Modifying DBAL A3 to increase IR Output

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Modifying DBAL A3 to increase IR Output (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 1/4/2019 1:01:01 AM EDT

DISCLAIMER: I know attempting modifying the device will VOID all factory warranty and may break device. Also, as far as I know it is illegal to SELL, but not possess a laser above the Class 3r/IIIa level.

Now with that out of the way......

I have a DBAL-A3 mounted on a rifle. While the visible and and IR pointers are great and plenty powerful, the class IIIa illumination has always had me wanting more. Does anyone know the methodology that LDI/Steiner uses to lower the IR illuminator output on the A3’s compared to the stronger class IIIb devices? I am thinking there could be some kind of IR filter installed in the lens element or some kind of poteniometer / resister lowering the voltage that the IR illuminator is receiving. Either one of those two things doesn’t sound too difficult to “adjust”.

My goal would be to have the “IR Low” setting have the IR pointer around .1mw and the Illuminator at 5wm and with the device in “IR High” have the pointer at .7mw and the illuminator around the 15mw range. Before I go ripping this thing open, I wanted to see if anyone had anymore knowledge to share.

I’ll try to let everyone know how this goes, but hopefully I can get some insight before surgery begins!

Thanks,
Paul

Posted: 1/4/2019 1:19:41 AM EDT

[#1]

From what I understand the internals are encased in epoxy/resin to improve water proofing and shock resistance. IMHO you'd be better off selling your A3 and buying a D2 which cost about the same amount.

Posted: 1/4/2019 2:21:28 AM EDT

[#2]

Not worth it IMO

Posted: 1/4/2019 10:43:44 AM EDT

[#3]

I'm guessing it's a different IR laser module.

You can buy IR laser modules for cheap off ebay, at all different power levels, including focusable lasers. I have no idea how high quality they are. I don't think I would attempt modifying a Steiner, but it might be fun/interesting to get an airsoft PEQ15 for 40 bucks and swap out the laser modules. I'm sure with enough effort you could get something working, worst case scenario you're only out 100 bucks or so.

That being said, be extremely careful messing around with high powered lasers. Eye damage is not reversible.

Posted: 1/4/2019 3:09:46 PM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'm guessing it's a different IR laser module.

You can buy IR laser modules for cheap off ebay, at all different power levels, including focusable lasers. I have no idea how high quality they are. I don't think I would attempt modifying a Steiner, but it might be fun/interesting to get an airsoft PEQ15 for 40 bucks and swap out the laser modules. I'm sure with enough effort you could get something working, worst case scenario you're only out 100 bucks or so.

That being said, be extremely careful messing around with high powered lasers. Eye damage is not reversible.

View Quote

It is also completely possible that the cheap airsoft PEQs coming out of SE Asia are using full powered illuminators with a readily removable filter in front. I seem to remember some time ago a user found one a PEQ airsoft clone that had just that.

Posted: 1/4/2019 4:10:50 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:

It is also completely possible that the cheap airsoft PEQs coming out of SE Asia are using full powered illuminators with a readily removable filter in front. I seem to remember some time ago a user found one a PEQ airsoft clone that had just that.

View Quote

i read that some where too. cant remember where tho. I have a dbal i2 that i would like to "adjust"

Posted: 1/4/2019 5:17:42 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:

It is also completely possible that the cheap airsoft PEQs coming out of SE Asia are using full powered illuminators with a readily removable filter in front. I seem to remember some time ago a user found one a PEQ airsoft clone that had just that.

View Quote

I would be surprised by that. I actually looked at picking one up a few months ago and looked at all of the options available on Aiexpress. None of them have IR illuminators at all, they typically have a visible and IR laser, and an LED flashlight where the illuminator normally goes. For the IR laser, its usually just a green laser with an IR filter. That very well may be high powered, I don't know. I just know that with all of the PEQ15's that are available today from China, there is no IR illuminator.

Also, maybe what they had available years ago is different than what's available now.

