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Link Posted: 2/10/2019 8:31:29 AM EST
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Originally Posted By jpmuscle:
The famed L3 are cucks posting is flashing back to me in all its glory I'm afraid lol
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Ha, I remember that guy.
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 9:36:36 AM EST
It’s clear the specs are really good but doesn’t it still amplify less than a Gen 3 Harris or L3?

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Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
Half correct. Photonis do, actually, make Gen3 tubes and I saw one back in 2015 and by this time, they had already mastered the technology. They have their reasons for needing to make GaAs based tubes even though they probably won't sell you one, and they have their reasons for keeping the current 4G photocathode in production, even though technically, it's Gen2.

But XR5's were keeping up with the best of Gen3 even back in 2002, and in some ways, were already exceeding Gen3's of the era. But most of the time when people say "Gen2" they mean "US-made Gen2".

To put it into another context, Superchargers are Gen2... Turbochargers are Gen3.... Modern versions of both these technologies absolutely outperform 20 year old versions of the other. ( This is literally the case ). Which would you prefer in your car? End result - each has their better characteristics, but both choices are pretty equal.

The multi-alkali tubes of today are very different from the multi-alkali tubes of the past, just as GaAs tubes of the era are very different from the past.

End result: Photocathode type, whether Metal or Semiconducter, doesn't affect present performance specifications all that much with the current level of technology.

David
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Link Posted: 2/10/2019 10:01:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2019 10:41:07 AM EST by great308]
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Originally Posted By will-1:
It’s clear the specs are really good but doesn’t it still amplify less than a Gen 3 Harris or L3?

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Originally Posted By will-1:
It’s clear the specs are really good but doesn’t it still amplify less than a Gen 3 Harris or L3?

Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
Half correct. Photonis do, actually, make Gen3 tubes and I saw one back in 2015 and by this time, they had already mastered the technology. They have their reasons for needing to make GaAs based tubes even though they probably won't sell you one, and they have their reasons for keeping the current 4G photocathode in production, even though technically, it's Gen2.

But XR5's were keeping up with the best of Gen3 even back in 2002, and in some ways, were already exceeding Gen3's of the era. But most of the time when people say "Gen2" they mean "US-made Gen2".

To put it into another context, Superchargers are Gen2... Turbochargers are Gen3.... Modern versions of both these technologies absolutely outperform 20 year old versions of the other. ( This is literally the case ). Which would you prefer in your car? End result - each has their better characteristics, but both choices are pretty equal.

The multi-alkali tubes of today are very different from the multi-alkali tubes of the past, just as GaAs tubes of the era are very different from the past.

End result: Photocathode type, whether Metal or Semiconducter, doesn't affect present performance specifications all that much with the current level of technology.

David
Specs are how they perform and amplify light. Although you have to look at more than just SNR and res, but if all the specs match on a photonis with that of a gen 3 it’s going to perform and amplify the same or in theory anyways.

If everyone can, try to respect the poster and keep it on topic and avoid the photonis vs L3 nitty gritty. The info is out there on both tubes so I think what needed to be said was said. L3 is best and photonis is really good with the edge going to really low light to the L3. It’s been beat to death.
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 11:06:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2019 11:08:17 AM EST by will-1]
I agree to respect the OP, personally I think it’s misleading to just leave it as L3 best then Photonis. SNR is important but so is the amount of gain

Edit to add: Harris/ITT is conveniently left out in these conversations

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Originally Posted By great308:

Specs are how they perform and amplify light. Although you have to look at more than just SNR and res, but if all the specs match on a photonis with that of a gen 3 it’s going to perform and amplify the same or in theory anyways.

If everyone can, try to respect the poster and keep it on topic and avoid the photonis vs L3 nitty gritty. The info is out there on both tubes so I think what needed to be said was said. L3 is best and photonis is really good with the edge going to really low light to the L3. It’s been beat to death.
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Link Posted: 2/10/2019 11:40:16 AM EST
OP, I was about to buy some RNVGs myself, but circumstances intervened.

Mod3s are nice, but I will own at least 1 extra monocular for a loaner, I’m sometimes a klutz (and thus appreciate the ruggedness of the RNVGs), and it was significantly lower in cost.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 11:46:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2019 12:12:34 PM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 3:34:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2019 3:41:14 PM EST by lilMAC25]
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Do you sell hundreds of L3 tubes yourself? Are you a direct distributor of L3 tubes? Do you deal with any RMA's or warranty work with L3?

Also, as stated along with my staff, with our hands on findings have shown us out of band with the Echo tubes are not reliable with 80% of the tubes we tested and even the INTENS needs some "tuning" either with glass and other aspects getting looked into now. These are facts and not feedback from salesmen at Photonis. Yes, we have told Photonis of our findings and so has a laser manufacture about the tweeking they have to perform.
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By Lowdown3:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I’m just pointing out that those are Ed’s words, not mine. I’ll gladly forward you the email, just hit me up via the email button here. I have no dog in this fight either.

What I posted was a direct cut, copy, and paste from that email.
Seems to fit with what Ed states here relating to ECHO spec tubes-

The Image Intensifiers in this system are a match set of the newest high performance Photonis 4G specification "Echo" Clean White Phosphor tubes having resolution of 68lp/mm and SNR over 30.0, EBI less than 0.2, and Halos smaller than 0.75mm!

