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Posted: 2/8/2019 6:39:41 PM EST
I'm looking for some user experience here. I originally was going to get a PVS-14 and then debate if I want to upgrade to duals based on use. After much thought, I think I'll regret just not getting dual tubes on the outset.

I spoke with Augee at TNVC in relation to dual tubes that articulate vs. those that don't. I know some of this is user preference, but I just don't see myself using the articulating feature enough to justify the extra expense to get a unit that does it (I'm not going to be putting thermal to one eye, etc.) The RNVGs and Mod3s are less expensive than some of the other options out there and seem to offer what I'm looking for.

I see that the RNVGs now have the remote battery pack option and are also available with a CR123 battery. So the benefit to the Sentinels over RNVGs has more or less been eliminated (at least in my mind).

The reason I'm considering the Mod3s was simple based on the ability to use one as a monocular. I plan on bringing night vision backpacking and I'm just trying to figure out whether hauling along dual tubes vs. a monocular is worth the extra weight and how much of a pain in the ass it will be. The other thought behind the Mod 3 is the ability to pull it off and use it with a spotting scope (again not something that would be a primary use, just a fun thing to play around with). On top of that, I'd obviously have the ability to outfit a friend with night vision (although I don't know how often that would realistically happen). I realize that the number of times I'd realistically be splitting off one of the tubes is minimal, but I'm trying to figure out if it is conceivably enough to make the Mod 3 the top contender.

Those of you that have either of these care to weigh in as to why you went with one over the other and whether you find yourself wishing you went a different direction or if you've noticed anything lacking with your choice?

I appreciate any input you guys have. I've been learning about night vision and asking a lot of questions, but I clearly lack the experience that some of you all have.
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 6:52:04 PM EST
I'm in a similar situation and standing by for advice. I have 2 almost identical PVS-14's that I'd like to make into a bino but don't know where to start.
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 6:55:11 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I'm in a similar situation and standing by for advice. I have 2 almost identical PVS-14's that I'd like to make into a bino but don't know where to start.
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Someone far better versed than I will weigh in (I'm sure of it) but my understanding is you can have the tubes put into a new housing (I think there are some caveats like it has to be compatible with the housing...).
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 7:36:47 PM EST
If you like having the gain feature you can have the tubes put into a bnvd with gain control like the night vision devices bnvd-sg. JRH offers that and NVD themselves too

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I'm in a similar situation and standing by for advice. I have 2 almost identical PVS-14's that I'd like to make into a bino but don't know where to start.
View Quote
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 7:40:24 PM EST
This comes down to do you want to split them up or not. All else is fairly similar if not the same.

Most people into night vision will tell you that you won’t split them up as often as you think, because you will want to use the investment for yourself. IE don’t keep supporting your buddies/whatever when you could have duals on.

It’s my opinion, if you forsee others joining you it’s much better to get yourself duals (whether RNVG or MOD3) and get a loaner PVS-14.
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 9:17:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By mzincamo:
This comes down to do you want to split them up or not. All else is fairly similar if not the same.

Most people into night vision will tell you that you won’t split them up as often as you think, because you will want to use the investment for yourself. IE don’t keep supporting your buddies/whatever when you could have duals on.

It’s my opinion, if you forsee others joining you it’s much better to get yourself duals (whether RNVG or MOD3) and get a loaner PVS-14.
View Quote
I recognize that I likely won't split them as often as I think. I think part of my attraction of the Mod 3 is the ability to do so, particularly in the backpacking scenario or using it to capture things with a camera, etc.
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 9:21:21 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
I'm in a similar situation and standing by for advice. I have 2 almost identical PVS-14's that I'd like to make into a bino but don't know where to start.
View Quote
Tnvc bridge mount.
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 9:28:31 PM EST
RNVG, once you really start messing around with duals you really don't want to go back. I have a pvs14 in addition to the rnvg and I rarely if ever use the 14 and if it does get use it's as a loaner. I had considered the same thing over mod3 vs dedicated dual. Now that I have the rnvg there is really no way I'd want to split them, just seems like more than I want to do to reconfigure them. If I was going hiking with them I prefer duals, I will take the slight weight penalty to have duals. I've always been a duals ar better but that is more personal preference than factual as it's been proven in allot of cases that duals are not necessarily better.

If you ever want another one for loaner or spotting then look for a 14 down the road as stated. 14's with a decent blemish tube can be had for cheap today, or go for a digital mono is option too.
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 10:44:09 PM EST
As a new owner that just got into Night Vision I can give you my opinion.

