Ok time to get serious.  Xmas bonus coming and I'm going to get one or the other. Plan on both but probably only get one now.
I am new and don't have anything no ir no dbal or mawl's and nothing in thermal.
Will be used for moving around property and hunting and the reason i will get both. But which one first.
The property that i will use this most at is out of the way so very dark. So im leaning NV. But the place was broke into over the summer not sure which would be better to have when i am there for id'ing a potential threat if one did arise. And probably would go with that first.

IMO, NV i2 (NV) for movement and identification.

Thermal for detection.

I went I2 first, but hardcore hog hunters will probably tell you Thermal is more important.

that means NV IMO

thermal for detection and stationary hunting

Trying to navigate with thermal is difficult at best, so NV is what you should start with.

NV for sure.

If you want to walk around in the dark get night vision if you want to kill animals in the dark get thermal.
You will see many more things with thermal that you will miss with night vision.
Flame suit on

I hog hunt often but rarely take my night vision. Open fields is good for night vision hunting but wooded areas not so much. thermal blows night is no way in this scenario

Thermal is awesome... can spot game animals from several hundred yards.

Nv is kinda what I thought also. Second opinion if I may ask. I definitely want duels/bino but can't afford that at the moment so was leaning mod3.
What's your thoughts get a mono mod3 then add to it later or wait save and get bino.
Also what if I went mod3 mono thermal 2nd mod3.
Thanks for your input

I live in the sticks. It's dark. It's Oregon cloudy.

If I had to choose, I'd get thermal first.
The guys comments above are all correct, and you should take them all seriously.
But I'll tell you what - I see WAY more life, large and small, and especially partially obscured by brush, with my thermal than with my PVS-14 (with or without IR illumination). Including when I have spotted with thermal and know just where to look with NV, I often cannot, or can barely differentiate a non-moving critter.

Sure, the problem of target ID is a big deal, but for the cost of a thermal plus $50 you can buy a zillion candlepower spotlight too, know EXACTLY where to point it and when, and use the eyes you got for free.

I'd have to agree with the poster above me.. A nice thermal will absolutely blow your mind. You can see critters and things you had no idea existed. I started with thermal, about to enter NV... so take what I say with a grain of salt, but that my opinion.

Plus, when you take a shot with thermal and see the splatter all over the brush it's easy to confirm the kill

Attached File


Get Both!

Thermal great for finding shit you did not know was there but sucks for navigating. I2 great for navigating and shooting but if it’s not moving you may not notice it’s there at certain distances.

Pretty much. I really don’t use my nightvision that much anymore while hunting. Thermal is good for telling the difference between hog, coyote, person etc. In my experience, night vision is good for walking around dense wooded areas and telling the difference between Mark and Steve.

The little ones love it because walking around at night is less scary and new people are always interested.

Well I think I really need NV first as my property is hilly and wooded and will be doing a lot of walking/riding. But will add thermal next.
Thanks for the input.

Right on

I'd recommend PVS type setup first as this is probably what you would be using like 99% of time anyway. Plus huge battery use difference 40 hrs. vs. 2.5 or so.

ETA: A few more big selling points of PVS type setup
Huge cost difference. PVS-7s are relatively cheap. PVS-14s are great too but more costly obviosly. Do not by gen 1 or 2 stuff from my limited experience. Like all optics buy once cry once as the saying goes.
Accessory compatibility. IR beacons, compass option, cheap rifle mounting for use with ACOG and Aimpoints. Compatibility with laser designation, IR lights and illiuminators, etc.
Hand, head,and rifle use options easily available and relatively light to boot.
Near focus.
If it can be seen with the naked eye in daylight it can mostly be seen by PVS. No thermal signature needed.

Thermals shine at at the role of detection and engagement. Passive for pretty much for everything else but they also do a pretty good job doing the former as well.

NV in very dense woods, especially with an IR, can be very tricky with splashback

Easy enough to do in OR, but spotlighting is mostly illegal in the south east US. Like, go to jail illegal.

Thermal. NV isn't too hot in wooded areas. And for detection it flat sucks. If your primary goal is navigation then NV but if you want detection and partial identification you want thermal.

Spotlighting as in "illegal hunting" or spotlighting as in "I need to id this unknown thing"?
Spotlight hunting is pretty much illegal everywhere I think. But even then game animals, as far as I know, can't be harvested after hours anyways

This is an excellent option. Glynn from nvincoperated aka nightvision inc. will collminate 1 mod3 bravo mark it left or right, then when money becomes available he will do the other side, then buy the bridge mount later. Depending on ow you will use your thermal for scanning, rifle mounted or both will determine what and how much the unit will cost. General scanning 400-2,000 for a handheld/rifle mount 1,800-2,200. Also the more you spend on thermal the further and clearer you will be able to see and PID what you're looking at.

