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Posted: 12/30/2019 3:49:11 PM EDT
[#1]
This is simply your gas system rejecting a load for proper function. You either need to increase that load to a higher pressure, or change part of your system.
If you want to get that lighter load to cycle, you could check that your gas block is properly aligned. Following that if it doesn't make a change, reduce your buffer and spring to something not as strong. The super42 is a marginally stronger spring then a GI one. Alternatively, increase that handload to a higher pressure. What the book says for pressure ain't necessarily so. That rifle could even just start functioning fine when you add a suppressor. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:06:31 PM EDT
[#2]
5.56 is about 62,366 PSI rated. Your 54k psi load is quite mild. Combined with a gas system that has essentially no dwell time, and no, it's not going to work. It might work in a 10.3. It probably does work in something like a 16" BBL with 4"+ of dwell time. But don't actually expect it to.
All systems are functioning as intended. Run a hotter load, or open up the gas system more. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:06:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is simply your gas system rejecting a load for proper function. You either need to increase that load to a higher pressure, or change part of your system. If you want to get that lighter load to cycle, you could check that your gas block is properly aligned. Following that if it doesn't make a change, reduce your buffer and spring to something not as strong. The super42 is a marginally stronger spring then a GI one. Alternatively, increase that handload to a higher pressure. What the book says for pressure ain't necessarily so. That rifle could even just start functioning fine when you add a suppressor. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:08:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.56 is about 62,366 PSI rated. Your 54k psi load is quite mild. Combined with a gas system that has essentially no dwell time, and no, it's not going to work. It might work in a 10.3. It probably does work in something like a 16" BBL with 4"+ of dwell time. But don't actually expect it to. All systems are functioning as intended. Run a hotter load, or open up the gas system more. I wonder what the Hornady load is for comparison ETA: What is interesting is the primer is flat on the hand load but not on the Hornady off the shelf. Ill upload a pic |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:16:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Left group handholds right group Off the shelf
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:21:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryFair question. Rounds on the right are made at LC's plant, and I'm guessing are running CCI 41's, which are very hard primers. Though... whoever is running that primer-crimp machine needs a kick in the butt. Kind of a curious coincidental thing, to the implied poor-QC of the Kaboom-prone Frontier line we've been hearing about. Not sure what's on the left, but looks like mix and match primers. There is some headswipe though. Sometimes primers are only so informative of what's going on; but between that and the headswipe, I'd agree with your curiosity on this, as that doesn't really look like 54,000 PSI ammo at first glance. Might be, sometimes the lower pressure ammo can give curious primer behavior. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:30:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fair question. Rounds on the right are made at LC's plant, and I'm guessing are running CCI 41's, which are very hard primers. Though... whoever is running that primer-crimp machine needs a kick in the butt. Kind of a curious coincidental thing, to the implied poor-QC of the Kaboom-prone Frontier line we've been hearing about. Not sure what's on the left, but looks like mix and match primers. There is some headswipe though. Sometimes primers are only so informative of what's going on; but between that and the headswipe, I'd agree with your curiosity on this, as that doesn't really look like 54,000 PSI ammo at first glance. Might be, sometimes the lower pressure ammo can give curious primer behavior. 
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:01:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fair question. Rounds on the right are made at LC's plant, and I'm guessing are running CCI 41's, which are very hard primers. Though... whoever is running that primer-crimp machine needs a kick in the butt. Kind of a curious coincidental thing, to the implied poor-QC of the Kaboom-prone Frontier line we've been hearing about. Not sure what's on the left, but looks like mix and match primers. There is some headswipe though. Sometimes primers are only so informative of what's going on; but between that and the headswipe, I'd agree with your curiosity on this, as that doesn't really look like 54,000 PSI ammo at first glance. Might be, sometimes the lower pressure ammo can give curious primer behavior. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:13:54 PM EDT
[#9]
So with the latest photos (showing less signs of overpressure) is the vote to check gas block alignment and if that's good lighten buffer and if that doesn't do it then more gas?
