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Posted: 6/19/2022 11:52:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Sorry to hear about the injury OP. Good on you for keeping on shooting.
I have no experience with reduced-recoil .223, but this gentleman did a pretty involved write up, including load data. Might be worth a read. http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28996 Best of luck Eta link made hot |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 11:52:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Fastest powder I'd probably use that'd still cycle would be 4198. I've played with 2400 loads, but they just dont have the pressure at the port to cycle reliably. I've used AA2015 and AA2200 and 50gr VMax with good results, and I considered it lighter recoil. If I remember right, it was 22.8gr in FC cases, but don't hold me to that.
Recoil is subjective and you'll have to figure out whether it hurts more with faster/lighter impulses or slower/heavier ones. How about a 22 conversion kit? |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 11:52:38 AM EDT
[#3]
That’s pretty trash buddy. Hope you heal up.
Seriously, why not just a 22lr? Even a 22mag? Besides the cost of ammo… I don’t know about cycling incredibly light loads, but you could probably get pretty stupid if you want to start opening up gas ports, using an ultralight buffer, and why not add a silencer (which will also add gun weight to reduce felt recoil, if you can still hold it up). I’d start with the lightest bullets you can get. They tend to produce less felt recoil in full power loads. I do believe that there is a small-bore version of “the load” (using a decent charge of a specific pistol powder in full bore cartridges). Which is a whole can of worms I don’t really want to get myself into. The concept is very sketchy to me and I suppose I’m just not that adventurous. You probably don’t want to go messing with that sort of thing when you already have enough medical problems… *question for the hive* what happens when you use start charges, with pistol primers, and work down? This might avoid the primer backing out as normal with weak loads, and at low pressures the thinner cups shouldn’t be an issue with piercing or etching the bolt face. |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 11:57:02 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s pretty trash buddy. Hope you heal up. Seriously, why not just a 22lr? Even a 22mag? Besides the cost of ammo… I don’t know about cycling incredibly light loads, but you could probably get pretty stupid if you want to start opening up gas ports, using an ultralight buffer, and why not add a silencer (which will also add gun weight to reduce felt recoil, if you can still hold it up). I’d start with the lightest bullets you can get. They tend to produce less felt recoil in full power loads. I do believe that there is a small-bore version of “the load” (using a decent charge of a specific pistol powder in full bore cartridges). Which is a whole can of worms I don’t really want to get myself into. The concept is very sketchy to me and I suppose I’m just not that adventurous. You probably don’t want to go messing with that sort of thing when you already have enough medical problems… *question for the hive* what happens when you use start charges, with pistol primers, and work down? This might avoid the primer backing out as normal with weak loads, and at low pressures the thinner cups shouldn’t be an issue with piercing or etching the bolt face. I'd still be concerned with rifle strikes on a pistol primer. Starting rifle loads are also overpressure for pistol primers. Magnum pistol primers might be OK, but I've never tried them at rifle pressures. Lastly, the floating firing pin on an AR will put more of a dent on your primers on cycling. May not be a problem, but I'd aim to avoid it. |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 12:07:37 PM EDT
[#5]
I have a really light load made up for my gamer rifle, but the rifle is tuned to shoot it reliably.
It feels like a .22lr. Rifle is tuned with a 10% reduced power wolff spring. Taccom plastic buffer system and adj gas block. AIM Skeletonized BCG. 16" mid length with rifle length buffer system. 22.6gr H335 55gr projo. I use the elusive Wolf 55gr bullets, but have also used the Hornady 55gr. 2.245" oal Whatever brass. I usually use the junkiest brass I have for it, since it gets lost at matches. Win SRP It does seem to cycle in just about everything I fire it through though....but feels a little sluggish when cycling in most setups. It does cycle through my 16" mid length with H1 buffer, but is very sluggish. |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 12:26:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Velocity has the biggest impact on felt recoil, or rather a 125gr 308 bullet moving at 2200fps recoils more than a 220gr 308 bullet moving at 1050fps.
