User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 9:31:51 AM EDT
[#1]
I agree OP. I was on active duty during transitional times and say get both. One piece of kit is seldom if ever going to be the best option for all scenarios.
We currently are vehicle centric and that may not alway be the cast. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 9:46:07 AM EDT
[#2]
I tend to agree with you. Things go in cycles. Right now all the emphasis is on CQB/square range speed.
I've been working in a modernized LCE setup recently to fill that role. I posted it awhile back in the first line thread since it is a belt rig even though it's not really a traditional first line. I'll post some pics here since this is where it really fits.  I really wish I'd have put together one of these rigs while I was in Afghanistan. Humping the mountains with everything chest mounted sucked. I think belt and suspenders would have been much easier on my back. It would have made an even bigger difference as an automatic rifleman. 600 rounds on your chest along with night vision, grenades, and IFAK was dumb.  One tip is to make sure it interfaces well with your ruck if you're using one. I like ALICE packs for a few reasons but one is that they are short backed and can easily ride above a belt without sticking up too high. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 10:12:17 AM EDT
[#3]
Just my opinion, but I think that the belt & suspenders rig is the best way to go. I've always liked the UK PLCE system.
I've thought about building a modern MOLLE belt & suspenders rig, but I haven't had much spare cash lately to do so. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 10:46:38 AM EDT
[#4]
I don't have a PLCE set but would love to try one out. Agree completely about short rucks being the way to go with belt rigs. I also prefer the Alice because the external frame gives airflow to the back, and I sweat a lot. Cost was one reason I went with the LC-2 instead of a newer Molle rig, but it it supremely comfortable under load. I think I'm about $50 in minus the BDS buttback. Being able to carry 9-12 mags, 2 canteens, and supplies for 48 hours without needing a pack is nice for overnight trips with minimal baggage.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 10:55:38 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparky-kb: I tend to agree with you. Things go in cycles. Right now all the emphasis is on CQB/square range speed. I've been working in a modernized LCE setup recently to fill that role. I posted it awhile back in the first line thread since it is a belt rig even though it's not really a traditional first line. I'll post some pics here since this is where it really fits. https://i.imgur.com/VpHhrL4.jpg I really wish I'd have put together one of these rigs while I was in Afghanistan. Humping the mountains with everything chest mounted sucked. I think belt and suspenders would have been much easier on my back. It would have made an even bigger difference as an automatic rifleman. 600 rounds on your chest along with night vision, grenades, and IFAK was dumb. One tip is to make sure it interfaces well with your ruck if you're using one. I like ALICE packs for a few reasons but one is that they are short backed and can easily ride above a belt without sticking up too high. What harness is that? The buttpack looks like SOE gear, but I dont recognize the 6-point harness. The Y suspenders on mine just have 4 points, but as the fasteners break I'm replacing with paracord and 100mph tape. H suspenders seem to distribute the weight better, and using 6 connection points would probably be even better... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 11:16:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rifleman_556: What harness is that? The buttpack looks like SOE gear, but I dont recognize the 6-point harness. The Y suspenders on mine just have 4 points, but as the fasteners break I'm replacing with paracord and 100mph tape. H suspenders seem to distribute the weight better, and using 6 connection points would probably be even better... The buttpack and harness are made by Mayflower/Velocity Systems. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 11:17:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Here's most of my new H gear setup. I had previously used an MLCS war belt & Y suspenders for a similar rig to carry recon stuff like binos and comms but I think I finally stripped it down, I'll look in my storage later. I took the inner belt out of this one to use for something else but you need a duty belt for the LW H harness, it doesn't include one.
All eagle ind: lightweight H-harness M4 pouch SOF med pouch V2 MOLLE radio ruck Canteen pouch M4 pouch This fits over my Crye JPC super nicely and let's me add an extra 4 mags (with 2 or 3 already in the JPC flap), a much more substantial IFAK, binoculars in the canteen pouch, snivel gear in the radio ruck pouch, and if I want to carry more substantial comms/antennas while still being able to dump it all while static at a recce site or if I need to really run  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 11:26:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparky-kb: The buttpack and harness are made by Mayflower/Velocity Systems. Ah, got it. Their Jungle Kit looked impressive from what I saw. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 12:53:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blackghost: All eagle ind: lightweight H-harness M4 pouch SOF med pouch V2 MOLLE radio ruck Canteen pouch M4 pouch This fits over my Crye JPC super nicely and let's me add an extra 4 mags (with 2 or 3 already in the JPC flap), a much more substantial IFAK, binoculars in the canteen pouch, snivel gear in the radio ruck pouch, and if I want to carry more substantial comms/antennas while still being able to dump it all while static at a recce site or if I need to really runhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/40739/IMG_20200508_105737153_jpg-1406548.