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Posted: 11/17/2018 3:43:52 PM EDT
I understand that NFA rules are different for Destructive Devices.
It's how that MANIAC (and I mean that in the nicest possible way  ) got away with mounting a fully working M61 vulcan cannon from an F-16 in a Toyota Prius. While it is unquestionably full auto from a functional perspective, it's a DD and thus can be registered. Or so I gather.
My understanding is that the DD registration is the trump card. So if you have a registered DD it can be fully automatic and it's not covered under the May '86 MG ban. Because it's not an MG, it's a DD. Right or wrong? So, with this in mind, would it be legal for a manufacturer to decide to do something along the lines of design and manufacture a new design DD that might be, for example, a .55 caliber fully automatic PDW using what would basically be a new wildcat cartridge perhaps best described as .45 ACP on steroids? I can imagine that such a thing would have a limited but definite market. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 3:57:58 PM EDT
[#1]
No.
Sorry. DD trumps all other categories except for MG. MG trumps DD. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 3:59:46 PM EDT
[#2]
MG trumps DD. Before 1986 it was the other way around. Any automatic cannons after 1986 are lost sample machine guns.
Non US made post 86 DD’s are treated like pre-86 samples. Clear as mud? 18Z50 |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:12:39 PM EDT
[#3]
So how can this project be legal?
 We Put a Vulcan Cannon On a Prius. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:32:52 PM EDT
[#4]
MG does not trump DD, neither does DD trump MG.
The few Mk19s on the registry are dual registered as MG/DDs. If there were any transferable Vulcans they would be registered the same. The one the guy mounted on the Prius was most likely a dealers sample. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:54:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryBecause they're a FFL07/C2 SOT Manufacturer.
Just because a licensed manufacturer can make a machine gun legally does not mean that it would be legal to transfer that MG to an ordinary citizen. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 5:32:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MG does not trump DD, neither does DD trump MG. The few Mk19s on the registry are dual registered as MG/DDs. If there were any transferable Vulcans they would be registered the same. The one the guy mounted on the Prius was most likely a dealers sample. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 7:08:59 PM EDT
[#7]
How can a "surplus" M61 or any .gov surplus weapon be a dealer sample?
I thought dealer samples were new production only? There's a longer video on that heavily armed Prius that goes into more detail about the build. It indicates that the M61 was acquired with (at least) the assistance of Battlefield Las Vegas. And they have quite the collection of DD toys, as I'm sure you know. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 7:41:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How can a "surplus" M61 or any .gov surplus weapon be a dealer sample? I thought dealer samples were new production only? There's a longer video on that heavily armed Prius that goes into more detail about the build. It indicates that the M61 was acquired with (at least) the assistance of Battlefield Las Vegas. And they have quite the collection of DD toys, as I'm sure you know. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 8:57:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How can a "surplus" M61 or any .gov surplus weapon be a dealer sample? It's either a new production receiver, or newly registered. Mil/fedgov owned firearms are not on the registry. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 9:49:04 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm trying to understand the intricacies of the NFA laws here, NOT trying to argue. Just seeking clarification.
You can't register a new production MG receiver. Nor can you register a prior US government owned MG receiver even if it was made before May '86. That window of opportunity has been closed for a long time. Last I heard, ATF considers the housing for the Vulcan to itself be an MG IF it is powered hydraulically or electrically. I guess that a newly made housing could be made as a dealer sample. That would make sense. NFA laws are confusing and I don't think that there should be any such laws. I care not what you have, only what you do with it. Commit no crimes and have what you want. |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 9:52:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can't register a new production MG receiver. Nor can you register a prior US government owned MG receiver even if it was made before May '86. That window of opportunity has been closed for a long time. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 3:29:53 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm trying to understand the intricacies of the NFA laws here, NOT trying to argue. Just seeking clarification. You can't register a new production MG receiver. Nor can you register a prior US government owned MG receiver even if it was made before May '86. That window of opportunity has been closed for a long time. Last I heard, ATF considers the housing for the Vulcan to itself be an MG IF it is powered hydraulically or electrically. I guess that a newly made housing could be made as a dealer sample. That would make sense. NFA laws are confusing and I don't think that there should be any such laws. I care not what you have, only what you do with it. Commit no crimes and have what you want. All of that aside, I think BRCC just borrowed Battlefield LV's M61... or provided parts and a receiver blank, who knows. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 12:38:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Got it. Learning has taken place. Thank you for helping me to understand this.
