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Posted: 8/9/2020 4:38:13 PM EDT
I am new to reloading but still have quite a few hours under my belt with 223. I have bumped my shoulder back .005 and went ahead and tested it in my rifle. The bolt does not close on its own,but with a little push of the op rod. Slams home just fine on an empty case and ejects fine. Am I GTG resizing the rest of the cases? Thanks
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 4:44:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2020 4:45:15 PM EDT by Derek45]
not in my opinion.

the rounds should chamber, and eject ( live round) with the same ease as factory ammo.

.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 5:00:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2020 5:12:47 PM EDT by StanleySpidowski]
ok I will compare a resized one with a factory one.I did the test and the resized case chambers with just a bit less force on the op rod than the loaded factory round. Both LC 16s.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 5:06:29 PM EDT
Get a Dillion case gauge. It’s right 100% of the time. Also know the m1a will kill brass fairly quickly. You’ll need to check for head separation often on your fired cases.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 5:13:48 PM EDT
I have the hornady comparator and zeroed it .005 less than a fired case.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 5:16:28 PM EDT
M1-A's stretch brass longer than their actual headspace should allow. The case is being yanked out of the chamber while still under pressure.

I bump my shoulders on gas guns (all of them, AR-10's included) to SAAMI minimum -.001". I use gages (Mo DeFina's or Hornady's Lock-N-Load) and a PTG .308 go-gage.

Military brass (Lake City/IMI) requires a two full grain reduction in powder charges.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 5:19:27 PM EDT
If it closes easy after the extractor snaps over the rim, and extracts easy, gtg.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 5:31:34 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ark-and-spark:
Get a Dillion case gauge. It's right 100% of the time. Also know the m1a will kill brass fairly quickly. You'll need to check for head separation often on your fired cases.
View Quote
This , get a case gauge.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 5:54:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2020 5:58:08 PM EDT by SteelonSteel]
or strip the bolt of its extractor and ejector.   Hint- a .30-06 case works nicely in the chamber, close bolt on the case, flip gun upside down and tap out the extractor,  assemble in reverse.  

Try it in the chamber that way.  Right bolt lug should be at rest on the right frame.   That said a lot of Springields are resting on the roller because the receiver’s roller clearance cut is insufficient.   Mine was.  I dremmeled the clearance deep enough to clear the roller.  Don’t do this unless you are prepared to recut your chamber to headspace.  As the bolt rotates down it closes tighter headspace wise.  


you can put a double tape cap on the sized case to simulate headpace needed.  Should be about two thousandths thickness a piece of tape.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 6:08:31 PM EDT
If the bolt does not close easily on a resized case, your sizing die is not properly set up.

You may need to strip the bolt to check this or just learn to do it without stripping the bolt.

If 5 mils doesn't do it, try 6 mils, etc.  

Where is the case getting hung up, headspace or at the base (scuff marks)?  Any chance you have machine gun brass with blown out cases?
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 6:11:25 PM EDT
I have a case gauge for every round I load.. IMO, you need dillon case gauges.


Link Posted: 8/9/2020 6:15:57 PM EDT
I hear this bumping the shoulder back thing a lot.  I take my Forster size die and set it for slight cam-over.  I size my cases and then trim.  Then I check with my Sheridan case gauge.  These .308 cases fit in all the things.  

If this bump shoulder thing isn't working out for you, and it seems like plenty of folks have issues with it, then just forget it and do some cam-over size die things with proper quality dies.


Link Posted: 8/9/2020 6:17:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ark-and-spark:
Get a Dillion case gauge. It's right 100% of the time. Also know the m1a will kill brass fairly quickly. You'll need to check for head separation often on your fired cases.
View Quote
No.  Sheridan is better.  Dillon is OK for go no go on case length for trim or no trim decisions.  If you want to know if a loaded case will chamber............Sheridan every time.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 7:02:51 PM EDT
Thanks for the suggestions,I will consider all of them.If you have any Varget loads for 150 SMKs Id like to hear them.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 7:57:47 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StanleySpidowski:
Thanks for the suggestions,I will consider all of them.If you have any Varget loads for 150 SMKs Id like to hear them.
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You'll have to say what brass you are using before anyone can give you load suggestions.
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 9:00:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2020 9:10:58 PM EDT by bobo06]
Not to hi jack the op's thread but i just started loading for a new M1A standard. 40.0 IMR 4064, 168 smk, lc 09 brass and win lr primers.
My question is. Is it normal for primers to flatten on a semi auto. Started at 38.5 and worked up to 40. All had flattened primers. Never had this issue in any of my bolt guns

The federal gold medal match i shot looked identical
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 11:00:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:


You'll have to say what brass you are using before anyone can give you load suggestions.
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LC16
Link Posted: 8/9/2020 11:10:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2020 12:18:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StanleySpidowski:

LC16
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Weigh half a dozen empty unprimed cases to get an average weight. Some military brass can weigh over 180 grains empty and unprimed. Winchester brand commercial brass can weigh as little as 155 grains. Huge difference in internal case capacity. If your brass weighs180 grains 43.5 to 44 grains of Varget will be close to a maximum load in a bolt action. I would start around 42.0 +/- with 150 bullets and work up in .5 grain increments. Look for reliable function and the smallest groups on target.

