I know the market is very soft from the few things I have managed to pick up over the last year and now I'm looking for a RR shooter condition, ideally small pin.  I know this is a stretch but looking for $17k or less, ideally on a Form 3 so i can prey that it clears before the next election.  I dont really care what condition the finish is in, if it includes anything else, hell a stripped receiver would be 110% a-ok with me.

I figure what better way to find such a thing than to ping the arfcom internet wizards, I have scoured my sources and am now considering paying a bounty via PP or Venmo for the person that finds such an item.

A search of the EE NFA section has these:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/equipment-exchange/FS-Colt-SP1-RR-M16/118-1936878/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/equipment-exchange/Frankford-Arsenal-SGW-Oly-M16-21K/118-1940777/

$250 over budget...and it’s an SP1 conversion. M60Joe can handle the front push pin conversion I believe.

http://www.nfasales.com/nfawp/product/colt-m16/

Attached File

M60Joe has been out of the game for sometime now...

I’m sure someone out there could do a front push pin conversion if the screw bothers you.

My only advice is get exactly what you want because you may never have the opportunity to upgrade

Sure saving $1000 because it is a large pan front may seem like a good idea but if you're the kind of person that it would bother I would say just do it right the first time.

Although you may be fortunate enough to buy it such a good price that you could sell it later and transition into what you really want do not count on it

I am not aware of anybody converting SP1s to a push pin as the SP1s lack the fence on the side of the receiver where the push pin detent pin/spring is located.

M60Joe used to convert SP1s from  large hole to small hole (no pushpin) using bushings held in with a pin.   I believe at one point Norrell and Mike Klos did welded or soldered in bushings.

If an SP1 is converted to small hole you will still need to have one of the front take-down pins with some sort of retaining ability (like a KNS pin).

I have two forged Olympic lowers, one of which I sent to M60Joe for blueprinting and then to US Anodizing and its a great receiver.   I need to send the other one in to US Anodizing at some point as they will do both the blueprinting work and anodizing now.

The older of the two I bought in 2001-ish timeframe and it has an enormous number of rounds through it and it still 100% other than cosmetic wear on the outside.

As much as folks will bash Oly,  their forged receivers if the original conversion was done well and if the receiver was blueprinted to spec and then reanodized are solid receivers in my experience and you should be able to find an Oly in your pricerange and then send it off to be blueprinted and reanodized.

My mistake. I’ve been out of the game for years, and haven’t owned a converted SP1. That said...unless this is some sort of investment or you live somewhere that you can’t operate a business from your home, the SOT and post sample route is much more satisfying. $39 full auto AR lowers are well worth the squeeze, and NFA transfers cover the cost of licensing.

Tried to send you a PM but your box is full. There's one on GB right now for $17k with zero bidders so far. It's on a F4 though...

No worries, I have a buddy in town that has an SP1 that has bushing installed but still has to run some sort of front take down pin with internal detent capability.

He seems very happy with his lower and has owned it for quite some time and you do get the Colt pony on the side and theoretically a better Colt forging vs a Oly or Sendra.

I just wanted to make sure the OP didn't buy an SP1 under the impression that it could be brought to standard front push pin spec as I have never seen or heard of somebody trying to weld on a fence to an SP1.  (or if you would even want somebody to try given how the receiver could probably be warped/weakened in the process)

I would rate receivers as follows

Top Tier:
- Top of the line would be an M16A2  <-- Money is no object option
- Next M16/M16A1 <-- Maybe on a slight budget constraint but still a rock solid solution
- Colt 613/614 <--- Looking to save a couple grand by not having the "M16" rollmark but all the quality of a Colt M16

*The other top tier wildcard are the Group industries stainless receivers.  Some folks will say they are not as good as a Colt M16 and other will claim they are the best registered receiver out there being made of stainless vs. aluminum.

Middle Tier:  (in no particular order)

- Converted SP1 <- Looking to save 3 to 6K over a Colt M16A1/614/613 and can look past the large hole from takedown pin arrangement
- Converted Forged Oly (PAWs, SAW, Palmetto, etc.) <- Looking to save 3 to 6K over a Colt M16A1/614/613 but don't want to deal with the large hole takedown pin and may need to modify uppers if not blueprinted.
- Converted Forged Sendra <- Looking to save money and are apprehensive about Oly's reputation, potential upper fitment issues,  and/or are willing to overlook the purple anodizing that Sendra are infamous for.

Lower Tier:  (I would personally stay away from all of these)

Essential Arms Cast Lowers <- Probably the Top of the lower tier.
Rewelds <- yikes
Oly "barstock" milled lowers <-- yikes and fugly
Married DIAS receivers <- Folks looking for a cheap RDIAS and hope nobody notices the serial starts with "SP1".

I am sure there are some I am missing off the top of my head that others can fill in on.

In terms of the post sample route, I am always interested to hear current home based 07/02 personal experience with ITAR compliance.  Do you pay each year and if not has the BATFE or DOS ever hasseled you for payment?  There seems to always be a lot of conflicting information out there and has been one of the reasons I have stayed away from an 07/02 license.