I want an M61 barrel and I want to make a single shot rifle out of it. As I understand it, while the rifle would be a DD, the rounds aren't individually DDs unless they're explosive. M55 training rounds would cost whatever they cost. 35 bucks a shot or so? The muzzle brake would be really important. 
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Posted: 11/18/2018 12:43:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got it. Learning has taken place. Thank you for helping me to understand this.
I want an M61 barrel and I want to make a single shot rifle out of it. As I understand it, while the rifle would be a DD, the rounds aren't individually DDs unless they're explosive. M55 training rounds would cost whatever they cost. 35 bucks a shot or so? The muzzle brake would be really important. |
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Posted: 11/18/2018 2:11:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got it. Learning has taken place. Thank you for helping me to understand this.
I want an M61 barrel and I want to make a single shot rifle out of it. As I understand it, while the rifle would be a DD, the rounds aren't individually DDs unless they're explosive. M55 training rounds would cost whatever they cost. 35 bucks a shot or so? The muzzle brake would be really important. Barrels are becoming somewhat spendy, but they're available. Better to keep your eyes open for a deal and ask around... or, if you have the coin, they're pretty much always available for a few thousand $. At that cost, personally, I'd be leaning toward a Pac-Nor chambered barrel blank for $1,000 or so. Not as long, but a lot more material to work with on the OD. Their chambers seem fine, too. Only drawback, besides the length, is the wait time. |
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Posted: 11/20/2018 11:22:56 AM EDT
[#16]
the dual registered MG/DD's out there are basically a fluke, and will be straightened out as just MG's before long.
There are in fact transferable M61 Vulcans in the registry, well at least one. They are usually counted in the approximate 12 miniguns that are transferrable. even though they aren't "mini" Jonathan Arthur Ciener own one that I know is truly transferrable. He has shot it at knob creek before. There are quite a few out there as post samples in SOT's hands. I know of at least 3 more but most are never fired or are missing some parts. Battlefield Las Vegas just let them use the gun for the video shoot. They acquired that Vulcan as a rental on top of one of their APC's for their upcoming "outdoor adventures" that include artillery and shooting outside. |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 12:55:19 PM EDT
[#17]
I'd read on subguns.com a few years ago that there are supposedly two transferable GAU-8/30mms. One of them I believe was in Idaho and came out of the movie industry. It had inserts or cases made that would fire a 12 Gauge round.
My 30mm build is a single shot but reloads are fairly reasonable and are in the $10 each range 
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Posted: 11/21/2018 1:10:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Dan Shea at long mountain/phoenix ordnance would be the guy to know. He is on subguns a lot and has tracked a lot of those rarer transferrable guns, as well as Hollywood industry guns. He also knows of transferrable miniguns that got sold to gov agencies but those agencies won't sell them for any amount of money
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Posted: 11/21/2018 7:05:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd read on subguns.com a few years ago that there are supposedly two transferable GAU-8/30mms. One of them I believe was in Idaho and came out of the movie industry. It had inserts or cases made that would fire a 12 Gauge round. My 30mm build is a single shot but reloads are fairly reasonable and are in the $10 each range https://i.imgur.com/hjY54FQ.jpg?1 |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 8:40:24 PM EDT
[#20]
That's like asking to see pictures of my kid
 30mm GAU Cannon Firing 2 https://youtu.be/eIRKXFWL0lc in case the embed doesn't work. |
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Posted: 11/22/2018 1:18:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's like asking to see pictures of my kid
http://i58.tinypic.com/2vv829h.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/6rndpz.jpg http://i60.tinypic.com/2ef82o5.jpg  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIRKXFWL0lc
https://youtu.be/eIRKXFWL0lc in case the embed doesn't work.  You use, what, 1700-1775gr? Of course, WC855 is just about impossible to find nowadays, it seems... 
