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Link Posted: 11/28/2019 6:45:16 PM EST
Quick question. I’m looking for a L3 filmless white phosphor pvs14. Quotes I’ve gotten seem to vary quite a bit. Not all of them list the part number but I’m assuming they are all the same. DSG arms is the cheapest I’ve found so far with my discount. Any reason to not go with them?

https://dsgarms.com/night-thermal-sights-l3h-245620-037
Link Posted: 11/28/2019 7:57:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DrewDownAZ:
Quick question. I’m looking for a L3 filmless white phosphor pvs14. Quotes I’ve gotten seem to vary quite a bit. Not all of them list the part number but I’m assuming they are all the same.
View Quote
Just saying that something is an L3 unfilmed white tube does not describe it fully. L3 has a number of different ‘series’ of performance bins they categorize the tubes in, and more than just one of them includes filmless white. See this thread, which includes a few of the tables that L3 published showing how people come up with “20ua” or “22ua” as examples for the tube spec categories when advertising or selling their NV.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/L3-tube-rating-system-16um-18um-20um/18-482217/&page=1&anc=bottom#i4853271

I like to think of it kinda like the Omni levels that guys have classified their tubes in for a while now. Each level had its own minimum spec level. Nowadays most sellers seem to just say filmed or filmless, and if you are more particular about specs or blems you have to have that conversation directly with them. Most of the good guys are more than happy to have that chat rather than hide which tubes in particular you’re buying from them. It’s not like buying a lens for your camera where all the focal length and aperture specs are consistent. Each tube has its own makeup of something like a dozen specs and they’re all quite unique.
Link Posted: 11/28/2019 10:35:21 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jwramp:

Just saying that something is an L3 unfilmed white tube does not describe it fully. L3 has a number of different ‘series’ of performance bins they categorize the tubes in, and more than just one of them includes filmless white. See this thread, which includes a few of the tables that L3 published showing how people come up with “20ua” or “22ua” as examples for the tube spec categories when advertising or selling their NV.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/L3-tube-rating-system-16um-18um-20um/18-482217/&page=1&anc=bottom#i4853271

I like to think of it kinda like the Omni levels that guys have classified their tubes in for a while now. Each level had its own minimum spec level. Nowadays most sellers seem to just say filmed or filmless, and if you are more particular about specs or blems you have to have that conversation directly with them. Most of the good guys are more than happy to have that chat rather than hide which tubes in particular you’re buying from them. It’s not like buying a lens for your camera where all the focal length and aperture specs are consistent. Each tube has its own makeup of something like a dozen specs and they’re all quite unique.
View Quote
I understand that different manufacturing use various L3 tubes to build pvs14’s. But L3/EOTech also sells their own pvs14’s and that’s what I’m confused about. They only seem to make one unit that fits that criteria.
Link Posted: 11/28/2019 10:50:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/28/2019 10:55:29 PM EST by jwramp]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DrewDownAZ:

But L3/EOTech also sells their own pvs14’s and that’s what I’m confused about. They only seem to make one unit that fits that criteria.
View Quote
Gotcha, sorry I missed the question. Looks like even L3/EOTech’s product page for that SKU has the wrong description (for PVS-31a) and a broken link to the product sheet PDF here https://www.eotechgear.com/gen-iii-night-vision-monocular-an-pvs-14-m914a-white-phoshpor

Tough to say what tube they’ve selected for those ones or even if it’s a consistent one across all the ones they supply under that SKU. I bet one of the retailers that stocks them could get you more information on whether they come with spec sheets. I believe most of the retailers around here build their own from bare tubes, rather than getting the whole 14 straight from the factory complete.

ETA: If this is the same product, the specs are quite low for the money (res: 64, s/n: 21, FoM: 1344) and you’d be much better served by reaching out to one of the dealers around here to build you up a unit.
Link Posted: 11/28/2019 11:15:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jwramp:

Gotcha, sorry I missed the question. Looks like even L3/EOTech’s product page for that SKU has the wrong description (for PVS-31a) and a broken link to the product sheet PDF here https://www.eotechgear.com/gen-iii-night-vision-monocular-an-pvs-14-m914a-white-phoshpor

Tough to say what tube they’ve selected for those ones or even if it’s a consistent one across all the ones they supply under that SKU. I bet one of the retailers that stocks them could get you more information on whether they come with spec sheets. I believe most of the retailers around here build their own from bare tubes, rather than getting the whole 14 straight from the factory complete.