We never paid. We don’t export or import and regardless of what the transferable shills will tell you, if you’re not doing any significant manufacturing then ITAR is a non-issue. Don’t help out there anymore but I’m going to do the same on my own shortly.

Whether you import or export does not matter. State Definition of MFG is much different than BATFE.

§122.1   Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register. (See part 129 of this subchapter for requirements for registration of persons who engage in brokering activities.)

(b) Exemptions. The registration requirements of paragraph (a) of this section do not apply to:

(1) Officers and employees of the U.S. Government acting in an official capacity;

(2) Persons whose pertinent business activity is confined to the production of unclassified technical data only;

(3) Persons all of whose manufacturing and export activities are licensed under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended; or

(4) Persons who engage in the fabrication of articles solely for experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development.

Note to paragraph (b): Persons who qualify for the exemptions in paragraphs (b)(2) or (b)(4) of this section remain subject to the requirements for licenses or other approvals for exports of defense articles and defense services and may not receive an export license or approval unless registered under §122.2.

(c) Purpose. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges. It is generally a precondition to the issuance of any license or other approval under this subchapter, unless an exception is granted by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.

[78 FR 52686, Aug. 26, 2013]

The only company out there whom I believe may do work like that would be Buhler Ballistics, but I’d contact them prior to purchasing an SP1 to verify they do indeed do that work.

Thank you all for the info and sorry for the full inbox....  I let my paid membership here expire and havent decided to renew or not. (lots of old messages from when i was a paid member)

I'd really really prefer on a Form3 or if on a F4 to be in Utah however i may shoot the folks a message about the one listed at 17250 and the one on GB.

Oh I know what the reg says. But I have no plans on paying once licensed unless the state dept comes and asks me to at some point.

I skimmed franks (Midwest tactical) latest mailer and found the following in your price range. Call 417-850-1649
Paws M16 Transferable  $17,495
https://www.gunspot.com/listings/detail/2324/m16-transferable-machine-gun/
*Bushmaster M16  $17,995
*Colt SP1 M16  $17,995

Websites to watch for good deals on machine guns:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com
http://www.atfmachinegun.com
https://www.rockislandauction.com/
http://www.autoweapons.com
http://www.impactguns.com
http://www.subguns.com
http://www.capitolarmory.com/class-3-nfa/machine-guns.html
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com
http://www.davidspiwak.com
http://dealernfa.com
http://www.gunbroker.com
http://www.nfasales.com
https://www.machineguncentral.com
https://www.machineguncentral.com/default.aspx
http://mtmmfg.com
http://www.classiiidealers.com/
http://www.westernfirearms.com/
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/class-iii-full-auto/
http://www.urban-armory.com/
http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_7/118_NFA_Firearms_andamp__Parts.html

FWIW I checked over a dozen websites twice a day for over a month before I found the RR I was looking for. I wanted a Non-colt RR with fence, and safe/semi/auto markings. Ended up picking up a Oly Arms and had the upper shelf and rear radius milled down and then anodized by USAnodizing. Looks like a brand new lower now.

Agreed, I would pay the extra $1-2 and get the MG you want, in good condition. The friction cost of buying and selling MGs is very high so its not something you want to do if you don't have to, also the wait time is nearly a year so its not like you can just go to a gunshop, sell your current rifle, buy a new one and go home with it that day.

I passed on multiple Olys and an SP1 for the mythical in spec Sendra, finally found one and it was just as out of spec as the worse Oly I came across...

Non-colts are hit or miss, some have a perfect fit, others are terrible. You also don't know who maybe have had work done on them in the past to get them into spec or if they just sat in the back of a safe since the 80s.

With that said there are gunsmiths that will work on them while you wait for your Form 4.

Buy my SP1 for 18.5 and you’ll be happy. Front pin isn’t really an issue since adaptors are easy. Comes with big pin upper too

I have what you seek- sent you a pm and email

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/857044383

M16A2 (not mine, and not affiliated, but do want)
Unfired low starting bid for 24,999

How many A2's had the tear drop forward asssist

If someone gets that for $24.9 that's a steal. I paid almost that much for my A1 carbine.

Beautiful gun, I would hate to shoot it

Not just a teardrop FA, it's an M16 upper, not even an A1.

Still, very nice gun.  I'd be very surprised if that goes for under $30.

If it's just a shooter, why does it matter if the gun can be had at a good price?

I use a non-captured pushpin on all my SP1 uppers.

Attached File

1. M60joe is out of business but he recommended Gary's Bunker to do the conversion.. However he charges $500 for the work. Basically it is a epoxy bushing then worked from there to clean up the look.  He recommends not to do it though.. He sent me a photo of the work part of the way done. If you do the work, you can buy KNS .250 push pins.

2. Ruben/Frank prices are like 85% of the time above market price but gives you a rough idea how much it could cost. Once in a while he has a good deal but typically disappears every time I inquire..

