but it’s not like this is one or two malfunctions out of 100. It’s a 30-40% failure rate that’s effectively preventing shooting this. In the meantime I’ll work up smaller batches on the further end of hot loads and test them with the OEM standard capacity 8rd mags. Thanks again all. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 10:10:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Cool. Keep us updated, sir!
Jay PEW Science |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 10:23:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Looks like a feed angle issue, the weight of the can causing the ass end of the barrel to ride the underside of the slide rather than being "loose" and cooperating with the incoming round and then being "picked up" as the slide returns to battery as in normal, unsuppressed operation.
Had the same issue trying to get an RP45 to run reliably with a can, ultimately had to take some meat off the barrel at the top of the feed ramp so the nose of the round was further into the chamber before the back of the case tries to slide up the breech face. Just be careful if you do that, you don't want to get into the area of the chamber that supports the case at the front of the web |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 1:12:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Have you tried different mags? I know you said you lubed the piston; was the firearm clean and lubricated as well? Factory ammo is recommended over hand loads. You could go with a lighter recoil spring.
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Posted: 4/5/2022 3:15:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Data point of one here, but my P220 combat didn’t run well with an octane 45 yet ran flawlessly with an Osprey 45.
The only notable difference was that high back pressure vs low back pressure of the 2 cans -Mike |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 3:19:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Yeah I'd just clean and lube the gun and try different mags and ammo.
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Posted: 4/5/2022 9:51:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Thanks all. Busy workweek here but I expect to be able to hit the range this weekend and will share my findings then.
Quote HistoryQuoted: Data point of one here, but my P220 combat didn’t run well with an octane 45 yet ran flawlessly with an Osprey 45. The only notable difference was that high back pressure vs low back pressure of the 2 cans -Mike I’ve experienced this with my 9mm Steyr L9A1. It would not run with my Octane 9 or Mystic, but has ran flawlessly with my lighter Tirant 9. Unfortunately there are no other RSA weights available and trying different loads didn’t help, but fortunately I have multiple 9mm suppressors to choose from. Not so in .45, so if this turns out to be an inherent host/suppressor issue that I can’t resolve that will succckkk. |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 3:39:38 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Data point of one here, but my P220 combat didn’t run well with an octane 45 yet ran flawlessly with an Osprey 45. The only notable difference was that high back pressure vs low back pressure of the 2 cans -Mike Have the same two cans and I had a P220 Nightmare factory threaded. It ran better with an Osprey, but far from perfect. I attributed it to the Osprey being lighter. I tried everything including recoil spring weights. I have heard of many others having issues with P220 and cans. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 9:10:04 PM EDT
[#16]
 I would try a regular 8 round mag. Also, what oal are your handloads at? I found they need to be on the shorter side for a P220 magazine, otherwise they will hang up in the mag. Mine runs fine with an octane 45. I just picked up an obsidian, haven't shot it yet though. I'd also try the obsidian in short mode as well. Did it run with the same loads without the suppressor? Again, make sure the oal is good. I think mine are around 1.23ish. I mostly run hollow points, but 1.25" would hang up in the magazine. I was also running mine in the +p range. 230gr V-Crown using 8.0gr Vectan BA9 gives 1000fps 185gr Sierra Sportsmaster using 9.5gr Shooters World Auto (AA#5) gives 1020fps |
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Posted: 4/9/2022 6:06:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Good news and bad news - I believe I’ve pinpointed the issue but it is the least desirable problem. I think the Obsidian 45 in long configuration is too heavy for the P220. I tried increasing my loads, decreasing the OAL (I was seating to 1.27” which does seem too long for a P220 mag) and swapping mags…the malfunctions continued. When I switched the Obsidian 45 to short configuration the malfunctions ceased regardless of the load, OAL or mags. It ran perfectly.
So where to go from here? I’m willing to play with recoil springs, do I go weaker or stronger? I’d really prefer to run this setup with the Obsidian in long configuration as it’s noticeably quieter. Thanks all |
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Posted: 4/10/2022 12:49:14 AM EDT
[#18]
You're probably gonna have to throat the barrel. I know that's not what you want to hear, but that's the only way I've resolved this type of feeding issue on Browning system short recoil guns that were disagreeable to the weight of a can.
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Posted: 4/10/2022 3:17:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're probably gonna have to throat the barrel. I know that's not what you want to hear, but that's the only way I've resolved this type of feeding issue on Browning system short recoil guns that were disagreeable to the weight of a can. Not saying you’re wrong, and I do appreciate your input esp. since it’s this specific host and suppressor, but before I make permanent modifications I’ll play with spring weights. I’m unsure whether to go up or down a few lbs though. Factory weight appears to be 20lbs. |
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Posted: 5/19/2022 7:58:35 PM EDT
[#20]
So I tried a new standard factory weight Sig recoil spring…same problems. Rugged recommended a reduced rate spring next. I see 14, 15, 16 and 18lbs. Any suggestions?
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Posted: 6/15/2022 10:38:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I tried a new standard factory weight Sig recoil spring…same problems. Rugged recommended a reduced rate spring next. I see 14, 15, 16 and 18lbs. Any suggestions? Wanted to try bumping this once more before ordering, planning to try an 18lb spring. |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 3:58:03 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wanted to try bumping this once more before ordering, planning to try an 18lb spring. What is the stock rate spring? if rugged recommend a reduced rate wouldn’t you want something on the lower end? |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 8:43:37 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is the stock rate spring? if rugged recommend a reduced rate wouldn’t you want something on the lower end? Stock is 20lbs. Figured I’d work my way down starting with 18lbs. |
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Posted: 7/5/2022 10:39:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Update - the 18lb reduced rate recoil spring did not work. While it did seem to resolve the earlier described issues, it would also result in the slide not fully closing. So it’s not a solution.
At this point I’m probably going to give up on getting this to reliably function in long configuration. I’ll return my P220 to factory configuration and run the Obsidian .45 in short length which seemed to run reliably during earlier testing. |
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Posted: 7/6/2022 2:46:58 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Update - the 18lb reduced rate recoil spring did not work. While it did seem to resolve the earlier described issues, it would also result in the slide not fully closing. So it’s not a solution. At this point I’m probably going to give up on getting this to reliably function in long configuration. I’ll return my P220 to factory configuration and run the Obsidian .45 in short length which seemed to run reliably during earlier testing. Dang, that sucks...yeah the obsidian is a bit chonky |
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Posted: 7/6/2022 2:53:38 AM EDT
[#26]
Try a weaker mag spring.
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Posted: 7/11/2022 7:47:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Try a weaker mag spring. Clever idea. All of the reduced mag springs on Wolff’s website are for 7rd mags though…I have 8 and 10. Heck maybe I’ll try one of the 8rd springs in the 10rd mag I have. Honestly though at this point I’m really more inclined to run it in short configuration, I hate making modifications to a host to get it to run suppressed when the modifications may make it malfunction unsurppressed. |
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Posted: 7/19/2022 10:53:18 PM EDT
[#28]
 I think your loads are a little soft, but that shouldn't cause what you are experiencing. I shoot 5.5/5.7 with jacketed 230 grain XTP's at 900 ft/sec in above Sig 220 pistol. |
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