If you have a chronograph 2700 fps is a good working range for 150 grain bullets fired from a M1-A.
Link Posted: 8/10/2020 12:24:45 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bobo06:
Not to hi jack the op's thread but i just started loading for a new M1A standard. 40.0 IMR 4064, 168 smk, lc 09 brass and win lr primers.
My question is. Is it normal for primers to flatten on a semi auto. Started at 38.5 and worked up to 40. All had flattened primers. Never had this issue in any of my bolt guns

The federal gold medal match i shot looked identical
View Quote


IMR-4064 starts to flattens primers (Winchester STD. Large rifle) with 40.7 grain loads in Lake City brass using 168 grain SMK's in my M1-A's. Velocity around 2500 fps. I consider this a maximum load using these components. I believe it's something unique to this load combination. I don't see this when using IMR or H4895 at the same velocity.
Link Posted: 8/10/2020 5:30:07 AM EDT
FWIW- PMC .308 Win brass is good for 1 reload (2 firings total) then probably needs to be scrapped.
My M1A started getting case head separations on 2nd reload (3rd firing) of this brass.
Link Posted: 8/10/2020 10:59:05 AM EDT
If you haven't stripped the bolt down, that chambering test is meaningless.
Link Posted: 8/10/2020 11:46:10 AM EDT
M M1-A's were really picky about having the brass all trimmed and deburred.  I would trim to 2.0".  Be careful with powder selection as fast powders have the wrong pressure curve.
Link Posted: 8/13/2020 10:09:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bobo06:
Not to hi jack the op's thread but i just started loading for a new M1A standard. 40.0 IMR 4064, 168 smk, lc 09 brass and win lr primers.
My question is. Is it normal for primers to flatten on a semi auto. Started at 38.5 and worked up to 40. All had flattened primers. Never had this issue in any of my bolt guns

The federal gold medal match i shot looked identical
View Quote




just tossing this out there....excess headspace will look similar with flat primers but may not have high pressure at all.


In the M14 you have a spring loaded ejector that is pushing on the chambered round holding the shoulder to the chamber shoulder.  All your excess headspace is between the case head and the bolt face.  When fired the primer unseats due to pressure building and stops on the bolt face, then a microsecond later the pressure forces the case head back reseating the primer under pressure.  This is where you get the mushrooming of the primer cup and that blanked out primer look.  

I shoot for 0.004” free headspace in my autoloading rifles.  


Not saying your gun isn’t over pressure but to look at it all before coming to a conculsion.
Link Posted: Today 12:19:13 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:


Weigh half a dozen empty unprimed cases to get an average weight. Some military brass can weigh over 180 grains empty and unprimed. Winchester brand commercial brass can weigh as little as 155 grains. Huge difference in internal case capacity. If your brass weighs180 grains 43.5 to 44 grains of Varget will be close to a maximum load in a bolt action. I would start around 42.0 +/- with 150 bullets and work up in .5 grain increments. Look for reliable function and the smallest groups on target.

If you have a chronograph 2700 fps is a good working range for 150 grain bullets fired from a M1-A.
View Quote

Average of ten cases was 176.49grains. I do not have a chrony. Please advise,thanks
Link Posted: Today 1:17:35 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StanleySpidowski:

Average of ten cases was 176.49grains. I do not have a chrony. Please advise,thanks
View Quote


I would treat your brass the same as Lake City 7.62x51mm. NRA lists a maximum load of 41.5 grains with 168 grain bullets seated at 2.800". That was using the older Winchester primers with nickel plating. New (15 years old and newer) no longer have nickel plating and can't hold pressure as well as the originals.

40.5 grains of IMR-4895
40.0 grains of H4895
43.0 grains of WW-748
40.5 grains of AA-2460
39.0 grains if IMR-3031

Are all listed maximum powder charges with 168's. As normal reloading practice dictates at least a couple of grain reduction to start. I consider .4 to .5 grain increment increases prudent when watching for pressure signs and checking groups on target.

I have found either 4895 to work great. They shoot small groups over a wide powder charge window and reliably run the gun.

Modern powders like:
41.5 grains of VihtaVuori N150
40.5 grains of VihtaVuori N140
40.5 grains of Varget
41.0 grains if RE-15
41.0 grains of Norma 203B

All work great with 168's in military brass as well.

Again, start lower, work up.
Link Posted: Today 2:52:24 PM EDT
Im starting with 150SMKs and Varget. Thanks for the guidance.
Link Posted: Today 4:18:14 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:


I would treat your brass the same as Lake City 7.62x51mm. NRA lists a maximum load of 41.5 grains with 168 grain bullets seated at 2.800". That was using the older Winchester primers with nickel plating. New (15 years old and newer) no longer have nickel plating and can't hold pressure as well as the originals.

40.5 grains of IMR-4895
40.0 grains of H4895
43.0 grains of WW-748
40.5 grains of AA-2460
39.0 grains if IMR-3031

Are all listed maximum powder charges with 168's. As normal reloading practice dictates at least a couple of grain reduction to start. I consider .4 to .5 grain increment increases prudent when watching for pressure signs and checking groups on target.

I have found either 4895 to work great. They shoot small groups over a wide powder charge window and reliably run the gun.

Modern powders like:
41.5 grains of VihtaVuori N150
40.5 grains of VihtaVuori N140
40.5 grains of Varget
41.0 grains if RE-15
41.0 grains of Norma 203B

All work great with 168's in military brass as well.

Again, start lower, work up.
View Quote


Hodgdon shows current start load for 168gr/IMR-4064 as 41.5gr and max as 43.9gr in Winchester cases with Federal 210M primers.  I loaded 41.5gr IMR-4064 with 168gr bullets in LC Match cases and WLR primers for many years without issue, with both the older nickel plated primers and the current brass ones.
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