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blackghost: All eagle ind: lightweight H-harness M4 pouch SOF med pouch V2 MOLLE radio ruck Canteen pouch M4 pouch This fits over my Crye JPC super nicely and let's me add an extra 4 mags (with 2 or 3 already in the JPC flap), a much more substantial IFAK, binoculars in the canteen pouch, snivel gear in the radio ruck pouch, and if I want to carry more substantial comms/antennas while still being able to dump it all while static at a recce site or if I need to really runhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/40739/IMG_20200508_105737153_jpg-1406548.JPG That Eagle lightweight H Harness was a serious contender while I was deciding what to get. I even thought about attaching that radio pack! Looks like a good setup to me  Originally Posted By Rifleman_556: Ah, got it. Their Jungle Kit looked impressive from what I saw. Yeah, I'd love to have their full jungle kit but didn't want to put that much money into it. I probably spent half of what their full kit costs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 1:07:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Yeah the full kit's price was
 Scalability for armor is another reason to wear belt kits instead of chest rigs. The Tactical Tailor Fight Lite Universal Mag pouch seems to be like a modernized Alice ammo pouch without the divider or the wings. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 1:19:55 PM EDT
[#11]
How do the H harnesses compare? I'm 6' 3" and need an XLT shirt, so some come up too short since I wear my LBE low. I looked at Eagle, Velocity, and BDS and don't see too much difference...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 4:20:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rifleman_556: How do the H harnesses compare? I'm 6' 3" and need an XLT shirt, so some come up too short since I wear my LBE low. I looked at Eagle, Velocity, and BDS and don't see too much difference... Can't speak for the others but the Mayflower H harness is pretty adjustable. I'm 6 foot 3 or 4 (can't remember ) and 190ish lbs and you can see there's still quite a bit of adjustment left in the straps. I wear it just a bit lower than the waist of my pants.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 5:52:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparky-kb: Can't speak for the others but the Mayflower H harness is pretty adjustable. I'm 6 foot 3 or 4 (can't remember ) and 190ish lbs and you can see there's still quite a bit of adjustment left in the straps. I wear it just a bit lower than the waist of my pants.Awesome! In that case I think my next setup will probably use the Mayflower straps, 3 Fight Light Universal Mag pouches for 9x 5.56 or 6x 7.62 mags, 2 zipper utility pouches for canteens, and reuse the BDS buttpack. Have to wait awhile as the wallet’s still recovering from the ammo bought just before this panic started. Edit: uh oh, can someone tell me what I did to cause the green line to appear atop the post directly above mine? Must have hit something accidentally 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 7:09:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparky-kb: I tend to agree with you. Things go in cycles. Right now all the emphasis is on CQB/square range speed. I've been working in a modernized LCE setup recently to fill that role. I posted it awhile back in the first line thread since it is a belt rig even though it's not really a traditional first line. I'll post some pics here since this is where it really fits. https://i.imgur.com/VpHhrL4.jpg I really wish I'd have put together one of these rigs while I was in Afghanistan. Humping the mountains with everything chest mounted sucked. I think belt and suspenders would have been much easier on my back. It would have made an even bigger difference as an automatic rifleman. 600 rounds on your chest along with night vision, grenades, and IFAK was dumb. One tip is to make sure it interfaces well with your ruck if you're using one. I like ALICE packs for a few reasons but one is that they are short backed and can easily ride above a belt without sticking up too high. I heart that so fucking much. I was issued the Y harness and ALICE stuff in the early 90s. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2020 9:56:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcw107: I heart that so fucking much. I was issued the Y harness and ALICE stuff in the early 90s. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcw107: Originally Posted By sparky-kb: I tend to agree with you. Things go in cycles. Right now all the emphasis is on CQB/square range speed. I've been working in a modernized LCE setup recently to fill that role. I posted it awhile back in the first line thread since it is a belt rig even though it's not really a traditional first line. I'll post some pics here since this is where it really fits. https://i.imgur.com/VpHhrL4.jpg I really wish I'd have put together one of these rigs while I was in Afghanistan. Humping the mountains with everything chest mounted sucked. I think belt and suspenders would have been much easier on my back. It would have made an even bigger difference as an automatic rifleman. 600 rounds on your chest along with night vision, grenades, and IFAK was dumb. One tip is to make sure it interfaces well with your ruck if you're using one. I like ALICE packs for a few reasons but one is that they are short backed and can easily ride above a belt without sticking up too high. I heart that so fucking much. I was issued the Y harness and ALICE stuff in the early 90s. Thanks! I had an ALICE rig as a kid that I used camping and messing around in the woods and also was issued that stuff during OSUT at Benning in 05. The 10th Mountain line units had switched to MOLLE by the time I got there though. Well, we still used ALICE packs but MOLLE for everything else. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 5:46:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Scientific fact: as studied by US carrying items on your hips and thighs gives you less fatigue and is more efficient. Even the fireman's carry of a person have been superseded by dragging using strength from your thigh muscles.
