I have an AR lower I bought when I was living in California.  If I recall correctly, during the transfer, it was called a “rifle” on Form 4473 as the state only allows two classifications, rifle or pistol. “Other” was not an option.  It sat in the safe until I moved to Nevada, never been completed.  Now in NV, I finally have the time to complete it and decided to file a Form 1 on it as an SBR and recently got the stamp.

My question is, can I legally build it as a pistol first and later to be built into SBR?  My thinking is that once built into SBR, if I want to take it to other states, if it isn’t practical to file a Form 20 to take it across state lines, it would be nice to temporarily revert back to a pistol.

My concern is that it was classified originally as a “rifle” back in California, though it was never actually built.

Thanks!


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Two issues with this.

The first is being that if it was originally checked out as a rifle, you cannot turn it into a pistol.

The Second is that you can not turn a form 1'd SBR into a pistol. By submitting that form you have received permission to remanufacturer that firearm into a rifle, and firearms manufactured as rifles can never be turned into a pistol



EDIT: Never is always a strong word. a type 7 or 10 FFL can remanufacture a rifle back into a pistol however they have to report it on the AFMER. But again a lower cannot simultaneously be an SBR and a Pistol.

Yes.

What the 4473 said is meaningless.

Nothing you have said is true.

If you have never built the receiver you can build it to a pistol.  If you have built the receiver first as a pistol then stamp it, yes it can go back and forth for configuration purposes.

The Receiver left an FFL as a rifle, therefore on the bound book it is a rifle. I'm not familiar with Cali laws but if it requires the FFL to convert a lower ('other' in most states) into a rifle then its a rifle.

Not sure who told you the information you have, but I got mine from the two ATF agents that audited us this past year.

EDIT: If you don't believe me than it matters not to me

but to the OP I wouldn't take legal advice from a forum, talk to the people that matter
[email protected], [email protected], your lawyer, and your CLEO

I hate to have to tell you this, but those two ATF agents misinformed you.  An AR lower alone does not meet the federal definition of a "Rifle", and thus it is not, it is simply a Firearm frame or receiver.  And the firearm type checkbox on the 4473 does not designate or create what the item is, it's just a record keeping device.

While the Lower in its current configuration doesn't meet the definition, if that lower was built into a rifle, from then on it can not be converted into a pistol.
The way the ATF would check to see if it was every build into a rifle would be by running a trace on the firearm, upon reaching that FFL it would show IN THEIR RECORDS that is was a rifle. Thus creating a giant headache for the OP.

the OP also said that the lower in question is form 1'd, this creates another issue as I mentioned.

I think all stripped lowers are sent as rifles to Cali. Not sure if it’s a law in Cali or what.

Lowers are so damned cheap, build a pistol lower and be done with it. Jeezes, why risk legal trouble if someone interprets it the wrong way.

Your ATF agents advice isn’t universally correct. If I build a Form 1 SBR from a pistol (say a Glock 17 with a B&T bolt on stock/chassis) it returns to a Title 1 firearm whenever it isn’t in SBR configuration.  You don’t even have to notify the ATF if you permanently return it to a Title 1 firearm.    

In this case, if the firearm was erroneously recorded as a rifle when it physically left the store as an “other” then the California FFL lied on a federal form.  The manufacturer’s records would clearly show the item was a receiver, and the price on the receipt would support it wasn’t sold as a rifle.  

The receiver would have to be made first as a pistol when it was first made into a functioning firearm is the only requirement.  

Lowers are so cheap I’d keep it for a rifle in case one moved back to California.

I'd agree with everything else you said except for this.

There are two camps of think behind this
1. a pistol can be converted into a rifle and back to a pistol so logically this would appease that
2. converting the firearm (even once) into an SBR remanufacturers it into a rifle and a manufactured rifle cannot turn into a pistol

until there is a court case showing one is right and one is not, its up to interpretation and everyone will come to a different conclusion.



EDIT:This is the most recent email I can find however as you pointed out, ATF agents can be wrong

"Good morning Gene,

In case you haven’t received your answer yet…

Yes, you can sell it as a pistol. You’ll have to check with your state laws to see if you need to do anything to be lawful. You’ll also need to write a letter to the NFA Branch advising you are removing the stock, removing it from under the purview of the NFA, and selling the pistol. The letter will need to include your trust name, who you are to the trust, your address, the mfg, model, SN, and I’d include some type of contact information (email or phone number, in case they have any questions). Once a specialist reviews your request they will send you a letter advising it is no longer under the NFA purview and a regular pistol again. The letter can be sent to [email protected] or BATFE / NFA Branch, 344 Needy Rd, Martinsburg, WV 25405.