Posted: 1/4/2019 5:41:38 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

I would be surprised by that. I actually looked at picking one up a few months ago and looked at all of the options available on Aiexpress. None of them have IR illuminators at all, they typically have a visible and IR laser, and an LED flashlight where the illuminator normally goes. For the IR laser, its usually just a green laser with an IR filter. That very well may be high powered, I don't know. I just know that with all of the PEQ15's that are available today from China, there is no IR illuminator.

Also, maybe what they had available years ago is different than what's available now.

View Quote

I got one for mocking up on a gun to see how it looked/fit on the short handguard. I tried the "IR" laser under nods and it was just a small IR bulb. Not even a pointer.

I piss more IR light than those things put out.

Posted: 1/4/2019 5:50:18 PM EDT

[#8]

Just get a Perst-3 / D2 and be happy? Dunno if I'd risk the damage to the A3

Posted: 1/4/2019 6:00:48 PM EDT

[#9]

I may sacrifice the A3 to give this a shot. Like a lot of hobbies, this is one of those “shits & giggles” type of things as opposed to making economical sense.

I’ll try and get the silicone out of the screw holes and just see what is inside. If the entire inside is potted in epoxy, then there is no use in going any further, but if the inside is open I’ll start to poke around with a multimeter and figure out what is going on. I am hoping for relatively simple circuitry and no micro controllers.

For those who have had warranty repairs on your DBAL’s, did you receive the same unit with the same serial number in return?

Posted: 1/4/2019 6:09:16 PM EDT

[#10]

I wouldn't chance it. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

If you want full power get a PERST or gray market PEQ.

However, if you do play around and ruin it, I'd be interested in buying that broken unit.

Posted: 1/4/2019 6:18:26 PM EDT

[#11]

In all reality, I am curious. So I won't tell you not to

Just provide pictures!

Posted: 1/4/2019 6:51:24 PM EDT

[#12]

I’m in on this experiment. Although selling your a3 should get you close to a peq15 or one of the Russian laser/illuminators in the other thread. If you get find a legit way to modify the a3 you’ll make a lot of a3, i2 and d2 owners happy!

Posted: 1/4/2019 7:34:10 PM EDT

[#13]

I suspect they install a low power laser diode with an adjusted power-circuit.

There is a chance they just trimmed a potentiometer and that's that.

But even then, you'll need to get past the pesky epoxy.

There is guaranteed no optical filter added to lower the output, that just isn't the way to do it (causes ghost beams and all that and requires a redesign of the optical unit).

Posted: 1/4/2019 8:50:55 PM EDT

[#14]

Laser diodes have a very finite upper power limit. The 0.7mW LD that's in there has a driver that's adjusted such that it outputs 0.7mW. No matter what you tweak, the LD itself will die instantaneously once its limit is exceeded and that limit could be as low as a few mW. Tweaking it downward to 0.1mW may be impossible. Laser diodes have a lasing threshold. Below the lasing threshold, they're an expensive LED. Above the lasing threshold, they lase but at some arbitrary amount above zero power. Varies from diode to diode. Looking at some notes on an 800mW LD diode I played with, it outputted 2.7mW at the threshold. Yes, big LD, but even a small low power LD could be doing more than 0.1mW at threshold.

The big if is if the unit can be opened non-destructively with the innards being accessible. A PEQ can't, for example. I tried more than I should and gave up. Will eventually xray it to see if it's completely potted or just has epoxied seams. Wild guess is that your DBAL may be more user friendly in terms of access. Please follow up if you do manage to get it open. Would love to get a peek inside and I'd be glad to brainstorm any mods as well.

Posted: 1/5/2019 12:37:23 AM EDT

[#15]

OP make any progress?

im basically offended at the output of the civ garbage so short of buying more LA5s modding Dbals would be sweet.