My unpopular opinions: -Alice was never intended as a patrol rig, as in its original incarnation it was meant to carry only fighting items. 6 mags, 4 grenades, bandage, canteen, entrenching tool, bayonet. The rest would go inside the medium pack...this was opposite from the earlier m1956 and m1967 webbing that had the buttpack with one day supplies. Alice never had a issue buttpack until the 1988 "field pack, training" -mayflower material are outstanding but it's design is basically an overloaded Alice with its shortcomings. You want a functional patrol rig? Check the British. You want pouches fully supported by a large belt pad, no pouches on your front so you lay prone easily and take a knee without problems. Your pouches start at 3 and 9 o clock on your body. You'd want a wide and thin harness yoke for support and you want the pouches tight next to each other, tightened down altogether with elastic cord to prevent content rattle. A solid mass. And you want a short pack ideally sized to rest over you back pouches, worn without a waist belt. You gain in comfort and ventilation, you also gain bulkiness and the fact that when you ditch the pack you still have the weight of a day worth of items that you can't ditch should you cache packs for a quick walkaround-recon-assault. This is a 2003 trial load carrying systems for the marines that was meant to replace molle vest, to exploit the strength of thigs and hips by attaching large packs to it. Adapted from a civilian hiking rig.   |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 8:59:02 AM EDT
[#17]
While I agree with most of the above, especially about the short ruck and not putting anything past 9:30 and 2:30 on the belt, IMO it’s better to have a light 1 day load on your LBE at all times. Now if we consider military units that operate in large numbers with conventional resupply, or those that conduct short snatch missions with a QRF, then the 1 day load becomes unnecessary. Looking at it from a non military viewpoint, as civilians we operate without resupply or QRF. If SHTF you will need to recon your immediate area to be aware of any threats, and a simple 1 hour walk could become an overnight patrol...
How much weight does a “light” 1 day load add? This varies by person, operation, and environment, but when you add in a flashlight, poncho, and a couple meal replacement bars on top of 6/9/12 mags, 2 canteens, knife, compass, and IFAK, is it that much? Anyway, I do think the Brits have it right about all pouches being even with the belt; makes for a much nicer experience with a ruck. Whether the belt is a wide, padded one worn tight or a loose, thin one will also vary by user. I wear my LBE barely even with my belt, sometimes a little lower, with the belt loose enough to allow me to put on a BDU top over it, but a tighter belt and tying all the pouches together would make for less bounce. My 41” waist allows me to have 3 triple mag pouches, a pistol, 2 canteens, and a buttpack between 2:30 and 9:30 on my belt, and this weighs around 20lb fully loaded (I think). |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 9:30:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By joeviterbo: Scientific fact: as studied by US carrying items on your hips and thighs gives you less fatigue and is more efficient. Even the fireman's carry of a person have been superseded by dragging using strength from your thigh muscles. My unpopular opinions: -Alice was never intended as a patrol rig, as in its original incarnation it was meant to carry only fighting items. 6 mags, 4 grenades, bandage, canteen, entrenching tool, bayonet. The rest would go inside the medium pack...this was opposite from the earlier m1956 and m1967 webbing that had the buttpack with one day supplies. Alice never had a issue buttpack until the 1988 "field pack, training" -mayflower material are outstanding but it's design is basically an overloaded Alice with its shortcomings. You want a functional patrol rig? Check the British. You want pouches fully supported by a large belt pad, no pouches on your front so you lay prone easily and take a knee without problems. Your pouches start at 3 and 9 o clock on your body. You'd want a wide and thin harness yoke for support and you want the pouches tight next to each other, tightened down altogether with elastic cord to prevent content rattle. A solid mass. And you want a short pack ideally sized to rest over you back pouches, worn without a waist belt. You gain in comfort and ventilation, you also gain bulkiness and the fact that when you ditch the pack you still have the weight of a day worth of items that you can't ditch should you cache packs for a quick walkaround-recon-assault. This is a 2003 trial load carrying systems for the marines that was meant to replace molle vest, to exploit the strength of thigs and hips by attaching large packs to it. Adapted from a civilian hiking rig. https://images2.imgbox.com/fd/71/uBtDec6n_o.jpg https://images2.imgbox.com/da/9e/ZUONI2Xb_o.jpg I remember that USMC thigh rig. Brigade Quartermaster used to sell it. I can't remember what it was called though, Raptor maybe? I think the problem with it is that nobody really likes having stuff attached to their thighs. Thigh sub loads are annoying enough, I couldn't imagine having actual packs attached there. Even if it was found to be the optimal way to carry weight I'd imagine there's a reason it never took off and that basically no military forces use a system like it. I like the British stuff and considered buying the PLCE system for awhile. I did take some of the other things you mention into consideration while putting mine together though. My mag pouches start barely past 3 and 9 o'clock but not far enough to impede going prone. They are also far enough back that they don't get in the way of your thigh when taking a knee. I didn't feel the need to add a bungee cord since each 2 mag pouch has a thick elastic loop surrounding it. Plus there's just not much room for rattling in them. The mayflower straps are wide enough and padded where needed (padding can be removed to wear under a vest if one so chooses). The belt I chose is also padded and tight enough to transfer weight to the hips. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:40:42 AM EDT
[#19]
I like your rig, I would have chosen a wider belt that shrouds the pouches completely. It is a benefit in my opinion, but it's a style that I don't think exists in the US.