ETA: If this is the same product, the specs are quite low for the money (res: 64, s/n: 21, FoM: 1344) and you’d be much better served by reaching out to one of the dealers around here to build you up a unit.
View Quote
Thank you very much for the help. I will call dsg and ask.
Link Posted: 12/13/2019 12:08:30 PM EST
Here is what the L3 dealer told me about the L3 tubes used in the factory L3 pvs14. In case anyone else is interested



Hey, the best measure of a tube is called FOM, or figure of merit. It is determined by the multiplication of the Line Pairs Per Millimeter and the Signal to Noise Ratio. Anything above 1800 is very usable in a tactical environment. L3 is consistently manufacturing tubes with FOM in excessive of 2376, which is the best on the market. The tubes purchased by TNVC or any other company to use in the own builds are seconds, as L3 saves the best tubes for themselves and their military and L.E. customers. That is not to say that the tubes TNVC buys are no very good also, you just need to ask for specific details about which is the minimum FOM and what kind of defects (Black spots) and what the sizes and locations are.

I can tell you it is very hard for me to get an L3 PVS-14 right now, I have about 28 on back order from as far back as May of this year and do not expect them until February.”
Link Posted: 12/13/2019 12:37:54 PM EST
Btw I’m not accusing tnvs of using blems or seconds. Just relaying what I was told. I’m going to try and see if I can simply verify the spec on the one I’m ordering before it ships.
Link Posted: 12/29/2019 8:44:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DrewDownAZ:
Btw I’m not accusing tnvs of using blems or seconds. Just relaying what I was told. I’m going to try and see if I can simply verify the spec on the one I’m ordering before it ships.
View Quote
I just got my PVS-14 that I ordered from TNVC. It has very high specs and no blems. I would not be afraid at all to get one from them.
Link Posted: 1/5/2020 4:28:40 PM EST
So, I’m Perry new to the NVD game, and made a purchase at the beginning of December (Pvs-14 autogated with Norotos AKA2 dovetail on revision caiman). I have just a few questions that I can’t seem to find a straight answer for anywhere.

When I first turn the unit on before it does what seems to be a warm up, if I see any bright lights (I live in an urban environment), it will leave a faint black streak. I know this is a depletion and is only temporary, but am I damaging my tube?

Also, as stated, I do live in an urban environment so there’s only so many places I can go that have near to no light. Even though my unit is autogated, am I in danger of ruining my tubes by walking past street lights/semi lit areas?

Thanks for any input, and they may be stupid questions but I saved to get the unit I wanted and don’t want to ruin it out of ignorance.
Link Posted: 1/26/2020 12:08:42 PM EST
I hope this is a correct thread for this question; complete newbie, what a subject to start researching.  There was a very interesting ARCHIVED thread awhile back discussing the -7 vs. -14 pros/cons.  I thank all that contributed to that.  Following info up front:

1.  I've NEVER shot using NODs.  Only thing previously familiar with was the Griffith Park Observatory the Army called a Starlight scope so that will give you some idea of my age.  ;)
2.  I'm still weighing cost/use/benefit of 7 vs. 14 as there are some other considerations.
3.  Have a phenomenal optometrist that has worked with over some things when I was shooting competitively, fine tuning correction for acuity.  That said, he still advises that depth perception as well as peripheral vision are excellent.

I'm extremely comfortable shooting an RDS (and even some low-powered scopes) both eyes open.  It's a natural thing for me.  So here is the question that relates to use of a PVS-14, not ever having done it:

Assume right-handed shooter.  If the -14 is mounted such that the L eye is looking through it, and the other is open to the NV-capable RDS, does that work?  For those that have shot RDS with a -14 WITHOUT a separate IR pointer but using their RDS, is that a workable method?  For those that have used both -7 and -14, is it just easier to use a -7 and a laser pointer and forget about the RDS under those conditions?  Hope the question is clear enough.

Caveat:  I'm a retired kulak doin' OK, but still a kulak - so don't say "buy both" 'cause I have to save for stuff.
Thanks you!
Link Posted: 3/5/2020 1:22:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Badger52:
I hope this is a correct thread for this question; complete newbie, what a subject to start researching.  There was a very interesting ARCHIVED thread awhile back discussing the -7 vs. -14 pros/cons.  I thank all that contributed to that.  Following info up front:

1.  I've NEVER shot using NODs.  Only thing previously familiar with was the Griffith Park Observatory the Army called a Starlight scope so that will give you some idea of my age.  ;)
2.  I'm still weighing cost/use/benefit of 7 vs. 14 as there are some other considerations.
3.  Have a phenomenal optometrist that has worked with over some things when I was shooting competitively, fine tuning correction for acuity.  That said, he still advises that depth perception as well as peripheral vision are excellent.

I'm extremely comfortable shooting an RDS (and even some low-powered scopes) both eyes open.  It's a natural thing for me.  So here is the question that relates to use of a PVS-14, not ever having done it:

Assume right-handed shooter.  If the -14 is mounted such that the L eye is looking through it, and the other is open to the NV-capable RDS, does that work?  For those that have shot RDS with a -14 WITHOUT a separate IR pointer but using their RDS, is that a workable method?  For those that have used both -7 and -14, is it just easier to use a -7 and a laser pointer and forget about the RDS under those conditions?  Hope the question is clear enough.