Posted: 1/5/2019 1:14:16 AM EDT

[#16]

OK, the more I look at this from the outside, here is my theory regarding the IR illuminator. There is a neutral density filter installer forward of the optical lenses in the IR Illuminator. The filter lowers to emission of the IR laser to a class IIIa level, but the IR illuminator using the same diode as the mil-spec unit.

Here is why I have come up with this theory:

When I look at the IR and vis pointers from the front of the unit I can clearly see both laser diodes. This tells me that there is no ND filter installed in front of either the visible or IR pointers. So Steiner has either used a completely different laser driver for the IR pointer, or the driver that they use has a lasing threshold low enough to still operate at eye safe levels.

Now over to the IR illuminator. When I look down at the illuminator I can see what appears to be a ND filter in front of it. Additionally, when I compare the civilian A3 to pictures of the Mil-Spec one it appears that the focusing ring is a few mm’s longer on the civilian version. This additional length would allow for the ND filter to be installed. Also, since this is over the illuminator not the pointer, any optical issues from the ND filter wouldn’t cause too much of an issue as the beam isn’t near as focused.

Now on to the next steps.

First I need to figure out how to get the potting material out of the screw holes in order to get inside of the unit. From what I can see inside, I do not think that the insides of the device are potted in epoxy, just the screws. Once I get into the unit, I will see how the focusing ring on the illuminator is attached and remove it. This should pretty quickly let me know if my theory is correct. I could then make a replacemtn filter out of clear acrylic or some other material.

Posted: 1/5/2019 2:01:02 AM EDT

[#17]

I'm looking forward to your findings. I have a 6007 that could be sacrificed if needed

Posted: 1/5/2019 2:14:05 AM EDT

[#18]

The IR Illuminator focus ring on the A3 (I2) is captured by the detent that provides the adjustment clicks. I don't remember if the detent is held by a screw from the outside or is backed by the aluminum housing. My detent malfunctioned & it came the way off.

Posted: 1/5/2019 2:04:52 PM EDT

[#19]

I would love to see this work. I’ve been wondering about this for the last month. But... my professional knowledge has jack crap to do with electronics.

Posted: 1/5/2019 2:07:04 PM EDT

[#20]

If you're going to do this, we need pics. Lots of pictures!

Posted: 1/5/2019 3:06:55 PM EDT

[#21]

Attached File

In for results. Good luck OP.

Posted: 1/5/2019 4:18:44 PM EDT

[#22]

And we are in!! I’ll try to post up pictures later, but there is a small screw on the underside of the body toward the odjective end of the illluminator. This screw is potted with epoxy. Using a pencil tip on a soldering iron I removed the epoxy and could access a small flat head screw. This screw is holds in the detention for the Illuminator focusing mechanism. After removing the screw the entire Illuminator focusing mechanism can be removed. I can now see the bare Laser for the Illuminator.

I believe that if I can get the Illuminator lens set for a full power unit, you could swap them easily. Tonight I am going to power on the unit without the lens assembly on the Illuminator (while pointing in a safe direction). If my theory is correct. My “illuminator” will now be a SUPER powerful pointer.

Posted: 1/5/2019 6:19:29 PM EDT

[#23]

in like Flynn

Posted: 1/5/2019 7:05:14 PM EDT

[#24]

Anyone have a schematic of the Dbal internals?

Posted: 1/5/2019 8:22:43 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
Anyone have a schematic of the Dbal internals?

View Quote

Doubt it. Also I'd bet money it's also ITAR controlled.

Posted: 1/5/2019 9:07:04 PM EDT

[#26]

Some amount of improvement ay be gained by tweaking the focusing mechanism on the illuminator. It won't really focus down to a tight beam (which would concentrate the output without requiring more output). Might be a startingplace to work on. I'll say this... if you come up with a legit solution I'll chip in some $ to offset your research costs.

The illuminators on the civ lasers (other than the MAWL) are crap past 100 yards.

Posted: 1/5/2019 11:16:06 PM EDT

[#27]

Well everyone, Bad news..