That said... I'd look at the lightest bullet you can reasonably stabilize with acceptable accuracy (55gr?), and tone down the velocity some as well. As to powder you can reduce, H4895 (NOT the IMR of same number, Hodgdon only) has a rule/recommendation for reduced loads where starting with the full load you can reduce by up to 60%. They list a max load for a 55gr at 26.0gr |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 12:48:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Another option is a 9mm upper you can really soften up the recoil with reloads
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Posted: 6/19/2022 1:23:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Add weight to the rifle. 12-16lb service rifles significantly reduce recoil.
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Posted: 6/19/2022 1:24:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another option is a 9mm upper you can really soften up the recoil with reloads I don’t know about that. Maybe in an AR it hits different, but I always thought the recoil on a blowback 9 was pretty harsh. Not necessarily much more than a 5.56, but probably due to the heavy bolt slamming around. |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 2:42:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Shooters world tactical rifle powder
"With only 18 grains of propellant in a .223 Remington or 5.56mm case, a shooter can push a 55 grain bullet at 2450 fps from a 20 inch barrel. Using an AR-15 in good condition, this load has been shown to reliably function, but exhibit reduced recoil, velocity and noise." |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 3:06:36 PM EDT
[#11]
You can get some super-light varmint bullets and use a minimal powder charge behind them. They are available, very accurate, inexpensive and offer very low recoil.
Barnes sells Varmint Grenades as low as 30 gr which I use for my wife's rifle, as she is a bit recoil sensitive (infrequent shooter). I use a light charge of TAC or whatever is on hand. They cycle the rifle just fine. The real question is this - if you're injured and not yet healed, should you be shooting centerfire? Would you be better off shooting rimfire (using a CMMG rimfire adapter) or not shooting until you are healed? |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 3:30:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Once you get down to where you are at load wise it gets dicey going much lower. You might find a load and recoil assembly that's marginally better but no huge leaps when you are already on the low end. The AR system was built around working with 223/5.56.
I think the 22lr advice is worth considering. I'd also suggest a Tripod or other way of securing the gun that might be more comfortable than your Lead Sled. I always thought if I had my own range and bench I might have a big ole bench vise I could clamp stuff down in. Good luck OP. If you aren't stuck on an AR a bolt gun or single shot can be run with any load. I don't know if manipulation of the action would be better or worse than recoil. |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 3:38:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Add weight to the rifle. 12-16lb service rifles significantly reduce recoil. I shot service rifle after a neck fusion. My 14 pound rifle didn't recoil much but it does put a strain on your shoulders and neck till your better. Do all your PT to get strength in shoulders and arms. Also consider a brake, noisy but does help some I would think. |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 3:52:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shot service rifle after a neck fusion. My 14 pound rifle didn't recoil much but it does put a strain on your shoulders and neck till your better. Do all your PT to get strength in shoulders and arms. Also consider a brake, noisy but does help some I would think. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Add weight to the rifle. 12-16lb service rifles significantly reduce recoil. I shot service rifle after a neck fusion. My 14 pound rifle didn't recoil much but it does put a strain on your shoulders and neck till your better. Do all your PT to get strength in shoulders and arms. Also consider a brake, noisy but does help some I would think. 22LR conversion kit. |
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Posted: 6/19/2022 5:42:25 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shot service rifle after a neck fusion. My 14 pound rifle didn't recoil much but it does put a strain on your shoulders and neck till your better. Do all your PT to get strength in shoulders and arms. Also consider a brake, noisy but does help some I would think. He's using Brake's |