Years back we wouldn't even use chest rigs that would leave the bottom of pouches unsupported (no mav) This is a patrol harness worn by a buddy of mine that's still active duty. Without armor, worn with smock and ruck. If something looks misplaced keep in mind there may be SOPs involved.  https://images2.imgbox.com/51/4e/YTtgyvNa_o.jpg Base is Tasmanian tiger modular rig, which has tube closure and looks cool. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:50:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By joeviterbo: Scientific fact: as studied by US carrying items on your hips and thighs gives you less fatigue and is more efficient. Even the fireman's carry of a person have been superseded by dragging using strength from your thigh muscles. This is NOT a "scientific fact" - it is wrong. Weight carried on your thighs requires more energy to move over a distance compared to when it is carried closer to the midline. It is the same idea as car and bike guys know about having lighter wheels and tires as it is less rotational mass as heavier wheels/tires rob you of horsepower to the ground. Test this yourself and get those ankle weights from the 1980's and put them on your ankle and walk, move them up to below your knee and do it again. Then above your knee and on your thigh then onto your hips. Which way was easier to carry the weight? The time it was on your hips was the easiest / most efficient whereas the ankle (most distal) was the most difficult . The strength of the thigh muscle does not mean that it is efficient in carrying weight on your thigh itself, that's not how biomechanics works. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:55:59 AM EDT
[#21]
I have always been a big fan of the Brit-style belt kit. Ever since we cross-trained with the Brits I have been trying to make some kind of PLCE type system that works with my rucksack.
Then it was OBE by the G-WOT, but now with re-newed interest in jungle and artic warfare, we are seeing lots of folks re-visit it. The kicker for me was to get a belt kit with all pouches flush with the top of the belt (no canteen caps sticking up), and getting a rucksack that integrated with it. Here is my boss on patrol with a good illustration of what I'm talking about.  Notice modified V/M mag pouches, and Jay Jay's sustainment/canteen pouches, all sitting flush with top of the belt. And the ruck sitting nicely on the shelf it provides. I spent most of last year doing T&E on all sorts of belt kit designs, and came back around to the classic PLCE set-up; 6-8" hippo belt, 6-point shoulder harness, and flush-mounted pouches. I think the point Joe was trying to make is that weight is better supported by the hips rather than the shoulders, for long distance rucking. The jarhead sub-loads w/ leg straps was a one-off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 11:03:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Here' s another shot of a belt kit which illustrates how the pouches all sit flush with the belt top. Modified Jay Jay's yoke and hippo belt, prototype pouch designs.
 I found the 6-point harness really distributes the weight much better, especially with a rucksack. With a good hippo belt, cinched tight around the waist, a belt on the ruck really isn't required for most situations. This is something I don't think most folks have tried, this side of the pound; but it works. Notice on the Jay Jay's kit, the padding is open cell nylon mesh, which pads but does not retain water; brilliant design for hot, tropical environments. I think you can argue and discuss this stuff 'til the cows come home, but BA and chest harnesses out in the "J" for weeks at a time, is a miserable experience. My boss has a mate who is helping out with instruction at their jungle warfare center. Every line Bn must re-qual on an annual basis. Different units show up with different kit. Some try and retain their PC's, chest rigs, gun belts, etc. Some show up in classic legacy belt order. By the end of their time there, the consensus is the classic jungle belt kit is the optimum set up for this environment. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 11:30:28 AM EDT
[#23]
Gear (and warfare) has changed a lot since before 9/11. It's interesting to see things start to come full circle.
The ALICE stuff of the 90s was serviceable with some mods. I hated the Y-harness and always had some type of H-harness instead (Blackhawk! made a decent one). Typically I had 4 ammo pouches, 2 canteens, a buttpack, a first aid pouch, and a knife. I wore my shit low and loose to accommodate my rucksack (I preferred the CFP90 over the lg ALICE pack) and to fit under the parachute harness better. My current setup sits much higher and doesn't utilize a buttpack. It's setup to be pack-friendly (i.e. naked in the back) and to just carry a basic "fighting" load. Anything extra for "patrolling" (extra layers, extra comms, pogie bait, extra medical, etc.) goes in a patrol pack. Sustainment stuff (shelter, sleeping bags, etc.) goes in a rucksack.  Attached FileThe particulars: Eagle Industries H-Harness Eagle Industries double mag pouches Eagle Industries Icom radio pouch Eagle Industries canteen pouches Tactical Tailor GP pouches (one for IFAK, the other for utility) Ranger green is best green.... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 11:31:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right now PCs, chest rigs, and tac vests are all the rage, but (IMHO) belt rigs still win out over those in certain situations. For LRRP-type recon, operations in hot and humid areas, and all other non-vehicular and non-urban missions where being out for 24-48 hours is a possibility, the belt rigs seem to offer more load-carrying capacity and comfort when set up properly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Right now PCs, chest rigs, and tac vests are all the rage, but (IMHO) belt rigs still win out over those in certain situations. For LRRP-type recon, operations in hot and humid areas, and all other non-vehicular and non-urban missions where being out for 24-48 hours is a possibility, the belt rigs seem to offer more load-carrying capacity and comfort when set up properly. You can go ahead and condense this entire point into whether there is a requirement or need to wear armor or not. It isn't a popularity contest. If the need for armor exists, the PC/armor wins by default. People dont wear PCs over belt rigs for any reason other than the fact that they need armor protection. Of course the belt is more comfortable. Originally Posted By joeviterbo: Scientific fact: as studied by US carrying items on your hips and thighs gives you less fatigue and is more efficient. Even