3. SP1 is pretty nice but definitely saved $$$ getting it over the M16.  You can find them for $16k if your lucky. A reputable dealer sold one for that last month. I think Ruben has one for 18k.

4. I have ideas for the large pin.. Been working on an idea using KNS .250 push pin, one bushing adapter, and a captive cap with the shape of the bushing adapter. Planning to CAD it out but need a place to produce them for a reasonable price. This idea makes it a fast takedown without the need for a Screwdriver!

Bump.If anyone knows of a good deal, I'm in the market.  I don't want an SP1, but I'm interested in budget Colts, Oly's and Sendras.  Prettymuch anything with proper pins.

I'm in the exact same boat.  I've been having trouble finding even a decent deal.

I've seen a few that I thought about making offers on.  But I need to raise the cash first, so I'll probably hold off a few weeks before making offers.

I guess I'm not looking in all the right places.

I haven't seen many Oly/Sendra/PAWS receivers.  But there are several 614's under $25k.

I've got a Bushy/Sendra on a Form 5 from my fathers estate I'm going to sell.

Runs perfect with every upper I've put on it.  Looks great, low mileage type of gun since I think it was purchased in '87

PM or email me for details

Asking $18k

@sm0413 - I just cut a deal with another member on an Oly/SAW conversion. Burnsome-'s is all yours if you want it.

PM Sent

Congrats on the purchase!

You will like a real machine gun more than a bump stocks

Half a machinegun:
Attached File

Are you buying a machine gun or traffic drugs

Had to sell off some of my collection to fund the M16

@jbntex

I know the comment I am replying to was made a while back but I just saw this thread...

According to my paperwork, I have a 613 but my lower says M16.

Mind posting pics?  My first offer was on a 614, but they didn't take it.  I ended up with a Oly/SAW that has been redone by US Anodizing.  It fits my budget better with less stretching required.

Below is a pic of the lower of my 613 showing the roll mark.

Attached File

Looks great!  I really like the Colts!

It has been a good gun, never had any problems with it.

I bought it back in the 90's when things were a lot less expensive.

Before buying the M16 I had a Colt AR-15 SP1 and when I bought the M16 I recall thinking that I just paid 3x for the M16 that I paid for the SP1 and it is almost exactly the same thing.... so I must be the dumbest person on the planet.

Also, back then everyone wanted a RR and not a DIAS so RRs cost a lot more than a DIAS.  Of course there were no new styles of AR-15 put them in.  My, how times change.

On a side note, I have an extra upper... as I recall, it is a Colt DC6700 HBAR upper with a Gemtech Trek suppressor mounted on it and a Gemtech suppressed bolt carrier.  Works great and is surprisingly quiet compared to other 5.56mm guns using standard ammo.

My only complaint is that with the full stock and suppressor, the gun is 44" overall and is very heavy.

Its Colt.....so if history is any guide just about any combination of receiver markings, forging type, serial# range, and model number on the paperwork seems to be possible. (the exception being the endlessly debated factory full auto "SP1" unicorn)

That said, in most cases a  Colt model 613 would traditionally be a rollmarked  "AR-15" and "MOD. 613" and in the 5M serial number range like the ones below.

Attached File


On you picture with the sling in the way we can't see the serial or mod rollmark,  out of curiosity does yours say "613" on the receiver and what serial number range does it fall into?

All three of the 613's in your picture have the model above the caliber and then the third line is the serial number.  Interesting that 8afuzzball's has the caliber on the first line.

Mind explaining the differences between the 613's and 614's?  You seem to have quite a bit of knowledge about Colts.

To the best of my knowledge the lower receivers on on the 613 and 614 are basically identical.  (other than the roll mark and SN# range)

Both were export versions and the difference between the two models was the configuration of the upper receiver group.   The main difference was 614 generally came from the factory with a non-forward assist upper ("slickside") and the 613 had a older style teardrop forward assist button.   I believe some of the 614s also had the older style 3 prong flash hider where the 613s generally came with the birdcage hider.

Somebody more knowledgeable on these guns may be able to update and correct my understanding of the attribute difference between these two.

I can get the gun and take more pics and gather info.  But before I do, could you let me know what other info you want as it is sort of hard to get to and I'd like to do it just once.


As I recall, there the sling was put there intentionally to mask the serial number and there was nothing else written there.

I'm pretty sure the serial number is in the 9 million range, there is a tear drop forward assist, it has triangular hand guards and a birdcage flash suppressor, not 3 prong.

Guns marked “M16” don’t have the model marking down by the serial number but may be papered as 613 or 614. A friend had one with the original f2 showing the model as 614, but it was marked M16 only. I have one too, but I’ve not done a FOIA request to see how it is listed on the f2.

I have also seen 613s with a partial fence lower and with full fence lower. As always with Colt, it’s a mixed bag.

Is there any difference in metallurgy between the 614 and later M16's ?

I'm pretty sure the full fence 614's were coming from the same forgea the M16A1's were rolling out of.