Caveat:  I'm a retired kulak doin' OK, but still a kulak - so don't say "buy both" 'cause I have to save for stuff.
Thanks you!
View Quote
Haven't shot with a red dot on a rifle, but I have a rmr on a pistol that I shoot with a pvs 14. I'm right eye dominant,  wear the 14 on the left eye, shoot with standard grip and everything, it lines up fine.
Link Posted: 3/14/2020 8:54:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2020 9:04:30 AM EST by jjflev8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DrewDownAZ:
Quick question. I’m looking for a L3 filmless white phosphor pvs14. Quotes I’ve gotten seem to vary quite a bit. Not all of them list the part number but I’m assuming they are all the same. DSG arms is the cheapest I’ve found so far with my discount. Any reason to not go with them?

https://dsgarms.com/night-thermal-sights-l3h-245620-037
View Quote
Not all tubes are the same. You need to request spec sheets and tube pictures. FOM is not the best measure of a tube. It is like horsepower on a car.

You need to see a spec sheet so you can see photocathode sensitivity, EBI, HALO, SNR and gain. I would take a lower FOM tube with better overall specs any day of the week. Realistically to your eye, you will not be able to see the difference between 1800 and 2200 FOM. Where it really boils down to is some of these other specs that get looked over. If I got a 2400FOM tube but the EBI and Halo were 0.9 I would be pretty pissed. I would take a 1800 with 0.5 HALO any day. A lot of these manufacturers have a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with their night vision sales.

Companies like TNVC and Night Vision Inc are very transparent and will help you find a tube that meets your required specs. TNVC does not even charge extra to hand select a tube/s, you just have to be willing to wait for what you want to be in stock.

This is a basis of what you should want:

SNR: 30+

Resolution: 64lp/mm +

Photocathode Sensitivity: 2200+

Gain: 65,000+

EBI: Under 1.0 is ideal, 0.6 and below is excellent

HALO: Same as EBI

The purpose of the tube shots is to see if there are any blems. I will always say a blemless tube is best, but zone 3 blems (the very outer ring of the tube) are not make it or break it.

Night vision is a big investment, so you want to make sure your are doing the whole pay once/cry once thing with it. If you got a tube with just the minimum of what I listed above, your FOM would be 1920 and you would have a tube that was clear, performed well in low light situations AND has great contrast. I really urge you to buy from a company that will let you hand select your tube/s. I have seen some really poor quality L3 Filmless WP tubes end up in people's NODs (1500FOM with like 57lp/mm resolution).
Link Posted: 3/14/2020 9:10:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jjflev8:

Not all tubes are the same. You need to request spec sheets and tube pictures. FOM is not the best measure of a tube. It is like horsepower on a car.

You need to see a spec sheet so you can see photocathode sensitivity, EBI, HALO, SNR and gain. I would take a lower FOM tube with better overall specs any day of the week. Realistically to your eye, you will not be able to see the difference between 1800 and 2200 FOM. Where it really boils down to is some of these other specs that get looked over. If I got a 2400FOM tube but the EBI and Halo were 0.9 I would be pretty pissed. I would take a 1800 with 0.5 HALO any day. A lot of these manufacturers have a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with their night vision sales.

Companies like TNVC and Night Vision Inc are very transparent and will help you find a tube that meets your required specs. TNVC does not even charge extra to hand select a tube/s, you just have to be willing to wait for what you want to be in stock.

This is a basis of what you should want:

SNR: 30+

Resolution: 64lp/mm +

Photocathode Sensitivity: 2200+

Gain: 65,000+

EBI: Under 1.0 is ideal, 0.6 and below is excellent

HALO: Same as EBI

The purpose of the tube shots is to see if there are any blems. I will always say a blemless tube is best, but zone 3 blems (the very outer ring of the tube) are not make it or break it.

Night vision is a big investment, so you want to make sure your are doing the whole pay once/cry once thing with it. If you got a tube with just the minimum of what I listed above, your FOM would be 1920 and you would have a tube that was clear, performed well in low light situations AND has great contrast. I really urge you to buy from a company that will let you hand select your tube/s. I have seen some really poor quality L3 Filmless WP tubes end up in people's NODs (1500FOM with like 57lp/mm resolution).
View Quote
Nice summary. Here’s a recent comparison of the same scene shot through two different tubes. Was interesting to see the guesses on previous posts for the FoM of each. Turned out they were over 1000 points different in FoM even though they both have very nice views of that scene. It’s more than just those two spec #s but it’s also very small differences. Specs are a great thing to lose your mind over when trying to impress all your internet friends...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9scH_0JE1E/
Link Posted: 5/4/2020 4:10:24 PM EST
I would question the statement from DSG arms that L3 keeps the "best tubes" for themselves and then companies like TNVC (and wouldn't that include DSG Arms as well?) get what's left, call it left-overs, seconds, whatever.  If I was a betting man, I'd say TNVC would probably have a better tube and/or overall deal than any secondary vendor.  In fact, if you want, they will hand-select something for you way beyond the "mil-spec".  So apples to apples here, if we're talking commercially available tubes (not J-SOC) that statement smells like BS to me.    