the fireman's carry of a person have been superseded by dragging using strength from your thigh muscles. It is certainly correct that it is easier to carry patrol gear on the hips. If we had not transitioned to body armor we would definitely be using that. The main problem is the large general issue armor systems dont make it easy to carry a lot of gear on your belt, and as mentioned before you then have to ensure your pack will still fit right on top of it and not push your belt under your ass. I have an esstac bush boar rig which is awesome by itself, but awkward over a plate carrier and downright absurdly bulky over an IBA/IOTV. I've been lucky enough to have been in a plate carrier from about 2009 on, but prior to that I was deploying in an IBA/IOTV. The difference with regard to the ability to load a belt and suspender setup is huge. With a PC I have created belt setups including heavy demo/breacher belts, grenade launcher/grenade belts, and even a metal detector/RSP rig. The benefit of a heavy belt rig in conjunction with a PC is the ability to carry additional specialized equipment that I dont have to remain committed to. Here are some of my previous heavy belt setups, while wearing armor. I have to reiterate though, I really have to be very specific with wearing these and make sure that I actually need them for whatever my mission is, because they absolutely do detract significantly from overall mobility: Demo/breaching rig from around 2010   Grenade launcher rig, 2014 or so   Metal detector/ IED RSP rig  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 11:45:45 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gurthy: Gear (and warfare) has changed a lot since before 9/11. It's interesting to see things start to come full circle. I really don't see much going circular. These rigs never really went away or came back. Guys that dont use armor use them just as they did before armor was the standard. If anything the trend is moving towards smaller armor, augmented by smaller belt setups since the realization actually stuck institutionally that the lack of mobility even with a modern smaller/lighter armor setup is a huge negative regardless of mission. The LBV and belt harness rig thing did hang around with armor setups for a while in the GWOT because it was so vehicle-centric and guys could barely fit in vehicles with armor as is, so they resorted to rigs they could take off and hang in the turret or next to them in the drivers seat. Once Afghanistan shifted into being the priority most of that went away as guys were walking a lot more. Belts and PC mounted kit became smaller. Most people still working in fields that use this stuff pretty much agree, LBV or heavy belt rig without armor, minimalist armor augmented by minimalist belt and everything else in a pack when you have to wear armor. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 1:07:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can go ahead and condense this entire point into whether there is a requirement or need to wear armor or not. It isn't a popularity contest. If the need for armor exists, the PC/armor wins by default. People dont wear PCs over belt rigs for any reason other than the fact that they need armor protection. Of course the belt is more comfortable.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 2:36:21 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryMy back aches for you |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 3:46:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blackghost: My back aches for you Ive never had an issue with carrying a CMD like that, that thing is like 5lbs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 5:53:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The main problem is the large general issue armor systems dont make it easy to carry a lot of gear on your belt, and as mentioned before you then have to ensure your pack will still fit right on top of it and not push your belt under your ass. I have an esstac bush boar rig which is awesome by itself, but awkward over a plate carrier and downright absurdly bulky over an IBA/IOTV. I've been lucky enough to have been in a plate carrier from about 2009 on, but prior to that I was deploying in an IBA/IOTV. The difference with regard to the ability to load a belt and suspender setup is huge. With a PC I have created belt setups including heavy demo/breacher belts, grenade launcher/grenade belts, and even a metal detector/RSP rig. The benefit of a heavy belt rig in conjunction with a PC is the ability to carry additional specialized equipment that I dont have to remain committed to. First unit I was issued an M1968 Flak Vest and never wore it, third unit I was issued the PASGT vest, but first year we only wore it (as 11C Mortars) was during misfire procedures on 81mm; then during Balkans deployment, wore PASGT Vest and Helmet on guard duty on base perimeter but only kept them in the HMMWV during mounted patrols, no IED threat just rocks and bottles during our rotation. To go from that to Interceptor then IOTV fully armored as SOP had to have been Teh Sux. Berlin, we had exchanges with the Brits, would trade a Joe with them for a month or so, they kept their issued webbing and Bergen, and were issued an M16 Rifle, the Belt Order Rigs were nice, the Bergen the ultimate trade for item (behind DPM Smock), rode better than the LC-1/2, even Medium Ruck. Would use each others MOUT and other training areas from time to time just for something different. French, we would send Joes to the French Commando School up in Reinickendorf, our Platoon did Zodiac training with them once. I seem to remember they were using a blend of cotton canvas and Olive nylon "F1"? gear system, their ruck was even smaller than the Medium ALICE LC1/2 and not impressive at all. Edit: UK Eval of overburdened troops since 1868, there are some videos of their new Virtus system with artificial spine towards the bottom even pics of a reverse tactical wheelbarrow: https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/overburdened-infantry-soldier/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 5:56:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stoner63a: I often wondered what it was like being in an Infantry Bn during the transition from PASGT/ALICE/CFP-90 to Interceptor/MOLLE, when Command all of a sudden dropped another 26lbs (average-then 32lbs with ESBI sideplates) on the Grunt. I often wonder why you're still allowed here after taking payment from me twice for projects and delivering nothing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 6:03:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Interesting thread.