There seems to be zero difference in light output of the illuminator without the focusing assembly. This tells me that my theory was incorrect. There is not a full power laser diode in the illuminator side. What looks like and ND filter must allow IR through it just fine. The next step will be to figure out how to totally disassemble the unit and see if the drivers can be upgraded to something more powerful.

Posted: 1/6/2019 12:03:05 AM EDT

[#28]

At least you're on the right track. After opening it up follow the illuminator back on the circuit board maybe it an be something as simple as a resistor keeping it at .7mw

Posted: 1/6/2019 2:08:25 AM EDT

[#29]

Ah hell, in for science. More pics OP!

Posted: 1/6/2019 11:01:32 PM EDT

[#30]

I noticed the filter on the illuminator as well and hoped that replacing it with a clear lens would wake it up the same as the Luna illuminator.

Are you sure that the output isn't increased but it just floods more without the lens?

Posted: 1/8/2019 7:32:39 PM EDT

[#31]

Updates?

Posted: 1/14/2019 10:49:40 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Updates?

View Quote

Here here

Posted: 1/19/2019 11:03:32 AM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well everyone, Bad news..

There seems to be zero difference in light output of the illuminator without the focusing assembly. This tells me that my theory was incorrect. There is not a full power laser diode in the illuminator side. What looks like and ND filter must allow IR through it just fine. The next step will be to figure out how to totally disassemble the unit and see if the drivers can be upgraded to something more powerful.

View Quote

Dang. I was getting exciting reading up to this point. Have an I2 an the illuminator leaves much to be desired.

Posted: 1/19/2019 11:36:48 AM EDT

[#34]

Any way to tighten the focus? I think the ability to tighten the focus you’ll solve most issues.

Posted: 1/19/2019 1:28:46 PM EDT

[#35]

Any thoughts on how a magnifier would work? IIRC TNVCs torch/II will accept USGI 3X magnifiers which increases the range.

Posted: 1/19/2019 1:32:47 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
Any thoughts on how a magnifier would work? IIRC TNVCs torch/II will accept USGI 3X magnifiers which increases the range.

View Quote

I messed around with the torch IR & USGI 3x thing; it will sling IR way out there

Posted: 1/19/2019 11:21:36 PM EDT

[#37]

Class III needs to be legal

tyrannical BS

Posted: 1/21/2019 11:43:39 AM EDT

[#38]

I know it has been said before, but class 3 really isn't that much more awesome, it just blooms more at close range. Unless you are using it to call in airstrikes, I think the civi D2 or MAWL is more than adequate in the illuminator department. Not sure if there is a better class 3 illuminator though. As far as lasers go, I would rather have the MAWL laser.

Posted: 1/21/2019 11:56:00 AM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
I know it has been said before, but class 3 really isn't that much more awesome, it just blooms more at close range. Unless you are using it to call in airstrikes, I think the civi D2 or MAWL is more than adequate in the illuminator department. Not sure if there is a better class 3 illuminator though. As far as lasers go, I would rather have the MAWL laser.

View Quote

It's the illuminator that we want more out of. In some scenarios a focusable, aimable laser illuminator works where everything else does not.

Posted: 1/21/2019 12:00:50 PM EDT

[#40]

A while back the D bals had a problem with parasitic drain and Insight took them back to fix that.

When I got mine back it have been modified so that it is more powerful. The bad part is the parasitic drain is still there.

Posted: 1/21/2019 12:43:36 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
OK, the more I look at this from the outside, here is my theory regarding the IR illuminator. There is a neutral density filter installer forward of the optical lenses in the IR Illuminator. The filter lowers to emission of the IR laser to a class IIIa level, but the IR illuminator using the same diode as the mil-spec unit.

...

View Quote

Doubt they’re just filtering a high power beam down. I’m pretty sure if there was a diode pumping IIIb/IV+ levels in there at all, the unit has to have warning stickers saying as much. It’s not only about what the aperature is emitting. For example, cd/dvd players often have stickers and they don’t “emit” anything outside of the device. If the sticker is labeled IIIa, then the diode is pumping IIIa at that wavelength.

