This is embarrassing to even post, but has this ever happened to anyone else?  

Was obviously due to a an over pressure issue, despite trying my hardest to do things right.  Photos are from the very last load I tested in my 308 AR, which will need thorough inspection now (one primer survived and the other somehow ended up the bolt lugs and got mangled).  The rounds didn't seem really "hot" so there wasn't any sort of indicator I could tell upon firing.  I was trying to observe pressure signs on each successive load, and it seems that these Winchester Large Rifle primers get pretty flat even on starting loads (same with the IMR 4064 loads I ran today).  Light ejector swipe is present even on factory rounds, so seeing it wasn't a huge concern.  

I ran 5 sets of loads from 46.6gr of CFE223 to 47.4gr, which is where this failure occurred.  My RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale was sitting in the same spot with same settings when I came home, and I reverified the 47.4gr with my Hornady digital scale  the variance was less than .1gr.  Hodgdon's starting load for this is 46.6gr and goes all the way out to 49gr, so I thought I would be within a safe margin.  What's confusing is that they list a start velocity of 2662 fps coming out of a 24" barrel, and mine averaged 2719 fps out of my 18" (this should've been my first sign that things weren't adding up, and was alrighty on the warm side of things).  My final 47.4gr load averaged 2760fps, while Hodgdon's max load of 49gr was listed at 2828fps out of a 24" barrel.  I'm getting the impression that CFE223 is a bit of a squirrely powder (its temp sensitive, and the pressure curve may not be ideal for semi-auto 308s either).  Due to that, I don't think I'll use it in my .308 anymore  hopefully the other 5+ pounds of it that I have will work better for .223.

What is the primary cause here?  Starline case capacity? Hodgdon's tested Sierra HPBT vs my Hornady?  Ambient temperatures?  Winchester large rifle primer issue (found a lot of mention about this)?  All of the above?  Anyway, I obviously made a big mistake that needs to be corrected, and I'll definitely be backing down if I try CFE223 again.

At this point, I hope I didn't damage my rifle but I suppose it could've been worse.  Also what should I inspect on my 308 AR to make sure no harm was done?  I should add, the bolt was correctly head spaced with go/no go/field gauges during assembly.

Load Specs:
Starline .308 Brass
WLR primer
Hodgdon CFE223
Hornady 168gr BTHP Match
Sized all brass and trimmed/chamfered to 2.005 prior to loading
Seated to 2.800 COAL
All charges trickled

Case heads:
Attached File


The one intact primer I found (black lines on cases are Sharpie marks I use to indicate load):
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Do you know the free-bore length and throat angle of your barrel?  Is it custom or factory?

What gas-tube length does your rifle have?

Semi-auto throws a bit of a wrench into diagnosis by photos of fired case heads alone but the same thing happened to me with my first 6.5 Grendel. You might start with checking your OAL. I'm betting that what you have is not enough jump and you're jamming the bullet into the lands. When I've gone by book loads on AR's and loaded to max mag friendly length without checking jump, I usually have pressure signs. I think the throats might be intentionally short so you don't have mile long jumps which helps accuracy but if you load too close to the edge you don't get enough bullet inertia to smoothly engrave into the rifling and it plugs for a microsecond allowing pressures to build up too high.

Take a round without any powder and use a lighter or candle to smoke the bullet, then drop it into the chamber and then let the bolt go into battery. Eject the round and look for signs of rifling contact. If you see lines going lengthwise on the bullet, that's it. Reduce COAL until you don't have that and then .010 further.

I think your biggest problem is that Hodgdon online data uses Winchester brass and you used Starline.
Case:Winchester
Twist:1:12.000"
Primer:Federal 210M, Large Rifle Match
Barrel Length:24.000"
Trim Length:2.005"

Apples and Oranges.

The prudent thing is that you make consider backing down a FULL 10% and working the load up in 0.5gr increments looking for pressure as there NO way to cross reference powder charges for different brass makers.  

That is where your issue probably came from

Had it happen to me with Lil'Gun and 300blk.  Using a different 125 grain bullet than shown in the data.  Popped a primer and extruded the case into the extractor.

It happens sometimes, this is why we start low and work up in increments.