Oh I agree completely. I was just comenting that there is a difference between walking in an open field with moonlight vs a wooded pathway with a heavy canopy.

I spend a decent amount of time outside in the dark .  I went thermal first .  Used it for several years before I ever bought a 14. I’ve got a couple 14s now, and for the most part they don’t get used.  There’s usually enough ambient light to navigate with you natural vision.  One of the guys we hunted with brought a L3 filmless wp, it was badass.  I will have one at some point in time, but it still won’t get used all that much.

As far as the detecting a “threat” , I’d still pick thermal .  Yes I realize you can’t recognize facial features ect, but I’ll see you way before you see me.  Not sure what kind of place you got, but people doing stuff in the dark , on a place they don’t own, is never a good situation.  At least around here ....  at minimum, you’d know there’s a man/people amongst your stuff, and could call sheriffs Dept, or handle as you see fit.   Hope this helps

Example... Attached File
[img]https://ww

To piggyback with OP, what thermal is recommended for property "surveillance" and no hunting?

If you know you’ll never need to shoot with it, any of the Monoculars will do.

There's some great discussion in this thread that will absolutely come up again.  Maybe we can get someone to sticky it at the top of the page.  NV and thermal each have distinct advantages and disadvantages.  Having both is of course the best choice.  Having to choose only one to start with simply means you'll need to compensate for its inherent weaknesses.

FWIW OP, you're way ahead of me.  I started with a red flashlight and a $40 chinese scope, and have owned or fielded just about everything between that and filmless L3 WP in conjunction with 640 rez thermal.

Dont underestimate this right here.

I’ve

I’ve made this exact same opinion a couple times on here, but i’ve dialed back my rhetoric because I’ve had other members and industry partners freak out so much. I get it, NV is cool, but for my purposes of killing animals at night, thermal blows NV out of the water.

Well I think after reading all these great response's I'm leaning thermal first.
We don't have many problems at our place but once is to much for me. The police took over 30 min to get there.
We have a cabin and on the other side of the property we have a 40X40 garage (bought two separate properties that join and most there don't know we own both). Both were broke into about two weeks apart last spring.
We have done the camera and alarm thing but when I'm in town I stay there allot and mostly by myself.
Armed of course but not  equipped with all the proper gear. That will change this xmas.
Now off to research thermal.
Thanks for all the great REAL world input.

I'm just in the suburbs on 3-4 acres and 99.9% of the time I'm using thermal just walking around and looking at stuff.  I miss way too much with my PVS14.  I can easily spot a mouse 40-50 yards away in my wood stack.   I didn't even know I had flying squirrels on my property until I was like what the F was that going from tree to tree.

I have no qualms in saying I dont need PID, because its my land. MY. LAND. Your dog on my land? It shouldnt be. A PERSON on my land?! Shit is gonna get real real quick because I KNOW you shouldnt be there and you know it to.

But I dont hunt public lands and we dont have hogs. Its very situational, and I can definitely see why there would be strong reasons to have unquestionable PID before pulling the trigger. But to me it seems like a broad brush to simply say you should always have it.

Which is why a user needs to have a reasonable understanding of his use cases.

Just for illustrative purpose.....  again, you can’t tell who it is , but is it the neighbor with a broom that’s sweeping the porch at 2am? Or a meth headed shit hook with a rifle? Attached File

What thermal is that?

That’s a pulsar Helion.   Xp50 version.  So it’s a 640, but not the best 640 image out there.  But it is what I had in my phone, and as you can see there’s plenty of detail, and an outstanding image overall

Last and final question before I place an order tomorrow. Would you?
A. Trail XP50? Pro: good scope from reviews. Con: only have thermal but it's having an XP50 really a con.
Or
B. Breach with a mod3 mono. Pro: having both. Con: Not having a thermal scope.

If A probably be 6 months or so before I could add a mod3 mono. If B likewise 6 months but then it would be do i get the other mod3 or the XP.

I'm getting both regardless and as you gentlemen already know getting both is correct answer.
And it's always just the beginning.

Tough question.

I say if you’re gonna hunt at all, you’ll end up with a thermal scope eventually anyways...

So maybe start off with the big expense first?