You’re going to need a new micro-sized current limiting DC-DC driver and more than likely a new diode. I doubt they’re putting full power diodes in there. Monetarily and functionionally (minimumnlasing thresholds and Lowe efficiency) it doesn’t make sense to underdrive a $$$ diode. No worries though, High power diodes are easy to buy in a multitude of wavelengths online with supplied current and filtering specs.

Use ESD protection... bee diodes are easy to unintentionally kill with static.

Posted: 1/21/2019 1:07:06 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
At least you're on the right track. After opening it up follow the illuminator back on the circuit board maybe it an be something as simple as a resistor keeping it at .7mw

View Quote

No. If it’s a solid state laser diode, it will have current limiting circuit. The forward voltage of a laser diode is not constant so a resistor is not directly limiting the current (ie: it is not an ohmic device). Once the threshold forward voltage and current are met and coherent amplified light is produced (known as the lasing threshold), both the Vf and optical output will continuously increase at some proportion with current until the current produces thermal failure (overheating) or critical overvoltage kills it (dielectric breakdown).

The circuit your looking for will be extremely similar to an LED flashlight circuit except with better output capacitor filtering. The simplest you can hope for is an LM317 type IC wired for CC control.

Google “LM317 Laser Driver” and research to learn about how to diagnose and modify it... assuming it’s an LM IC based control.

For the diode go to Thorlabs and buy one or two bare diodes. Determine the form factor that your unit houses and then shop those model diodes for the power and wavelength you want. Pay attention to whether you want single mode or multi lose output. If it’s an Illuminati, either is probably fine. Don’t go crazy on power unless the cooling in your unit supports it. Use ESD ppe.

Posted: 1/21/2019 4:00:04 PM EDT

[#43]

Sorry for the lack of updates, I am a tax attorney and work will keep me too busy to experimenting until May.

Posted: 1/21/2019 5:22:55 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
I know it has been said before, but class 3 really isn't that much more awesome, it just blooms more at close range. Unless you are using it to call in airstrikes, I think the civi D2 or MAWL is more than adequate in the illuminator department. Not sure if there is a better class 3 illuminator though. As far as lasers go, I would rather have the MAWL laser.

View Quote

I disagree. My LA5s are straight baller.

The MAWL is overpriced

Posted: 3/1/2019 12:43:31 AM EDT

[#45]

OK, I got this thing apart! The diodes ARE NOT coming out so replacing the diode itself is out. They are completely potted with some kind of glue and are not moving.

I have a mechanical engineering background so circuits have never really been my thing, but each diode has 3 leads coming off of it which go to a simple looking PCB with what appears to be an Analog Devices voltage regulator. 4 leads are coming into the small PCB and there is one of these small PCB’s for diode.

The numbers of the voltage regulator for the pointers seem to be the same, but I cannot find any part from the numbers. “448 03 1635”. The IR illuminator has a different voltage regulator and the numbers on it are “318 03 1635”. For anyone smarter than me and willing to help, I can send you pictures of the insides of the DBAL A3.

Hopefully we are making progress on de-neutering the DBAL!

Thanks,
Paul

Posted: 3/1/2019 12:58:08 AM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:

No. If it’s a solid state laser diode, it will have current limiting circuit. The forward voltage of a laser diode is not constant so a resistor is not directly limiting the current (ie: it is not an ohmic device). Once the threshold forward voltage and current are met and coherent amplified light is produced (known as the lasing threshold), both the Vf and optical output will continuously increase at some proportion with current until the current produces thermal failure (overheating) or critical overvoltage kills it (dielectric breakdown).

The circuit your looking for will be extremely similar to an LED flashlight circuit except with better output capacitor filtering. The simplest you can hope for is an LM317 type IC wired for CC control.