My initial thought is that gear is driven by the Mission. I can see where certain ALICE-like set-ups might be optimal, especially in hot/humid climates. Perhaps in some situations where fast-moving, "Light Infantry" might be preferable to "Heavy Infantry". If one was attracted to this "Pseudo-ALICE" path, there is probably plenty of MOLLE/PALS gear that will be suitable. I certainly would not advise using cotton M1956 gear. That water-logging stuff belongs to the collectors nowadays, not in the field. Having worn the GI pistol belt a bit, I strongly suggest some internal, closed cell foam padding for the belt. Good field expedients can employ sections of GI sleeping pads and some appropriate black wire ties. Will look for more responses, and ponder further. No expert, of course. Hell, many people here think I'm an idiot. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 6:06:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I often wonder why you're still allowed here after taking payment from me twice for projects and delivering nothing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I often wondered what it was like being in an Infantry Bn during the transition from PASGT/ALICE/CFP-90 to Interceptor/MOLLE, when Command all of a sudden dropped another 26lbs (average-then 32lbs with ESBI sideplates) on the Grunt. I often wonder why you're still allowed here after taking payment from me twice for projects and delivering nothing. Interesting. Can you (either one) be more explicit?. First I've heard of such a thing. Shocking, I'd say. Needs some cleaning-up, I'd say. Let's clear the air. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 6:47:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I often wonder why you're still allowed here after taking payment from me twice for projects and delivering nothing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I often wondered what it was like being in an Infantry Bn during the transition from PASGT/ALICE/CFP-90 to Interceptor/MOLLE, when Command all of a sudden dropped another 26lbs (average-then 32lbs with ESBI sideplates) on the Grunt. I often wonder why you're still allowed here after taking payment from me twice for projects and delivering nothing. You got your money back through PayPal didn't you? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 6:51:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stoner63a: You got your money back through PayPal didn't you? Yep, after filing a fraud claim, not because you gave it back. Never got the Crye pants back that I gave you for the barrel bags you never made. The bottom line is that you defrauded me twice and I dont understand how you are still posting on this website, much less in the gear forum still trying to shill your services. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 7:02:33 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, after filing a fraud claim, not because you gave it back. Never got the Crye pants back that I gave you for the barrel bags you never made. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 7:13:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stoner63a: I can't remember a pair of Crye Pants, I remember a Coyote to Multicam mesh helmet cover I made you. I'm not denying it I'm saying I can't remember, my last 15months in Colorado I was in really bad medical condition, I couldn't walk 8 feet to get to my bathroom and even worse If it is something outstanding I'm more than happy to make good on something I missed I had a helmet cover made. Then I personally delivered you a pair of Crye pants as partial payment for a set of molle barrel bags. You didnt make them, cited health issues, I was busy TDY so I let it go and then PCS moved. Then you contacted me via PM because of a post you saw here in the tactical forum about me wanting a rucksack frame panel, took my money, never delivered anything for months past the date you promised, then stopped communicating totally. I deployed without it and you would not return the money so I had to go through a fraud claim via paypal. Honestly I dont care about the pants. I have like 12 of them. However, you shouldnt be allowed to still be here pulling the same nonsense with other people. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 7:41:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a helmet cover made. Then I personally delivered you a pair of Crye pants as partial payment for a set of molle barrel bags. You didnt make them, cited health issues, I was busy TDY so I let it go and then PCS moved. Then you contacted me via PM because of a post you saw here in the tactical forum about me wanting a rucksack frame panel, took my money, never delivered anything for months past the date you promised, then stopped communicating totally. I deployed without it and you would not return the money so I had to go through a fraud claim via paypal. Honestly I dont care about the pants. I have like 12 of them. However, you shouldnt be allowed to still be here pulling the same nonsense with other people. Do what you feel you have to do. I think they only thing I've done areound here even in the past year, was offered to fix something for return shipping for a member who couldn't get LBT to warranty it. I can't do much with it anymore, leaning under the machine its just not worth the additional pain. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 8:05:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do what you feel you have to do. I think they only thing I've done areound here even in the past year, was offered to fix something for return shipping for a member who couldn't get LBT to warranty it. I can't do much with it anymore, leaning under the machine its just not worth the additional pain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had a helmet cover made. Then I personally delivered you a pair of Crye pants as partial payment for a set of molle barrel bags. You didnt make them, cited health issues, I was busy TDY so I let it go and then PCS moved. Then you contacted me via PM because of a post you saw here in the tactical forum about me wanting a rucksack frame panel, took my money, never delivered anything for months past the date you promised, then stopped communicating totally. I deployed without it and you would not return the money so I had to go through a fraud claim via paypal. Honestly I dont care about the pants. I have like 12 of them. However, you shouldnt be allowed to still be here pulling the same nonsense with other people. Do what you feel you have to do. I think they only thing I've done areound here even in the past year, was offered to fix something for return shipping for a member who couldn't get LBT to warranty it. I can't do much with it anymore, leaning under the machine its just not worth the additional pain. If I was a Mod/Staff here, I'd advise both folks to take the discussion to IM, and sort it out. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 8:24:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: If I was a Mod/Staff here, I'd advise both folks to take the discussion to IM, and sort it out. Yup, either take it to IM or start a Pit thread guys. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 8:25:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I was a Mod/Staff here, I'd advise both folks to take the discussion to IM, and sort it out. I sent him an IM my current contact info and what I remembered and asked him for help with the details, offered to make him whole before the above post. I can't even remember his real name. PayPal takes that money out of my account, I don't think he expects me to pay it back a second time. Combat Pants, there's a big difference between a pair of GI contract Multicam Combat Pants and genuine Crye Combat Pants. I don't remember owning a pair of Crye labelled combat pants, I know I have a few pairs of the GI contract Multicam Combat Pants. If he says they were genuine Crye then like I said I need further details and such. If I've made a mistake here i'm glad to help fix it. The last time I saw him in person I was in bad condition from spinal injury and it got much much worse by the week after. I was set up for a spinal cord neural stimulator through the VA, then there was problem with paperwork, that Veterans Choice referral expired and I had to start all over with the process that took another 14 months until I finally got the implant and could walk just enough to take care of myself again. Its not a situation that I just up and decided I was going to blow off somebody and not do shit. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 8:31:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: If I was a Mod/Staff here, I'd advise both folks to take the discussion to IM, and sort it out. Its already been moved to IM. Carry on. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 8:37:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its already been moved to IM. Carry on. Good. No longer my job, just suggesting an approach lest things get out of hand and attract the notice of the Mods/Staff. I hope things can be worked-out eventually. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 9:15:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Back on track here....