As stated thermal is superior for detection. NV for on the move

The Breach is really good at detection and IMO at a reasonable price point for what you get. It doesn't do well at IDing but it does well at detection. You'll be able to spot a person in the open at a good distance (200 yards or more) and it's quite good at smaller animals at less than 200

The battery life is terrible however and the menu is a bit finicky to turn it on or off. It's not well suited to constant power on/off. I get about 45 minutes on a CR123 but since mine is helmet mounted I run an external battery pack instead and leave it on all night

What I like about the breach is how fast you can see targets of interest and then use a better thermal to ID while hunting to be sure of your target

If I were patrolling my property at night the Breach would be sufficient to 200 yards depending on conditions.  If you need longer detection for wide open spaces consider a better thermal

I don't do much hunting but may after getting the right tools, the ultimate goal is to have NV and Thermal.
I think I'm going to order the breach first as I don't really want to scan with my rifle. But will be adding probably the trail XP50 in about 6 months after saving.
Also will probably get a Mod3 mono now and add the second later as funds allow.
So this week Breach/mod3 mono then add the XP50 then the second Mod3.

Thanks for all the input.

I would count on the Breach for inside of 75 yards. Past that and it really struggles.  Have you done the math on how much hardware you will have to buy to run the Breach and Mod 3 at the same time?  It's no small amount of money in hardware, and you may still have to cut on your Breach with sandpaper to make it work since Flir totally bubba'd its dovetail.

I've spent ten months now scanning with my Trail XP50.  With the DLOC mount it goes right back on the gun with ease in complete darkness, and never loses zero.  So it is essentially a monocular and scope in one.

Well no actually I haven't thought of that. I work allot and don't get to hunt much but really wanted to get the breach even if used as a handheld for when I'm at my property to detect anyone/anything around the house and garage if need be, maybe even walking around. Then I would get the XP50 in the coming months as funds com available. Maybe I wrong and the more I research the more I second guess since I don't have any experience with NV/thermal.
Thank you for heads up.

It struggles for detection beyond 75 yds? Or it struggles for PID beyond 75?

I do too.

As an illustration, look at this video of animals filmed first with NV, then thermal.

Video not available

I miss a lot with my pvs 14 too. The thermal is just incredible at picking up things after dark. Thermal has the bigger wow factor as far as seeing in the dark, it just lights up the world and it doesn't matter how dark it is. There are some conditions that make it work a little harder, but for the most part, you'll see everything better with thermal if you are scanning.

If you are navigating though, you need NV, your eye sees through the tube like a 1x red dot, it's different than looking at a screen.

If you are worried about missing things with NV but you are not going to be shooting a whole lot at this point, you can compensate for it with an IR light, just shine it around and look for eye shine. This doesn't work if they aren't looking at you obviously but you'll pick up a lot more this way. However, with a 1x pvs14 you won't be able to tell what you are looking at unless it is a large animal or it's movements clue you in to what you are looking at, just like with thermal. You'll need to sneak up on it to get a closer look. Last night I had a small animal at 50 yds I couldn't identify through my pvs 14 even with IR. I had eye shine there but I couldn't tell what it was. It wasn't moving around AT ALL, other than moving it's head back and forth. So I needed a closer look. I couldn't get a closer look because I didn't have enough shadows in that direction to make the walk. My barn light was stopping me. If I had used my thermal I might have been able to tell rabbit vs cat vs possum at that distance because it would have allowed me to see the way it was sitting, if it had a tail, etc... with the 14 all I could see were illuminated eyes and I could tell they were close to the ground.

When people talk about PID with NV they are talking about using magnified optics at distance, or identifying large animals or humans at somewhat shorter distances than you can during the day.

My opinion is a PVS 14 opens up a really cool benefit of seeing IR and being able to walk around at night really well. And a thermal will blow your mind, you just won't be able to navigate with it.

You just have to choose what you will be doing more of right now. Hunting or walking/hiking/short range shooting?

I do more hunting from a stationary spot than anything so I went thermal first. I'd probably make the same choice, but now that I have both, I wouldn't like going back to just having one or the other. So choose what you will use MOST now and eventually get both.

Well I could have just kept going back and forth for months so I just jumped in and I have a breach and pvs14 coming. The 14 is at the house waiting on me to get back in town and the breach should be delivered today. Also Ordered single Mod3 L3WP but will be months before that comes in.
And will start saving for a thermal scope and hope to get it in about 6 months. Still leaning towards the Trail XP50 but will have time to agonize over which scope to get for months.

Thanks for all the great info.

I'll even contend that the acquisition and overall efficacy (hunting context) of the thermal jump from NV is greater than the white/green/red visible light jump to NV.  Caveats would be property size and terrain, but thermal is simply leaps better than NV.

NV certainly has its navigation and PID place....

Sorry try now.

I think I believe that. That's why I will be adding the xp50 as soon as I can. I really like the video I have seen really like the pip. I don't hunt much more of a security thing at first but once I get the xp50 the yotes might want to find another place to roam.

What thermal is that in that video Remington