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Posted: 6/20/2022 12:32:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryGood info. Thanks for the link but I can’t find any Unique or Blue Dot at the moment. Quoted: How about a 22 conversion kit? I picked up a 22LR conversion kit a few years back but that’s found a home in my obnoxious AR pistol that I take to the indoor range. I could give that a go and see what the accuracy is out of the longer barrels. Quoted: Rifle is tuned with a 10% reduced power wolff spring. Taccom plastic buffer system and adj gas block. AIM Skeletonized BCG. 16" mid length with rifle length buffer system. 22.6gr H335 55gr projo. I use the elusive Wolf 55gr bullets, but have also used the Hornady 55gr. 2.245" oal Whatever brass. I usually use the junkiest brass I have for it, since it gets lost at matches. Win SRP Close to the same set-up I have on 16”. I haven’t tried a rifle length buffer system yet (had most of the lower parts before surgery). I was able to add a Limbsaver to my SL stock so I’ve kept that. |
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Posted: 6/20/2022 12:35:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Velocity has the biggest impact on felt recoil, or rather a 125gr 308 bullet moving at 2200fps recoils more than a 220gr 308 bullet moving at 1050fps. As to powder you can reduce, H4895 (NOT the IMR of same number, Hodgdon only) has a rule/recommendation for reduced loads where starting with the full load you can reduce by up to 60%. Quote HistoryQuoted: Velocity has the biggest impact on felt recoil, or rather a 125gr 308 bullet moving at 2200fps recoils more than a 220gr 308 bullet moving at 1050fps. As to powder you can reduce, H4895 (NOT the IMR of same number, Hodgdon only) has a rule/recommendation for reduced loads where starting with the full load you can reduce by up to 60%. I’ve been using Power Factor to determine recoil (Bullet weight x Velocity divided by 1000). In your example 125 gr = 275 vs. 220 gr = 231 but I’ve read that if the PF is the same (and using the same powder) the heavier bullet will give less recoil due to the lighter charge used. I would love to be able to get some H4895 but all I've seen is IMR 4895 at the local "Outdoor Man" store so far. Quoted: Shooters world tactical rifle powder "With only 18 grains of propellant in a .223 Remington or 5.56mm case, a shooter can push a 55 grain bullet at 2450 fps from a 20 inch barrel. Using an AR-15 in good condition, this load has been shown to reliably function, but exhibit reduced recoil, velocity and noise." Thanks I’ll have to take a look at this. SW data has starting load for 55 gr @ 17.5 grains 2509 vel. (PF = 138). Lowest I’ve seen so far. If accuracy is decent this could be a winner. |
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Posted: 6/20/2022 12:44:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can get some super-light varmint bullets and use a minimal powder charge behind them. They are available, very accurate, inexpensive and offer very low recoil. Barnes sells Varmint Grenades as low as 30 gr which I use for my wife's rifle, as she is a bit recoil sensitive (infrequent shooter). I use a light charge of TAC or whatever is on hand. They cycle the rifle just fine. The real question is this - if you're injured and not yet healed, should you be shooting centerfire? Would you be better off shooting rimfire (using a CMMG rimfire adapter) or not shooting until you are healed? Quote HistoryQuoted: You can get some super-light varmint bullets and use a minimal powder charge behind them. They are available, very accurate, inexpensive and offer very low recoil. Barnes sells Varmint Grenades as low as 30 gr which I use for my wife's rifle, as she is a bit recoil sensitive (infrequent shooter). I use a light charge of TAC or whatever is on hand. They cycle the rifle just fine. The real question is this - if you're injured and not yet healed, should you be shooting centerfire? Would you be better off shooting rimfire (using a CMMG rimfire adapter) or not shooting until you are healed? I’ve only gone down to 55gr with the 1-8 twists. I was thinking lowest I could go was 40 gr. What twist are you shooting 30 gr in your wife’s rifle? I was given no restrictions by my surgeon after 6 months. It’s really more about what I can handle as far as strength, pain and soreness after. They cut thru most of the muscles for the neck/shoulders posterior and could be up to 2 years before I get back to full strength, if at all. Quoted: I think the 22lr advice is worth considering. I'd also suggest a Tripod or other way of securing the gun that might be more comfortable than your Lead Sled. I always thought if I had my own range and bench I might have a big ole bench vise I could clamp stuff down in. Good luck OP. If you aren't stuck on an AR a bolt gun or single shot can be run with any load. I don't know if manipulation of the action would be better or worse than recoil. This is where I may end up. Love shooting and building ARs. Would hate to have to give them up. |