The 4G Specification provides you with a Broadband of the Electromagnetic Spectrum with a Spectral Range from 400nm to 1000nm. Tests done here at Wilcox Engineering & Research show that the 4G tubes easily see Ultraviolet A and see / detect light from 10 to 30 mW IREDs producing 1050nm, 1200nm, and 1300nm. This is far beyond what Gen III tubes can detect.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-MOD-3B-Variable-Gain-White-Phosphor-Night-Vision-Monoculars-or-Goggles/173781300792?hash=item28762c3638:g:rLIAAOSwAQVcKUIC:rk:2:pf:1
Do you sell hundreds of L3 tubes yourself? Are you a direct distributor of L3 tubes? Do you deal with any RMA's or warranty work with L3?

Also, as stated along with my staff, with our hands on findings have shown us out of band with the Echo tubes are not reliable with 80% of the tubes we tested and even the INTENS needs some "tuning" either with glass and other aspects getting looked into now. These are facts and not feedback from salesmen at Photonis. Yes, we have told Photonis of our findings and so has a laser manufacture about the tweeking they have to perform.

Originally Posted By TNVC:

This sounds like a dealer trying to pimp his Photonis L3 tubes.
I mean, I really do consider you guys to be experts (and direct folks to your company quite regularly) but the blind spot you have about yourself, your marketing approach, and your own products while excoriating others is extremely ironic.
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 7:06:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2019 7:08:55 PM EST by westernhaikus1]
I am no expert. I have a decent amount of experience from buying and trying a LOT of stuff in a short period of time, but my uses are simple - just shooting at night. I do so about 6 times a year - more than some, less than some, and I don't rely on tubes to catch bad guys or defend good people overseas.

I personally have the Mod-3B with L3 white phosphor tubes, and honestly I have found it to be a little overrated. This isn't to say it's not amazing. But for the price difference, I honestly only feel like I am *slightly* deadlier in killing steel targets than with a single green 14. Sure, there is a difference. But at a price point of about $8,500 compared to around $2,000, I don't think the difference is warranted. I think the sweet spot for what I do in terms of performance to price would be either bridged 14's in a lightly blemmed but reliable set of tubes, or a good deal on a used true binocular system with older tubes, especially stuff with rotating eyepiece designs like the DTNVG or PVS15s.

The Mod3 is definitely cool, but my experience has been this: my buddies still don't care enough to shoot at night with me (for the most part), so I'm not loaning out one of the pods, and even if I wanted to, you still need to have somebody else that has a decent helmet and mount system of their own (or you supply it which adds cost). In addition, there's basically no situation where I personally would only use one of the pods when I could just be using both. Maybe for some this would be feasible.

I don't have experience with the Photonis WP tubes that have gotten really popular, but most of the user reports I read make me think that they aren't really for me. Not to say they aren't for someone else. But this is another area where I'd rather get upper echelon greens for about the same cost that will perform better with no ambient light than have Photonis WP that might leave something to be desired and require IR supplement.
Link Posted: 2/11/2019 2:31:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/11/2019 2:34:44 AM EST by MunnyShot]
@TNVC Vic, no disrespect to you and your company, but I think most people take what Ed Wilcox says about Photonis Echo tubes as a good reason to consider them over current L3 filmless option since he is "The Godfather or NV" It's hard for people to see for themselves a direct comparison between the L3 and Echo tubes side by side since it's a very small community to begin with. In states like Texas where a lot of night hunting is done it's much easier to find friends with different kit to see the difference first hand vs here in Cali where we live and users are far and few between. I know Terry1 (very knowledgeable) rented both a L3 and Photonis Echo NV to do a side by side review and he did give the win to L3, but again the specs of the tubes where unknown since it was an uncontrolled comparison. As for me I'm extremely happy with my L3 and Harris/ITT NV and have no desire to switch anytime soon, but then again I'd thought I'd be happy with a single PVS14 not that long ago. As all ways keep doing what you do since it's very much appreciated by myself and others here. IMHO I really like the "No B.S." tell it like it is that TNVC is known for whether you make a sale or not attitude, it shows it's not about the sale, but about the knowledge for the buyer to make an informed decision.

OP to get back on track: Buy the RNVGs, since they'll mysteriously multiply all by themselves so you will be able to share with friends in the not to distant future.
Link Posted: 2/11/2019 10:55:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2019 11:17:28 PM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 2/11/2019 11:59:08 AM EST
I picked MOD-3 and am extremely happy with it. The main reason was the ability to separate. I didn't think I'd really ever use it as a single that much, but I have far more than I anticipated. A handheld monocular has come in handy much more than I thought. If remote battery pack is important to you, MOD-3 also can be modified for this. I think even by the user if you just buy the part. I haven't done it, not entirely sure about that. Mine is still on its original CR123 battery. Unsure of how many hours, but it seems like a lot.
Link Posted: 2/11/2019 12:07:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
I picked MOD-3 and am extremely happy with it. The main reason was the ability to separate. I didn't think I'd really ever use it as a single that much, but I have far more than I anticipated. A handheld monocular has come in handy much more than I thought. If remote battery pack is important to you, MOD-3 also can be modified for this. I think even by the user if you just buy the part. I haven't done it, not entirely sure about that. Mine is still on its original CR123 battery. Unsure of how many hours, but it seems like a lot.
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Thanks for your input.
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