I have a PLCE set up that I somewhat bastardized. I like the utility pouches and yoke. I used four of the utility pouches, put them on the issue belt with the Brit attachment system. I then used some malice clips to attach the thin belt to an old padded belt I had laying around. Added some ammo pouches, a BFG Trauma Kit Now pouch, and a utility pouch. The nice thing about this set up is that I could actually carry enough gear for 72 hours. I’ll try and get pics tomorrow when I get home. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 9:27:34 PM EDT
[#44]
I think the utility of such a rig is having most of one's gear on one's hips, supported by suspenders, and one's body being free to ventilate. In sum, probably a good rig for the humid tropics.
Take note that rigs necessarily vary, due to both environment and other conditions. Thinking any particular rig is "ideal" is probably a mistake. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 9:53:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: I think the utility of such a rig is having most of one's gear on one's hips, supported by suspenders, and one's body being free to ventilate. In sum, probably a good rig for the humid tropics. Take note that rigs necessarily vary, due to both environment and other conditions. Thinking any particular rig is "ideal" is probably a mistake. Exactly. Some (not pointing any fingers) tend to dismiss belt rigs as “old and not useful” but it should still be considered as a viable option. For vehicles, one trick is just to unbuckle the belt, and pivot the whole rig into your lap. With practice, it’s pretty fast, but it’s still making the best of a bad situation. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:10:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: I think the utility of such a rig is having most of one's gear on one's hips, supported by suspenders, and one's body being free to ventilate. In sum, probably a good rig for the humid tropics. Take note that rigs necessarily vary, due to both environment and other conditions. Thinking any particular rig is "ideal" is probably a mistake. One of the lessons learned from one of the recent Army joint training exercises in the Pacific was that in a hot and humid environment loadout changes significantly. In this instance, within a conventional Army unit the level of risk acceptance does not exist to the point where they can operationally drop their armor, but the general issue IOTV, and most specifically its massive amount of soft armor, was contributing greatly to heat casualties and associated mobility issues with troops. It was one of the driving forces behind the new scalable armor system currently being put through acquisitions. SOF units have found that minimalist carriers and standalone plates (no soft armor to retain heat) can work in a jungle environment. The days where overt combat operations do not involve armor are pretty much over, however a simple plate hanger and external rig over it is not off the table. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:14:20 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly. Some (not pointing any fingers) tend to dismiss belt rigs as "old and not useful" but it should still be considered as a viable option. For vehicles, one trick is just to unbuckle the belt, and pivot the whole rig into your lap. With practice, it's pretty fast, but it's still making the best of a bad situation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think the utility of such a rig is having most of one's gear on one's hips, supported by suspenders, and one's body being free to ventilate. In sum, probably a good rig for the humid tropics. Take note that rigs necessarily vary, due to both environment and other conditions. Thinking any particular rig is "ideal" is probably a mistake. Exactly. Some (not pointing any fingers) tend to dismiss belt rigs as "old and not useful" but it should still be considered as a viable option. For vehicles, one trick is just to unbuckle the belt, and pivot the whole rig into your lap. With practice, it's pretty fast, but it's still making the best of a bad situation. Be advised that thinking outside the "norm" is considered heresy. Your agreement with my comments further taints you. You have been warned. That said, glad to have someone thinking outside the box posting. You will be condemed for doing so. Just sayin' |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:16:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rifleman_556: Exactly. Some (not pointing any fingers) tend to dismiss belt rigs as “old and not useful” but it should still be considered as a viable option. For vehicles, one trick is just to unbuckle the belt, and pivot the whole rig into your lap. With practice, it’s pretty fast, but it’s still making the best of a bad situation. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rifleman_556: Exactly. Some (not pointing any fingers) tend to dismiss belt rigs as “old and not useful” but it should still be considered as a viable option. For vehicles, one trick is just to unbuckle the belt, and pivot the whole rig into your lap. With practice, it’s pretty fast, but it’s still making the best of a bad situation. When im in a vehicle without armor simply unbuckling the belt and pulling both sides up works, I dont see the need to turn it sideways, especially if a pistol is mounted. I do this a lot when I am on OC/T duty and wearing just a belt rig and no armor. That way I simply step out and rebuckle, and theres nothing in my lap that can get jammed between me and the steering wheel. Its the same principle as a split front LBV, just open it up and let it hang to the sides when in a vehicle. While wearing armor all that goes out the window if you have suspenders on underneath the carrier. If im not wearing suspenders sometimes ill pull my belt off, sometimes I wont, depending on the size of the vehicle and my position in it. Originally Posted By raf: Be advised that thinking outside the "norm" is considered heresy. Your agreement with my comments further taints you. You have been warned. That said, glad to have someone thinking outside the box posting. You will be condemed for doing so. Just sayin' Now you are simply being ridiculous. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:30:58 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the lessons learned from one of the recent Army joint training exercises in the Pacific was that in a hot and humid environment loadout changes significantly. In this instance, within a conventional Army unit the level of risk acceptance does not exist to the point where they can operationally drop their armor, but the general issue IOTV, and most specifically its massive amount of soft armor, was contributing greatly to heat casualties and associated mobility issues with troops. It was one of the driving forces behind the new scalable armor system currently being put through acquisitions. SOF units have found that minimalist carriers and standalone plates (no soft armor to retain heat) can work in a jungle environment. The days where overt combat operations do not involve armor are pretty much over, however a simple plate hanger and external rig over it is not off the table. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think the utility of such a rig is having most of one's gear on one's hips, supported by suspenders, and one's body being free to ventilate. In sum, probably a good rig for the humid tropics. Take note that rigs necessarily vary, due to both environment and other conditions. Thinking any particular rig is "ideal" is probably a mistake. One of the lessons learned from one of the recent Army joint training exercises in the Pacific was that in a hot and humid environment loadout changes significantly. In this instance, within a conventional Army unit the level of risk acceptance does not exist to the point where they can operationally drop their armor, but the general issue IOTV, and most specifically its massive amount of soft armor, was contributing greatly to heat casualties and associated mobility issues with troops. It was one of the driving forces behind the new scalable armor system currently being put through acquisitions. SOF units have found that minimalist carriers and standalone plates (no soft armor to retain heat) can work in a jungle environment. The days where overt combat operations do not involve armor are pretty much over, however a simple plate hanger and external rig over it is not off the table. I respect your comments, and your experience. I also think that under extreme circumstances certain units might need to discard the "usual' equipment in order to accomplish their mission. That's been done in the recent past, IIRC What the casualty-averse Mil wants to see in future engagements, might change, under different circumstances. Nobody wants to see needless casualties. The current situation, with heavily-armored US troops, fully-supplied, is not likely for some future scenarios. Believing that things will always be as they are now is mistaken. IMHO, and no expert, we should train our troops to deploy in many different manners. Some well-supplied, and well-equipped, some deliberately given short-shrift during training. Doing so provides the opportunity for troops and commanders to encounter such situations, and learn form the experience. Doing so will save lives in the long run, I think. YMMV, of course. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2020 10:34:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When im in a vehicle without armor simply unbuckling the belt and pulling both sides up works, I dont see the need to turn it sideways, especially if a pistol is mounted. I do this a lot when I am on OC/T duty and wearing just a belt rig and no armor. That way I simply step out and rebuckle, and theres nothing in my lap that can get jammed between me and the steering wheel. Its the same principle as a split front LBV, just open it up and let it hang to the sides when in a vehicle. While wearing armor all that goes out the window if you have suspenders on underneath the carrier. If im not wearing suspenders sometimes ill pull my belt off, sometimes I wont, depending on the size of the vehicle and my position in it. Now you are simply being ridiculous. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Exactly. Some (not pointing any fingers) tend to dismiss belt rigs as "old and not useful" but it should still be considered as a viable option. For vehicles, one trick is just to unbuckle the belt, and pivot the whole rig into your lap. With practice, it's pretty fast, but it's still making the best of a bad situation. When im in a vehicle without armor simply unbuckling the belt and pulling both sides up works, I dont see the need to turn it sideways, especially if a pistol is mounted. I do this a lot when I am on OC/T duty and wearing just a belt rig and no armor. That way I simply step out and rebuckle, and theres nothing in my lap that can get jammed between me and the steering wheel. Its the same principle as a split front LBV, just open it up and let it hang to the sides when in a vehicle. While wearing armor all that goes out the window if you have suspenders on underneath the carrier. If im not wearing suspenders sometimes ill pull my belt off, sometimes I wont, depending on the size of the vehicle and my position in it. Quoted: Be advised that thinking outside the "norm" is considered heresy. Your agreement with my comments further taints you. You have been warned. That said, glad to have someone thinking outside the box posting. You will be condemed for doing so. Just sayin' Now you are simply being ridiculous. Perhaps. Maybe I'm simply tired of being called a jackass. It has occurred to me that I might actually be a jackass. Some here, and NOT saying YOU, whom I've come to respect, will never admit such. All I've done is fool around with all sorts of gear on the range, and done my best to clog it up with mud and freezing rain when the opportunity presented. I've never posed as an active Mil type. I have the utmost respect for people in the Mil. That said, my personal experiences might not coincide with theirs, and I respectfully submit my personal experiences to be considered along with Mil members. Let the reader decide what is best for them. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