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Posted: 6/20/2022 12:47:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shot service rifle after a neck fusion. My 14 pound rifle didn't recoil much but it does put a strain on your shoulders and neck till your better. Do all your PT to get strength in shoulders and arms. Also consider a brake, noisy but does help some I would think. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Add weight to the rifle. 12-16lb service rifles significantly reduce recoil. I shot service rifle after a neck fusion. My 14 pound rifle didn't recoil much but it does put a strain on your shoulders and neck till your better. Do all your PT to get strength in shoulders and arms. Also consider a brake, noisy but does help some I would think. Thanks I finished PT a couple months ago. Still too weak to shoot offhand at that weight. I did pick up a couple Hypertaps (on my 16” & 20”) and a VG6 (on my 18”) brakes. The HTs will definitely get you dirty looks at the range. |
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Posted: 6/20/2022 2:27:36 PM EDT
[#20]
I loaded some low velocity 223 55 fmj because I wanted to see if I could shoot steel targets at less than 50 yards with out chewing up the steel. Velocity is what destroys steel. As far as felt recoil, it was about the same as regular ammo. The recoil impulse is still mostly just feeling the bcg go back and forth.
I decided to not to shoot the steel at less than 50 yards and it's not worth loading low velocity because I want the ballistics to be about the same for when I shoot long range. If you already have a really good muzzle brake, adjustable gas block and light weight bolt carrier, you're not going to gain much if anything by loading low velocity ammo. This JP recoil eliminator really works. Exhttps://www.jprifles.com/1.4.3_tre.php?menu_select=jpre |
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Posted: 6/20/2022 2:48:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve been using Power Factor to determine recoil (Bullet weight x Velocity divided by 1000). In your example 125 gr = 275 vs. 220 gr = 231 but I’ve read that if the PF is the same (and using the same powder) the heavier bullet will give less recoil due to the lighter charge used. I would love to be able to get some H4895 but all I've seen is IMR 4895 at the local "Outdoor Man" store so far. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Velocity has the biggest impact on felt recoil, or rather a 125gr 308 bullet moving at 2200fps recoils more than a 220gr 308 bullet moving at 1050fps. As to powder you can reduce, H4895 (NOT the IMR of same number, Hodgdon only) has a rule/recommendation for reduced loads where starting with the full load you can reduce by up to 60%. I’ve been using Power Factor to determine recoil (Bullet weight x Velocity divided by 1000). In your example 125 gr = 275 vs. 220 gr = 231 but I’ve read that if the PF is the same (and using the same powder) the heavier bullet will give less recoil due to the lighter charge used. I would love to be able to get some H4895 but all I've seen is IMR 4895 at the local "Outdoor Man" store so far. Heh, I've been using high school physics (e=mc2) but really struck home when I shot my 300bo bolt gun with different loads |
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Posted: 6/20/2022 3:18:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Why not just shoot rimfire until you heal?
A suppressor will reduce recoil. 
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Posted: 6/20/2022 4:35:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not just shoot rimfire until you heal? A suppressor will reduce recoil. Not more than a good brake but the quieter part is nice |
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Posted: 6/21/2022 5:44:49 AM EDT
[#24]
H or IMR 4198 has less margin than I prefer from my H3 buffered carbine (failure to lock open with a 10yo shooting from bench), so I haven't bothered trying in a rifle.