Google “LM317 Laser Driver” and research to learn about how to diagnose and modify it... assuming it’s an LM IC based control.

For the diode go to Thorlabs and buy one or two bare diodes. Determine the form factor that your unit houses and then shop those model diodes for the power and wavelength you want. Pay attention to whether you want single mode or multi lose output. If it’s an Illuminati, either is probably fine. Don’t go crazy on power unless the cooling in your unit supports it. Use ESD ppe.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

No. If it’s a solid state laser diode, it will have current limiting circuit. The forward voltage of a laser diode is not constant so a resistor is not directly limiting the current (ie: it is not an ohmic device). Once the threshold forward voltage and current are met and coherent amplified light is produced (known as the lasing threshold), both the Vf and optical output will continuously increase at some proportion with current until the current produces thermal failure (overheating) or critical overvoltage kills it (dielectric breakdown).

The circuit your looking for will be extremely similar to an LED flashlight circuit except with better output capacitor filtering. The simplest you can hope for is an LM317 type IC wired for CC control.

Google “LM317 Laser Driver” and research to learn about how to diagnose and modify it... assuming it’s an LM IC based control.

For the diode go to Thorlabs and buy one or two bare diodes. Determine the form factor that your unit houses and then shop those model diodes for the power and wavelength you want. Pay attention to whether you want single mode or multi lose output. If it’s an Illuminati, either is probably fine. Don’t go crazy on power unless the cooling in your unit supports it. Use ESD ppe.

Hopefully you can help the OP unneuter his A3. On a side note is your screen name originally from A.O.?

Quoted:
OK, I got this thing apart! The diodes ARE NOT coming out so replacing the diode itself is out. They are completely potted with some kind of glue and are not moving.

I have a mechanical engineering background so circuits have never really been my thing, but each diode has 3 leads coming off of it which go to a simple looking PCB with what appears to be an Analog Devices voltage regulator. 4 leads are coming into the small PCB and there is one of these small PCB’s for diode.

The numbers of the voltage regulator for the pointers seem to be the same, but I cannot find any part from the numbers. “448 03 1635”. The IR illuminator has a different voltage regulator and the numbers on it are “318 03 1635”. For anyone smarter than me and willing to help, I can send you pictures of the insides of the DBAL A3.

Hopefully we are making progress on de-neutering the DBAL!

Thanks,
Paul

Paul, Awesome glad you're still trying to figure this out. Hopefully Pneumagger or someone else can lead you in the right direction.

Posted: 3/1/2019 2:38:06 AM EDT

[#47]

Where are the pics?

Posted: 3/1/2019 3:03:16 AM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
OK, I got this thing apart! The diodes ARE NOT coming out so replacing the diode itself is out. They are completely potted with some kind of glue and are not moving.

I have a mechanical engineering background so circuits have never really been my thing, but each diode has 3 leads coming off of it which go to a simple looking PCB with what appears to be an Analog Devices voltage regulator. 4 leads are coming into the small PCB and there is one of these small PCB’s for diode.

The numbers of the voltage regulator for the pointers seem to be the same, but I cannot find any part from the numbers. “448 03 1635”. The IR illuminator has a different voltage regulator and the numbers on it are “318 03 1635”. For anyone smarter than me and willing to help, I can send you pictures of the insides of the DBAL A3.

Hopefully we are making progress on de-neutering the DBAL!

Thanks,
Paul

View Quote

Glad someone dived in! Would love to see some pics.

Those part numbers don't ring any bells. Could be very common parts just with house markings instead.

What you describe sounds about right tho. Typically laser diodes in that form factor (TO-46 case or something similar) have three leads. Laser diode and photodiode (for feedback) sharing a common lead. The regulator adjusts the LD current in proportion to the feedback from the PD. The LD itself has a fundamental upper power output limit before damage occurs. While it's possible relatively high power LDs are used and are run at lower levels, I kinda doubt it. Above a certain power level, the feedback photodiode becomes less common.