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:16:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't recall the Frontier M193 being crimped on the pocket |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:25:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So with the latest photos (showing less signs of overpressure) is the vote to check gas block alignment and if that's good lighten buffer and if that doesn't do it then more gas? Personally, with .223 - I like to give it a little more gas. Most powders tend to run cleaner and more consistently the higher P you run them; and often I find .223 shoots better at the warmer P (but not always). On a side note, I've found my AUG POI can be sensitive to the pressure loading. So a mild load in an AUG will impact notably different than a strong load. AR's for whatever reason are more forgiving. So with 5.56, I've set my load velocity spec to be about the same as Wolf Gold regardless of what particular powder I'm using, so that all my loads will have the same zero in the AUG. This is a little bit below NATO full power, but not by a whole lot. I find that pressure tends to run quite well and be a nice compromise of accuracy and power. I would say your loads are below that. In a 16", run that around 3020-3070 FPS range with 55. Obviously this is "some guy on the internet", so of course do your own research and do what you want in the end. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:25:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Talked to Hornady - They said SAAMI Specs so 53-54K.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:27:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talked to Hornady - They said SAAMI Specs so 53-54K. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:30:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For .223. Your rifle is a 5.56. Also, Hornady is painfully timid, their reloading manual is... mild. To put it mildly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Talked to Hornady - They said SAAMI Specs so 53-54K. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:46:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But if I’m following you correctly you would think that would then mean the hornady would short stroke vs my loads Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Talked to Hornady - They said SAAMI Specs so 53-54K. 
I'm not familiar with AA2015, so just looked it up. It's actually made specifically for .223, and your load is right out of their book. In 2015 I can't imagine them not developing this specifically for AR15's. So yea, you'd think this would work golden. That said, a 10.3" BBL is a bit non-standard... The Frontier line is known to be on the hot end; so much so it's Kaboomed more than a couple rifles, due to some spotty QC I guess. Also, powder science is a really fascinating topic. Basically it's a bootstrap process where the hotter it burns, the more complete it burns to conversion to pressure, the faster it burns. But the faster it burns, the hotter it burns, to make it burn even faster. The whole system is tuned to give you a nice complete burn in the load range provided. But I looked up AA2015, and your load should be OK actually, from their data. Different powders just have different pressure profiles. I'm not familiar with AA2015, but it might just run with a low port pressure at that spot for whatever reason, and need more dwell-time than a 10.3 gives. Easiest way to address that is to go ahead and turn up the heat a little bit, to give it more gas to work with, which should get you closer to what the Frontier is doing. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:55:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also a fair question. And in the end, it really is a case of Who Knows?
I'm not familiar with AA2015, so just looked it up. It's actually made specifically for .223, and your load is right out of their book. In 2015 I can't imagine them not developing this specifically for AR15's. So yea, you'd think this would work golden. That said, a 10.3" BBL is a bit non-standard... The Frontier line is known to be on the hot end; so much so it's Kaboomed more than a couple rifles, due to some spotty QC I guess. Also, powder science is a really fascinating topic. Basically it's a bootstrap process where the hotter it burns, the more complete it burns to conversion to pressure, the faster it burns. But the faster it burns, the hotter it burns, to make it burn even faster. The whole system is tuned to give you a nice complete burn in the load range provided. But I looked up AA2015, and your load should be OK actually, from their data. Different powders just have different pressure profiles. I'm not familiar with AA2015, but it might just run with a low port pressure at that spot for whatever reason, and need more dwell-time than a 10.3 gives. Easiest way to address that is to go ahead and turn up the heat a little bit, to give it more gas to work with, which should get you closer to what the Frontier is doing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Talked to Hornady - They said SAAMI Specs so 53-54K.
I'm not familiar with AA2015, so just looked it up. It's actually made specifically for .223, and your load is right out of their book. In 2015 I can't imagine them not developing this specifically for AR15's. So yea, you'd think this would work golden. That said, a 10.3" BBL is a bit non-standard... The Frontier line is known to be on the hot end; so much so it's Kaboomed more than a couple rifles, due to some spotty QC I guess. Also, powder science is a really fascinating topic. Basically it's a bootstrap process where the hotter it burns, the more complete it burns to conversion to pressure, the faster it burns. But the faster it burns, the hotter it burns, to make it burn even faster. The whole system is tuned to give you a nice complete burn in the load range provided. But I looked up AA2015, and your load should be OK actually, from their data. Different powders just have different pressure profiles. I'm not familiar with AA2015, but it might just run with a low port pressure at that spot for whatever reason, and need more dwell-time than a 10.3 gives. Easiest way to address that is to go ahead and turn up the heat a little bit, to give it more gas to work with, which should get you closer to what the Frontier is doing. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:04:05 PM EDT
[#17]
You didn't specify overall round count, but before making any significant changes like opening up the gas port (something I'd advise against), you'd probably do well to get a thousand or so rounds through it so that everything is nicely broken in. If at that point you're still not able to cycle the lighter load even with a standard spring and lighter buffer, then you might consider something more drastic like opening the gas port. It's very likely you'll find it can cycle the lighter load after some break-in.