H322, IMR3031, and Benchmark seem to be the next steps up in gas volume. 24gr of Varget and H4895 can group well with most bullets. Not sure if port pressure can get too weak with sub-50gr bullets. |
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Posted: 6/21/2022 11:09:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve only gone down to 55gr with the 1-8 twists. I was thinking lowest I could go was 40 gr. What twist are you shooting 30 gr in your wife’s rifle? She has a 1/8" twist barrel. Even the light loads yield high velocity and decent accuracy at 100 yards. Although I have never tested them beyond 100 yards, I'm sure they'd be reasonable beyond that. |
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Posted: 6/21/2022 12:18:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: H or IMR 4198 has less margin than I prefer from my H3 buffered carbine (failure to lock open with a 10yo shooting from bench), so I haven't bothered trying in a rifle. H322, IMR3031, and Benchmark seem to be the next steps up in gas volume. 24gr of Varget and H4895 can group well with most bullets. Not sure if port pressure can get too weak with sub-50gr bullets. I've play with this for some years. i've used IMR-4198 and H4198 in 7.62x39 and in 223. H4198 is slightly slower than IMR-4198, but IMR-4198 produces more gas pressure at the gas port. H4198 seems perfect for 7.62x39 and IMR-4198 isn't bad, but really works the gas system more. In 223 I've never gotten H4198 to cycle in an AR, but one guy at the range uses it and swears it cycles his AR. Some 223 data IMR-4198 is really wimpy. I have had success with IMR-4198 in 223 AR's, but the loads must be selective high end loads. Several years ago there was a magazine article with loads for AR's and how their sourced the data for each load. One load they had that was interesting was a 62 grain FMJ Hornady bullet with 21.0 grains of IMR-4198. They explained they based this load on the Sierra data that shows 21.1 grains of IMR-4198 with the Sierra 60 grain bullet. I tried it and it functioned perfectly. Recoil was down some and velocity was not high end, but it made enough gas pressure for reliable cycling of the AR. I don't know if it works with 55 grain bullets, but Sierra has AR15 data with IMR-4198 that is higher than most. I would give IMR-4198 the advantantage over H4198. |
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Posted: 6/22/2022 1:50:32 PM EDT
[#27]
I used a "Sissy Bag" to develop loads for my 338 Win Mag.
I cut a cloth shot bag down to seven inches. Filled it with fine sand until the bag was about 1" thick. Fold over the top of the cloth to seal the bag and keep the sand inside. Sew or staple the bag. Place the bag between the stock and your shoulder. The inertia of the sand bag reduces the amount of recoil that transfers to your shoulder. With the bag, you may be able to use 55gr bullets with any powder at starting loads. A company called Past makes a recoil shield that straps on to your shoulder. That may be more handy than placing the bag for each shot. |
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Posted: 6/22/2022 9:21:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: H or IMR 4198 has less margin than I prefer from my H3 buffered carbine (failure to lock open with a 10yo shooting from bench), so I haven't bothered trying in a rifle. H322, IMR3031, and Benchmark seem to be the next steps up in gas volume. 24gr of Varget and H4895 can group well with most bullets. Not sure if port pressure can get too weak with sub-50gr bullets. I might give IMR 4198 a try. It's all I can get locally out of the powders you listed. |
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Posted: 6/22/2022 9:26:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: She has a 1/8" twist barrel. Even the light loads yield high velocity and decent accuracy at 100 yards. Although I have never tested them beyond 100 yards, I'm sure they'd be reasonable beyond that. Good to know. I was under the impression that anything below 55 gr with an 8 twist ran the risk of spinning too fast. |
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Posted: 6/22/2022 9:35:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used a "Sissy Bag" to develop loads for my 338 Win Mag. I cut a cloth shot bag down to seven inches. Filled it with fine sand until the bag was about 1" thick. Fold over the top of the cloth to seal the bag and keep the sand inside. Sew or staple the bag. Place the bag between the stock and your shoulder. The inertia of the sand bag reduces the amount of recoil that transfers to your shoulder. With the bag, you may be able to use 55gr bullets with any powder at starting loads. A company called Past makes a recoil shield that straps on to your shoulder. That may be more handy than placing the bag for each shot. I'm going to pick up one of these thanks. |