Handloader magazine had an article a few years back exploring the difference between bullets of the same weight.  Some very subtle things can change pressures substantially, such as the ductibility of the copper jacket and underlying bullet construction, all the way to the very obvious differences in bearing length.  Suffice to say you can't assume you'll get the same pressure as tested just because the bullet weighs the same.

I'm not positive about free-bore length or throat angle.  It's a Wilson Combat 18" Ultimate Hunter, 11.25" twist.

Thanks, I'll run that test and report back!

Yep, very well could be.  After researching, it seems that Starline brass is a bit thicker than some.

What's odd is that on my IMR4064 loads yesterday, I used Hodgdon's data and it tracked pretty much right on with my velocities despite them using the Winchester case and Sierra HPBT (my velocities were actually lower which I assumed was from barrel length). Still, different powders behave differently, so I should've done a better job of taking those factors into account.

It happens. Learn from it and move on.

Dat ain't nothing bro.  Is your rifle overgassed?  Have you chrono'd the loads.  I will go back and read closer in a second.

This is from an overgassed rifle that everyone on this forum told me was over pressure:

Just look at those ejector swipes:



Some cases actually had bent rims from the extractor.

First I re-weighed some samples.  Next I bought a Magnetospeed and chrono'd my loads.  Then I bought an adjustable SLR gas block. Problem solved.

Tell us more about your rifle?  What brand?  What gas length?  Do you know the gas port size?

Same powder in a 308 Auto.  Could it be the powder? https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/weird-pressures-with-cfe-223.888029/
Or over gased?

This is a sign of to much powder-  "Some cases actually had bent rims from the extractor."

At least you are  OK & hopefully your rifle is salvageable.  

When your start loads make the same velocity as a 6” longer barrel, you need to reevaluate your situation.

IIRC I top out around 2700fps for a 165-169gr depending on powder and specific bullet, but that’s where it falls, out of a 20” barrel.

I don’t have my data handy but that charge range sounds pretty high compared to my actual testing with CFE.

I too had pressure issues with CFE223 in .308 with what was listed as a near starting load.  Clear signs of pressure and a couple of blown primers.  I pulled the remainder of the loads.  My powder load weight was correct.

This rifle was great with Varget, IMR4064, IMR 4895, etc. using the same bullet, OAL, brass and primers.

I use CFE in other calibers with good success but I won't use it in .308.

YMMV.

Winchester commercial .308 brass is the lightest weight and highest internal capacity of any on the market. That allows for higher powder charges while still maintaining safe pressures. Every other brand has less internal capacity and needs to have their powder charges reduced accordingly. I have never used Starline in .308, but your loads seems high to me even when using Winchester.

A 10% reduction from Hodgdon's maximum would be over 3.5 grains lower than where you started. .308 brass has the widest variations of any caliber on the market. Because the military version in 7.62x51mm is commonly available once fired you are dealing with unprimed brass that can weigh anywhere between 155 grains (Winchester) to over 180 grains (Lake City and especially foreign 7.62x51mm).

Weigh a new, unprimed Starline case to discover where it sits between these two extremes. I always suggest Hornady's "Service Rifle" .308 data because it works great in semi-auto rifles and won't cause problems with stressed brass. .308 semi-auto rifles are hard on brass because the amount of gas needed to run the action needs to be balanced so you aren't ripping the cases out of the chamber under pressure. The action and bolt lugs can handle the pressure just fine, it's the brass that suffers when you try to run bolt gun loads.

Using powders on the faster range of available data helps, it reduces port pressure and allows the case to contract a little more easing extraction. IMR-3031, H4895, IMR-8208 are top choices. I never use anything slower than RE-15 or Varget.

Your load may have ruined your firing pin, inspect it carefully and the bolt lugs for cracks. Online book stores sell an old NRA publication titled "Semi-Auto Rifles - Data & Comment" and it has a treasure trove of reloading data using Lake City surplus brass and a variety of match bullets. Close to 1000 rounds were pressure tested to create the data base. I consider it the bible for reloading AR-10's or M1-A's.