Keep in mind that if you're going to be shooting suppressed at any point in the future, opening the gas port beyond .070" isn't really desirable. The .070" port is basically an excellent compromise between suppressed and unsuppressed. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:31:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You didn't specify overall round count, but before making any significant changes like opening up the gas port (something I'd advise against), you'd probably do well to get a thousand or so rounds through it so that everything is nicely broken in. If at that point you're still not able to cycle the lighter load even with a standard spring and lighter buffer, then you might consider something more drastic like opening the gas port. It's very likely you'll find it can cycle the lighter load after some break-in. Keep in mind that if you're going to be shooting suppressed at any point in the future, opening the gas port beyond .070" isn't really desirable. The .070" port is basically an excellent compromise between suppressed and unsuppressed. Its ever been shot. I had 40 rounds before I switched to the hand loads. So call it 60 or so total. I may suppress it so I’ll just run it with 5.56 off the shelf rounds for now and see how it goes. After 1k if it’s still being a jerk I’ll reduce buffer weight. Only bummer because the gun was super smooth and accurate that malfunction was almost like a dog bite to where it’s in my head |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:18:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.56 is about 62,366 PSI rated. Your 54k psi load is quite mild. Combined with a gas system that has essentially no dwell time, and no, it's not going to work. It might work in a 10.3. It probably does work in something like a 16" BBL with 4"+ of dwell time. But don't actually expect it to. All systems are functioning as intended. Run a hotter load, or open up the gas system more. Read this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=434 And this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=473 The problem with the load is gas volume available, not pressure. The solution is a slower gunpowder and larger charge weight. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:38:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
61 ksi is the 3sigma pressure at the upper end of acceptable for M193 ammunition. Operating average pressure is 55 ksi piezoelectric method. Read this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=434 And this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=473 The problem with the load is gas volume available, not pressure. The solution is a slower gunpowder and larger charge weight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
5.56 is about 62,366 PSI rated. Your 54k psi load is quite mild. Combined with a gas system that has essentially no dwell time, and no, it's not going to work. It might work in a 10.3. It probably does work in something like a 16" BBL with 4"+ of dwell time. But don't actually expect it to. All systems are functioning as intended. Run a hotter load, or open up the gas system more. Read this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=434 And this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=473 The problem with the load is gas volume available, not pressure. The solution is a slower gunpowder and larger charge weight. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:55:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Let your husband load for you.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:06:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for this. This was honestly the first time Its ever been shot. I had 40 rounds before I switched to the hand loads. So call it 60 or so total. I may suppress it so I’ll just run it with 5.56 off the shelf rounds for now and see how it goes. After 1k if it’s still being a jerk I’ll reduce buffer weight. Only bummer because the gun was super smooth and accurate that malfunction was almost like a dog bite to where it’s in my head Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You didn't specify overall round count, but before making any significant changes like opening up the gas port (something I'd advise against), you'd probably do well to get a thousand or so rounds through it so that everything is nicely broken in. If at that point you're still not able to cycle the lighter load even with a standard spring and lighter buffer, then you might consider something more drastic like opening the gas port. It's very likely you'll find it can cycle the lighter load after some break-in. Keep in mind that if you're going to be shooting suppressed at any point in the future, opening the gas port beyond .070" isn't really desirable. The .070" port is basically an excellent compromise between suppressed and unsuppressed. Its ever been shot. I had 40 rounds before I switched to the hand loads. So call it 60 or so total. I may suppress it so I’ll just run it with 5.56 off the shelf rounds for now and see how it goes. After 1k if it’s still being a jerk I’ll reduce buffer weight. Only bummer because the gun was super smooth and accurate that malfunction was almost like a dog bite to where it’s in my head I don't reload, so I can only relate my experience with off the shelf ammo, but I can tell you all three of my DD 10.3" .070" barrels will cycle anything from weaker steel and brass case .223 to full power 5.56 unsuppressed using an H2 or H3 and standard spring. So, if a standard spring and H or H2 isn't allowing reliable cycling, there are likely other factors at play, probably related to the load itself. In any case, breaking everything in nicely and giving carbon a chance to seal up the gas system should give you a bit more wiggle room to cycle weaker ammo. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:20:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let your husband load for you. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:29:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That smoothness is also one of the reasons I'd suggest staying at the current .070" gas port size... cycling will only become more violent as you open it up. I don't reload, so I can only relate my experience with off the shelf ammo, but I can tell you all three of my DD 10.3" .070" barrels will cycle anything from weaker steel and brass case .223 to full power 5.56 unsuppressed using an H2 or H3 and standard spring. So, if a standard spring and H or H2 isn't allowing reliable cycling, there are likely other factors at play, probably related to the load itself. In any case, breaking everything in nicely and giving carbon a chance to seal up the gas system should give you a bit more wiggle room to cycle weaker ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You didn't specify overall round count, but before making any significant changes like opening up the gas port (something I'd advise against), you'd probably do well to get a thousand or so rounds through it so that everything is nicely broken in. If at that point you're still not able to cycle the lighter load even with a standard spring and lighter buffer, then you might consider something more drastic like opening the gas port. It's very likely you'll find it can cycle the lighter load after some break-in. Keep in mind that if you're going to be shooting suppressed at any point in the future, opening the gas port beyond .070" isn't really desirable. The .070" port is basically an excellent compromise between suppressed and unsuppressed. Its ever been shot. I had 40 rounds before I switched to the hand loads. So call it 60 or so total. I may suppress it so I’ll just run it with 5.56 off the shelf rounds for now and see how it goes. After 1k if it’s still being a jerk I’ll reduce buffer weight. Only bummer because the gun was super smooth and accurate that malfunction was almost like a dog bite to where it’s in my head I don't reload, so I can only relate my experience with off the shelf ammo, but I can tell you all three of my DD 10.3" .070" barrels will cycle anything from weaker steel and brass case .223 to full power 5.56 unsuppressed using an H2 or H3 and standard spring. So, if a standard spring and H or H2 isn't allowing reliable cycling, there are likely other factors at play, probably related to the load itself. In any case, breaking everything in nicely and giving carbon a chance to seal up the gas system should give you a bit more wiggle room to cycle weaker ammo. In case your interested here's the build: DD 10.3 DD BCG Blackout 3 prong G - DDC Rail G - Gas block G- DDC ACH G-SSA Trigger G - Super 42 G Parts kit |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:37:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I laughed 
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:39:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you think it’s just this combo and I should be fine with more standard 5.56 and .223 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
5.56 is about 62,366 PSI rated. Your 54k psi load is quite mild. Combined with a gas system that has essentially no dwell time, and no, it's not going to work. It might work in a 10.3. It probably does work in something like a 16" BBL with 4"+ of dwell time. But don't actually expect it to. All systems are functioning as intended. Run a hotter load, or open up the gas system more. Read this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=434 And this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=473 The problem with the load is gas volume available, not pressure. The solution is a slower gunpowder and larger charge weight. The entire charge will burn. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 10:05:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Load Reloder 15 or similar with that bullet. H4895, Varget, or similar gunpowders that nearly fill the case. The entire charge will burn. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
5.56 is about 62,366 PSI rated. Your 54k psi load is quite mild. Combined with a gas system that has essentially no dwell time, and no, it's not going to work. It might work in a 10.3. It probably does work in something like a 16" BBL with 4"+ of dwell time. But don't actually expect it to. All systems are functioning as intended. Run a hotter load, or open up the gas system more. Read this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=434 And this - https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=473 The problem with the load is gas volume available, not pressure. The solution is a slower gunpowder and larger charge weight. The entire charge will burn. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 11:53:55 AM EDT
[#28]
Checked position of gas block today. Seems square - also I remembered the barrel was dimpled by DD so I pull a set screw and its dead center on the dimples. So unless G or DD is off in their manufacturing I think I can assume is timed properly.
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Posted: 1/9/2020 5:58:52 PM EDT
[#29]
So what ever happened here.
Did you get it figured out? |
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