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Posted: 6/22/2022 9:45:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used a "Sissy Bag" to develop loads for my 338 Win Mag. I cut a cloth shot bag down to seven inches. Filled it with fine sand until the bag was about 1" thick. Fold over the top of the cloth to seal the bag and keep the sand inside. Sew or staple the bag. Place the bag between the stock and your shoulder. The inertia of the sand bag reduces the amount of recoil that transfers to your shoulder. With the bag, you may be able to use 55gr bullets with any powder at starting loads. A company called Past makes a recoil shield that straps on to your shoulder. That may be more handy than placing the bag for each shot. Dang we had him trying multiple loads and spending hundreds on gun parts to solve his problem then you chime in with your low/no cost idea ? What do they say ? KISS Keep it simple stupid 
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Posted: 6/22/2022 9:51:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: I’m looking for the lowest possible recoil that will still cycle my AR15s. The reason is I had a neck injury last year and needed 6 level posterior fusion. They put 2 rods and 12 screws in my neck to stabilize it. I’m 8 months post op and so far I’ve been only able to bench shoot with a lead sled but I’m not a fan of it. So please no “what recoil?” replies. I built 2 new ARs. 18" and 20". The 18” has a lightweight barrel/BCG/Buffer, reduced power spring (7 Lbs.). The 20” is a bull barrel, full BCG, flatwire spring and H2 buffer (14 lbs). Both have AGBs, are carbine buffer, rifle-length gas and have good 3 port brakes. I also have a 16” middy with LW barrel/BCG/buffer. They all shoot soft but I’m down the rabbit hole now and want to go even further with light/reduced loads if it will reduce recoil more. Reloading questions. 1. First, with .223 light/reduced load I’m assuming I will have to up the AGB gas to cycle the system, which will increase the recoil. So is it even worth doing in the first place? Powders 2 What powder can be reduced? I don’t know powders. I do know Trail Boss and H4895 can be reduced but probably won’t cycle the AR system. I can get my hands on H335, IMR 4895, IMR 4198, CFE BLK, H110 pistol. Any recipes for .223 light/reduced loads with these? Bullets: All 3 guns are 1-8 Twist. 18-20” .223 Wylde and 16” 5.56 NATO. 3. Light or Heavy? I’ve read all things being equal (same Power Factor Vel x Weight) a heavy bullet is less recoil but a heavy bullet on a light gun produce more recoil than a lighter bullet? I’d like to work up loads for each gun. My thinking on the bullets was this: 16” 40 gr Nos BT or V-max 18” 52 gr ELD or SMK 20” 69 gr SMK Primers: CCI 450 magnum small rifle. Brass: Once fired PMC Any other recommendations are appreciated. IMR 4198 might be your best bet. You will have to play with the amount to find the one load that will cycle the action. RL10x, H322 and AA2015 are all fast powders and the max load is around 23 grains. I think the max load with the IMR 4198 is 21 or 22 grains with a 55 grain bullet. You might get the action to cycle but will the round be accurate ? Why waste the powder if what you are shooting is not accurate ? I had good luck with RL10x and AA2015. 23 grains and a 55 grain bullet out of a Mini 14. kwg |
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Posted: 6/22/2022 11:26:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I might give IMR 4198 a try. It's all I can get locally out of the powders you listed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: H or IMR 4198 has less margin than I prefer from my H3 buffered carbine (failure to lock open with a 10yo shooting from bench), so I haven't bothered trying in a rifle. H322, IMR3031, and Benchmark seem to be the next steps up in gas volume. 24gr of Varget and H4895 can group well with most bullets. Not sure if port pressure can get too weak with sub-50gr bullets. I might give IMR 4198 a try. It's all I can get locally out of the powders you listed. Here is the old Sierra load data with IMR-4198 loads for AR15's. PDF download https://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf To compare here is the Sierra 223 bolt action load data. http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf Not recommended for AR15's and oddly, some data is milder and some data is hotter. To get an AR15 to cycle with IMR-4198, you'll likely have to stay near the maximum loads. Lighter weight bullets do reduce recoil, even when are going faster. Some muzzle brakes and compensators are simple and affordable and some are expensive. This one is on clearance and is from the defunked Bushmaster company and I think it was designed by Yankee Hill Machine. https://www.cdnnsports.com/ar15-223-muzzlebrake-izzy-bushmaster-30412.html Works well if you ever want a lighter rifle with a comp. It will require a crush washer. https://www.cdnnsports.com/ar15-crush-washer-steel-292.html That set is a good price. |
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Posted: 6/23/2022 12:57:41 AM EDT
[#34]
5744 or SW Buffalo powders should give you the gas to run a semi. BTW, Those are the same powder so data for one is good for the other. 4895 or varget should also work as long as you don't go below 70% case fill.