If you are selling it as a SBR: The transfer will have to be on a form 4, the form must be approved and you must have the approved stamp to transfer to the buyer at the same time as the SBR. If you are selling it to a person (an individual, trust, LLC, Co, etc) they must be in the same state as you. If you are selling it to a dealer who has both a active FFL and SOT licenses, you can sell it to them even if they are out of state.

Let me know if this helps or you have any other questions.

V/r,"

EDIT2:
At the same time this is in the NFA handbook

Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.
Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.

Then they could go back to the manufacturer where the FFL got the lower, and they would say it left as a receiver/frame.  Then the ATF could go back to the FFL and ask them to explain why they didn't record their manufacture of a complete rifle from a receiver.  But then again they probably wouldn't go that far, because as I stated, the checkbox on the 4473 is not a registration or designation of what can be done with the lower.  Just like if an FFL mistakenly checks the pistol box when transfering a complete long gun, it does not magically now make that rifle into a pistol.  All that matters is the real physical configuation history of the item, i.e., was it ever configured into a complete long gun in the past.


Not really, the approved Form 1 is just an authorization for the OP to make an NFA item.  He stated that he has not yet done so, so until the NFA is built, the bare receiver is still considered a Title I firearm and the NFA item referenced on the Form 1 does not, and has not ever existed.

Do you know if stripped lower have to be sent to Cali as rifles?



Until the NFA is built I'm I misinterpreting what the OP asked? he asked if he could go back and forth between an SBR and a pistol, I've already gave my argument for this senerio.

That is not the point, I do have several pistol lowers already.




If I recall correctly, before 2014 AR lowers can be sold as either pistol or rifle.  Then for 2015 they came up with more restrictions.  This one was bought well before that.




This stripped lower was never built into anything yet.  

My idea was to give myself as much flexibility as possible.  The end goal is an SBR, but in case I want the convenience of taking it to other states as a pistol, I want that option.  If building it into a pistol with a brace first, even for a moment and documenting it with pictures and dates, then converting it to a SBR, that would be worth my time.

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Just to throw this out there. You can always build it as an SBR then, if you need to travel and don't want to file a form 20, you can always slap a 16" upper on it and just have it be a regular rifle.

Not true. While California might classify an AR lower differently than other states or the feds..........the Form 4473 is a FEDERAL form and must be completed per ATF regs.



Yes


California law doesn't change Federal law or ATF regs.





Horsehockey.
A receiver is recorded on the Form 4473 as "Other Firearm" on Que 16 and as "receiver" on Que 27.



Horsehockey again.
Original configuration is pistol> make as Form 1 SBR> can revert to Pistol when not in SBR configuration.
Firearms originally manufactured as rifles cannot be made into handguns.




Horsehockey for the third time.
I can take an AR lower, make a pistol, file a F1 for an SBR, after approval, make an SBR with that lower.
I can take that SBR, remove the shoulder stock and while not in SBR configuration I again have a pistol.
Same lower can be either a pistol or SBR depending on current configuration.

***and if I wanted I could make a Short Barreled Shotgun or Title I shotgun from that lower as well.




Horseshit.


ATF agents don't do compliance inspection. IOI's do. And they didn't tell you that or you misunderstood what they did tell you.
And if they DID tell you that, YOU & THEY need to read the effing instructions on every Form 4473.



This differs from your first post where you claimed the lower was " checked out as a rifle, you cannot turn it into a pistol".



1. A Form 1 doesn't manufacture anything.....it's for "making".
2. Just stop. 87% of what you posted in this thread is in error.



       

Boy, there is a lot of "Derp" in this thread..

Go get em Tom..

Thanks, DogtownTom.  I will build it into a pistol, take pictures with a date in the background, engrave it, then make it into a SBR.

Much appreciated.


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No requirement to do so.....so don't.

Hey look, My Glock 18C is next to the Mets 1967 yearbook. Means I must have had it in 1967. And that makes it a transferable! Let bidding begin at $100K.

Like Tom said, dont waste your time.

Attached File

Deleted/duplicate.

Everything you said is wrong.

ha ha, love that...

Once a rifle, always a rifle. However, if you form 1 it into an SBR, you can configure it any way you want.....stock, no stock, etc,.

Just buy a new stripped lower

Nope, nope, nope and it isn't anything new.Nine effing years ago.