Yep, like I mentioned in my first post, CFE223 kind of strikes me as a squirrelly powder in my gun so I don't think I'll be using it anymore for this one.  I've got over 5 lbs of this stuff now, so hopefully it works better in .223.  Or maybe someone locally to me will trade for something else...I'm really not liking it.

pfft... wait till you try reloading 224 Valkrie.  popped primers are normal.  

My 308 AR likes to pop a primer every now and again if its an older piece of brass or its 1 of my hotter loads.  the worse part is when the primer somehow wedges itself between the lugs and barrel.

Thanks, this is all great info!  I just weighed a piece of my new Starline and it came in at 174.6gr, so definitely on the heavy side.  Just snagged a couple pounds of 8208 XBR off Midsouth a few minutes ago, so hopefully that burn rate is a bit more suitable for my rifle.

I think my rifle is OK luckily.  Here are a couple photos.  I did a rough cleaning with some Hoppe's solvent, but I still need to get some of the brass residue off (this is from prior shooting and not from this event - the ejector was scraping brass shavings off and the residue was on the bolt face).  I bolt lugs seem OK, but some minor scraping of the coating which I assuming is normal.  One thing I do see is a small ring on the bolt face which is likely from primer leakage - I can barely feel it with my fingernail.  Is this OK?  Thanks again!

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Thanks - while I don't wish this issue on anybody, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.  Yes, I was using my Magnetospeed and they were definitely a bit spicey - last load that blew the primers out averaged 2767 fps across 3 rounds.

Rifle is an Aero Precision M5 Upper/Lower, rifle length buffer/tube/spring, Aero BCG, Wilson Combat Ultimate Hunter 18" barrel @ 11.25" twist with rifle length gas (gas port is about .082 from what I recall), Wojtek adjustable gas block, Geissele SSA-E trigger, Midwest 15" Handguard, Hogue Grip/Stock, and a SiCo ASR muzzle brake.

Running through some bulk Federal XM80 yesterday before switching over to handloads:
Attached File

I loaded some 155 gr Hornady BTHP with it and dropped down to 46.6 before I felt okay with it in my AR and FAL.

Yep, that's the data I was using, and I would caution anyone to start lower than what Hodgdon recommends (with CFE223 at least).  What's interesting is that I was also running some IMR 4064 loads with Hodgdon recommended charges and all other factors identical to my CFE 223 loads (bullet, case, primer COAL) - they performed pretty much as the data said they should.  I'm guessing CFE223 may just be much, much more sensitive to case volume/primer/bullet type changes.

You're fine.

Popped primers aren't a good thing, but it's not the end of the world.

It also seems to happen in semi-autos more often than bolt actions.  A hot load is usually the case, but it can be too much gas or too light a recoil spring/buffer that can cause the bolt to unlock early.

I wanted to thank everyone for the information. I have a 308 ar and have not had this problem (I don't use CFE223 either) but this thread reminds me to be aware of case capacity, powder choice, charge weight, seating depth etc.
If you have prevented someone (me) from having an accident you have done your job.
Glad Your OK! Thanks for passing this along

Glad you took the time to read it!  If it helps even just one person do a better/safer job at reloading, then I'm happy.  For now, I'm leaving the CFE223 for .223/5.56, and I'll stick with other powders for the .308.  In addition to the IMR 4064, I've also got 2 new powders to work with (IMR 8208 XBR and H4895), so hopefully I get good results from these as well.

I didn't see this mentioned (may have missed it), but Hornady has some data for their 168gr BTHP Match bullet and CFE23.

Hornady doesn't list CFE223 for the 168gr BTHP Match in their .308 Winchester service rifle data.  

Hornady does list CFE223 for the Hornady 168gr BTHP Match bullet in their general .308 Winchester cartridge data, and the max load is 47.2 gr.  So the load of 47.4 was above Hornady's max, and variances in brass/chamber/etc. could have contributed to creating a high pressure.

Yep, I noticed that after I purchased the .308 data on my Hornady app.  I'd be really curious to see what someone's results are with Hodgdon's exact load data (46.6gr-49gr CFE223, 168SMK, Win brass, Fed 210M primer).  Not saying they're wrong, but it just seems like a huge difference from my results.  Like I mentioned before, their IMR4064 data uses the exact same components, and my velocities using the Hornady 168 BTHP tracked along pretty well with theirs in that case.