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Posted: 6/23/2022 2:39:27 AM EDT
[#35]
The best way to develop this kind of load is to use quick load to find out what the port pressure is going to be with different loads. I would actually suspect that a slower powder that produces more gas (Varget, h4895, etc), would provide better port pressure at reduced loads than a fast powder that produces less gas would, but without quickload in front of me to run numbers, I couldn't say for sure.
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Posted: 6/23/2022 4:48:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The best way to develop this kind of load is to use quick load to find out what the port pressure is going to be with different loads. I would actually suspect that a slower powder that produces more gas (Varget, h4895, etc), would provide better port pressure at reduced loads than a fast powder that produces less gas would, but without quickload in front of me to run numbers, I couldn't say for sure. |
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Posted: 6/23/2022 11:42:48 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good to know. I was under the impression that anything below 55 gr with an 8 twist ran the risk of spinning too fast. If you want a reduced load, try a light bullet. It worked for me, surprisingly well, in fact. They have significantly lower real and perceived recoil and are accurate. They are not a long range bullet but at 200 yards and less or in low wind, they're fine. |
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Posted: 6/23/2022 5:29:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Back up to the fundamentals -
The lowest recoil is produced by the heaviest tolerable gun shooting the lowest weight bullet at the slowest speed with the least volume of gunpowder. An AR needs a minimum volume of gas for operation. That means that tiny charges of fast gunpowders won't work. But sometimes just a bit more will function the rifle. You can use a simple parameter for comparison of different loads without worrying about consistent engineering units from - Recoil Parameter = {[bullet weight]x[muzzle velocity] + [charge weight]x[4000] } / [rifle weight] Ignoring the powder charge is okay. We are guessing at an approximate speed of the gas exiting the muzzle. I have fired 40, 45, and 50 grain varmint bullets at full speed without jacket failures in 7 twist barrels. But I haven't fired every varmint bullet. Don't worry about that until it's a problem. I think you should buy 52 grain Sierra MK's, either boat tail or flat base bullets. Then pick a powder that uses a moderate to large charge weight, put the gun in the rest, and start with a published start charge incrementing up until the gun functions, expecting it to function with the start charge. I'd be careful about shooting from position with any load to avoid pulling or twisting those repairs in your body. A benchrest is a really good idea for now. |
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Posted: 6/24/2022 11:46:28 AM EDT
[#39]
The only modern bullets that might blow up in flight with fast twist barrels is Hornady's SX line. Any 40 to 53 grain varmint/match bullet should give the lightest recoil. H322, AA-2015, LT-30 and even H4198 should get decent velocities with relatively light charge weights.
Using a rifle stock on a mid-gassed upper seems to reduce recoil IME. 20" rifle gassed uppers are even easier on recoil. Carbine gassed uppers with collapsible stocks probably kick the most. I have a dedicated .22 LR upper that has been very reliable and accurate. Needless to say, virtually no recoil. You could practice with something like that, reserving the 5.56mm for actual self-defense use. |
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Posted: 6/24/2022 10:28:05 PM EDT
[#40]
I've shot 36gr Barnes Varmint Grenade and 40gr V-max out of my RRA 1/8 twist with fair results using Accurate 2200. Can't really say much about the recoil as I was chasing max velocity.