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Posted: 11/22/2018 7:51:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Wow! You have a heck of a memory on reloading. I had to look up how much SuperSlow I was using. The pic is in grams. I still haven't tried other powders yet.
Yes - you really do need to complete your build and you REALLY need to post pics along the way
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Posted: 11/22/2018 8:45:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow! You have a heck of a memory on reloading. I had to look up how much SuperSlow I was using. The pic is in grams. I still haven't tried other powders yet. https://i.imgur.com/gJ23TdB.jpg?1 Yes - you really do need to complete your build and you REALLY need to post pics along the way
I need to dig out all the pieces and brass and all and complete it. I keep meaning to... but when I realized what I did with one of the cabinets near the lathe (about a ton of assorted goodies in a steel cabinet) and that I'd have to empty it out and move it just to get the barrel back in there, well... I keep finding reasons that it can wait. Of course, the real fun will end up being the IM11-filled projectiles. Boom here, boom there. 
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Posted: 11/22/2018 9:16:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Incendiary mix? Can you provide additional info on this? Is it self-made or purchased? I have projos with empty nose cones that are just begging for something more fun.
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Posted: 11/23/2018 12:02:37 AM EDT
[#25]
IM-11/IM11/Incendiary Mix 11... it's an older, simple impact incendiary. Barium nitrate and magnalium alloy (50/50 Al/Mg) in a 1:1 ratio. Simple and easy, pack like a tracer... but in the nose.
ETA: Since I'm an idiot and didn't actually answer your question I make it myself. Easy enough to find the ingredients, you'll want to ball-mill them (separately, in their own containers that never get used for the other!) to a very fine mesh. "Diaper" mix or shake mix, and there it is. If you search around online, you'll find a whole lot of information about it... including a MSDS. It's that common and established.
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Posted: 11/23/2018 11:58:55 AM EDT
[#26]
I did find the MSDS. Thanks for the info! I'm off to do research and to start thinking about appropriate targets to hit with it.
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Posted: 11/23/2018 1:55:59 PM EDT
[#27]
You're welcome!
Just make sure to stay under 1/4oz fill. You know the drill, by now. |
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Posted: 11/23/2018 2:37:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Will do. That's always a good reminder.
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Posted: 11/23/2018 11:24:47 PM EDT
[#29]
This has turned into a more fun and interesting thread than I might have expected.
I hadn't really considered how much powder it takes to reload 20mm or larger. So basically 30mm STARTS at 10 reloads per pound of powder and gets more expensive from there. 1700-ish grains for some loads?Where do you get the bullets and what do you do for primers? And what do you use for powder at what price per pound? |
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Posted: 11/24/2018 12:18:24 PM EDT
[#30]
The components to reload are out there. Check out gunbroker. There's a 30mm guy who lists everything needed (or at least has listed it in the recent past). The cannon community is a little off the beaten path. Once you start meeting people who are into it then the components can be found.
My 30mm reloads are in the $10-$12 per round range which isn't bad since I don't shoot a ton of rounds through it. I did buy most of my components quite awhile ago so prices have probably gone up. |
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Posted: 11/28/2018 9:39:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got it. Learning has taken place. Thank you for helping me to understand this.
I want an M61 barrel and I want to make a single shot rifle out of it. As I understand it, while the rifle would be a DD, the rounds aren't individually DDs unless they're explosive. M55 training rounds would cost whatever they cost. 35 bucks a shot or so? The muzzle brake would be really important. |
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Posted: 11/29/2018 10:44:04 AM EDT
[#32]
I am pretty sure I saw some at the creek for 1400. not positive though. Heck I'd take a 3ft chamber end section of a 30mm just to make a mini-howitzer. I don't need one uncut
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Posted: 11/29/2018 5:18:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Are there any 25mm Barrels out there? Any market or use for M242 cases?
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Posted: 11/29/2018 5:38:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there any 25mm Barrels out there? Any market or use for M242 cases? |
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