Shopping for "best deal" in the NV game can be dangerous.  A lot goes into it besides a guy promising you the "best price".  And on what?  What kind of warranty goes with that.  Can he repair/replace your unit.  Will he even be around in 5 years?  Do you even get a spec sheet with that?  

There are vendors here, such as TNVC, and JRH, that will be happy to discuss all this with you so you make an educated decision.  Saving a couple hundred on a 3K purchase can be penny-wise, pound-foolish.  BTDT.
Link Posted: 5/8/2020 11:39:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2020 11:40:36 AM EST by PFran42]
A current EE ad has me wondering...

What is the difference between:

- Photonis Hybrid White $2950
- Photonis Gen2+ White? $2500

My understanding is that Photonis has INTENS and ECHO (INTENS drop outs) tubes. Is this a veiled re-name?

Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 5/8/2020 6:34:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2020 6:37:08 PM EST by 1paintball]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PFran42:
A current EE ad has me wondering...

What is the difference between:

- Photonis Hybrid White $2950
- Photonis Gen2+ White? $2500

My unders­tanding is that Photonis has INTENS and ECHO ­(INTENS drop outs) tubes. Is this a veiled re-name?

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/309598/Q_RANGER__5-8-2020_12_38_48_PM_png-1406653.JPG
View Quote

Most likely the Hybrid tube is an ECHO, and the Gen II+ is an XW1441, SuperGen, or XR5/XD4 if autogated (probably not)
Link Posted: 6/7/2020 10:38:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2020 10:42:19 PM EST by Stinkfoot09]
Just got a BNVD UL with L3 filmless white phosphor ~ 32/72/2400 and when I turn my head across lights in the distance, I get a sort of wave of light across the picture that quickly goes away.  What is this effect called?  Also what OMNI classification would these tubes be?  I don't see any OMNI classification on the spec sheets.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 9:43:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2020 9:58:32 AM EST by bkr]
I see alot of references to the "commercial spec" tubes being unable to meet "mil-spec" requirements.  I've not been able to locate these current minimum requirements anywhere.  Are these references to the OMNI contracts, or is this set individually by the military unit ordering?  If so, are tubes going into current builds from AR15.com vendors rejects from OMNI VIII or IX?  Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/7/2020 3:28:48 PM EST
Getting ready to order a PVS14 and have a few pretty dumb questions

When using helmet/pvs 14 and red dot on rifle - have to adjust stock for length of NV or do you use a laser and don't worry about red dot?
When using  helmet/pvs 14 pistol with do you generally want night sights, non-night sights or use IR laser/light and just point and shoot?
Link Posted: 9/8/2020 9:48:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By craig24680:
Getting ready to order a PVS14 and have a few pretty dumb questions

When using helmet/pvs 14 and red dot on rifle - have to adjust stock for length of NV or do you use a laser and don't worry about red dot?
When using  helmet/pvs 14 pistol with do you generally want night sights, non-night sights or use IR laser/light and just point and shoot?
View Quote


For the rifle, look into a higher mount for the red dot. But an IR laser is the best option. As for the pistol, either an IR laser -or- a red dot. Night sights are WAY too bright for nods!
Link Posted: 9/8/2020 9:49:19 PM EST
Can anyone point me to some info on the L3/Harris unfilmed green gen 3 tubes? About to buy an RNVG setup and trying to finalize what to get! Thanks
Link Posted: 9/9/2020 3:31:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By XD9MM:


For the rifle, look into a higher mount for the red dot. But an IR laser is the best option. As for the pistol, either an IR laser -or- a red dot. Night sights are WAY too bright for nods!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By XD9MM:
Originally Posted By craig24680:
Getting ready to order a PVS14 and have a few pretty dumb questions

When using helmet/pvs 14 and red dot on rifle - have to adjust stock for length of NV or do you use a laser and don't worry about red dot?
When using  helmet/pvs 14 pistol with do you generally want night sights, non-night sights or use IR laser/light and just point and shoot?


For the rifle, look into a higher mount for the red dot. But an IR laser is the best option. As for the pistol, either an IR laser -or- a red dot. Night sights are WAY too bright for nods!


Got it, thanks!
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