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Posted: 7/17/2022 12:20:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Finally was able to find what I was looking for at one place. I'm going to try the LW bullets. 30 and 36 VGs, 40 Speer SP and 52 SMKs. For powders I picked up LT-30, 2200, 2015 to try out. LT-30 is supposed to have the same burn rate as 4198 but is a smaller "stick" and should meter better. No data for the 30 grs VGs with LT-30 only 2015 and 2200. I would've liked to try 5744. There's some published reduced load data for .223 from Speer and reports that it'll cycle a mid length using WP load data. But I couldn't locate any and I'm trying to stay away from the longer extruded powders anyway. I have some 69 gr SMKs and 77 gr Nos Match I can compare the lighter bullets/faster powder combo with to see if there's any noticeable reduced recoil. I also picked up some Blue Dot if I'm feeling brave. I know it won't cycle anything but I have a side charger I can use it for. Not sure when I'll have a chance to work up some loads and get to the range but I'll post back when I do. |
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Posted: 8/6/2022 1:29:42 AM EDT
[#42]
If you want really light loads to cycle, shorter gas systems are your friend.
I've gone down to subsonic loads with powders as fast as Red Dot that operated the action with the barrel being the only nonstandard part. |
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Posted: 8/7/2022 10:17:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Hodgdon has subsonic load data. google it.
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Posted: 8/7/2022 12:50:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hodgdon has subsonic load data. google it. Any of them cycle an AR? |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 8:34:37 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any of them cycle an AR? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hodgdon has subsonic load data. google it. Any of them cycle an AR? |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 9:52:52 PM EDT
[#46]
I was able to get to the range Fri afternoon but didn't get a chance to test much. I brought a guest and first time AR shooter. Spent much of the time getting them familiar with it and their gun tuned and scope zeroed.
I only shot about 25 test loads of 30 and 36 gr VGs. All min. starting loads with 2200 and 2015. Didn't go past mid powder range (.223). I couldn't get any to lock back the bolt on my 20" rifle length. The 30 gr 2015 was the most accurate at low end starting load and would cycle but not lock back. I tried opening my AGB but it was stuck 1/4 closed. I changed to a LW buffer but started getting light strikes. By then I called it a day. I still have plenty of room to go higher with powder and was able to get my AGB clean and fully open, so I'll give it another try this week. I shot a few 68 gr factory match ammo and there is a difference in felt recoil so I'm hoping to get these to work. I have the 18" rifle length and 16" mid with Lightweight BCG, buffer and reduced power spring to try also. Quoted: Any of them cycle an AR? Everything I've read says Hodgdon .223 data with 748, Trail Boss, Clays, Titegroup subs (or any .223 subs) won't cycle an AR. Fastest powder I've come across is 5744 16.8 gr. with 55 gr cycling a mid length @ 2600 fps. I haven't really researched pistol & carbine length though. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 10:50:17 PM EDT
[#47]
I bet if you opened up the gas port in the barrel it will cycle but it would make the barrel useless with normal loads without an adjustable gas block.
If recoil is the issue would adding weight to the rifle help reducing the felt recoil ? When we used to shoot prairie dogs with a 24" bull barrel rifle it wouldn't hardly recoil even with hotter 60 Vmax loads . Just a thought |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 10:58:03 PM EDT
[#48]
Pick the lightest bullet you can find (40 grain?), then use the lowest-velocity load for it that you can find. Work up until it cycles. If you need lower recoil than that, you might have to alter the gas system.
Alternatively, if you want even lower recoil and are willing to change out parts and components... get yourself a barrel in 204 Ruger or .20 practical. Shoots flatter than a .223, and has a lot less recoil. 39 grain bullets are the "heavy" ones in .204 caliber. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 11:20:46 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bet if you opened up the gas port in the barrel it will cycle but it would make the barrel useless with normal loads without an adjustable gas block. If recoil is the issue would adding weight to the rifle help reducing the felt recoil ? When we used to shoot prairie dogs with a 24" bull barrel rifle it wouldn't hardly recoil even with hotter 60 Vmax loads . Just a thought I have AGBs on all my ARs so opening the ports is an option. |
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Posted: 8/8/2022 11:26:14 PM EDT
[#50]
How does a LW buffer cause light strikes?
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