I was looking at a PVS14 setup due to cost. We met up with a great guy somewhat local to shoot and check out BNVD's, PVS15's and PVS14's once it got dark.

The PVS14... my eyes kept trying to focus on the non NV eye which was pitch black. I guess I could get me eyes trained the more that I would use them. If thats all that funds could limit, then I think you'd be happy.

Once I put on the BNVD'S, there was no going back. They are awesome. I do like being able to articulate either one up and down separately. I frequently let others looks through it and having the ability of just grabbing either side to get your eye spacing right makes it a breeze. With others you'll have knobs on the sides to space them closer or further apart.

Get what you could afford, no regrets and then IR all things. You will look forward to nightfall all the time.
Link Posted: 2/8/2019 10:56:01 PM EST
Having binos or a bioccular (PVS7) is easier on your brain when first starting out since you eyes see the same thing and depth perception is extremely better vs a mono 14. If you use a 14 enough and getting your non -aided eye to see what your aided eye sees moving will be 2nd nature aka shooting with both eyes open while still having a crystal clear front sight. If backpacking is your main use I'd usually say a mono 14 and a Crye Night Cap, but if you're going to be climbing, driving or on rough terrain go with a bino with a good bump helmet. My first personal owned NV was a 14, then dual 14 on a bridge, bought a PVS7, then finally ended up with bionos. If I where to do it over again on a tight budget I go with a bioccular Gen3 PVS7, then save for a Gen3 14 since I do like the light weight and it's very packable both for under 4,500. If you have the 6,000 plus than by all means buy a set of binos you will not be disappointed. Also NV is known to multiply all by itself and next thing you know you have more systems than you know what to do with. I'm not sure if you're aware but the MOD3 now have an articulating model. The ability to split Mod3s are a great feature, but only if you really really need it. Bringing the extra pod adapters, then having to store the dual bridge somewhere is kind of a pain. Having a dedicated bino setup such as the RNVG IMHO is a better option especially from a durability point.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 11:17:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 11:18:49 AM EST by terry1]
I’ve purchased brand new WP DTNVG and built up a set of RNVG’s with extra tubes I had both in the last few months. I ended up selling the RNVG to a buddy and keeping the DTNVG because I do use the pivoting housing feature every single time I go out for a stroll.

I hang a thermal mono around my neck and the DTNVG allows me to pivot up and turn off one side and still have the other side working as a monocular. Then I use thermal mono same time scanning while on the move very handy for me. Overall both styles are super nice it’s juts a user preference and personal requirements.

I would buy the RNVG over MOD’s myself I had the same choices and was back and forth when the RNVG housing arrived I knew I had made the right choice :)
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 11:59:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 12:21:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
Having binos or a bioccular (PVS7) is easier on your brain when first starting out since you eyes see the same thing and depth perception is extremely better vs a mono 14. If you use a 14 enough and getting your non -aided eye to see what your aided eye sees moving will be 2nd nature aka shooting with both eyes open while still having a crystal clear front sight. If backpacking is your main use I'd usually say a mono 14 and a Crye Night Cap, but if you're going to be climbing, driving or on rough terrain go with a bino with a good bump helmet. My first personal owned NV was a 14, then dual 14 on a bridge, bought a PVS7, then finally ended up with bionos. If I where to do it over again on a tight budget I go with a bioccular Gen3 PVS7, then save for a Gen3 14 since I do like the light weight and it's very packable both for under 4,500. If you have the 6,000 plus than by all means buy a set of binos you will not be disappointed. Also NV is known to multiply all by itself and next thing you know you have more systems than you know what to do with. I'm not sure if you're aware but the MOD3 now have an articulating model. The ability to split Mod3s are a great feature, but only if you really really need it. Bringing the extra pod adapters, then having to store the dual bridge somewhere is kind of a pain. Having a dedicated bino setup such as the RNVG IMHO is a better option especially from a durability point.
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I know there are articulating Sentinels now... link to FloppyBois Mod3s?
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 12:28:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
I know there are articulating Sentinels now... link to FloppyBois Mod3s?
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
Having binos or a bioccular (PVS7) is easier on your brain when first starting out since you eyes see the same thing and depth perception is extremely better vs a mono 14. If you use a 14 enough and getting your non -aided eye to see what your aided eye sees moving will be 2nd nature aka shooting with both eyes open while still having a crystal clear front sight. If backpacking is your main use I'd usually say a mono 14 and a Crye Night Cap, but if you're going to be climbing, driving or on rough terrain go with a bino with a good bump helmet. My first personal owned NV was a 14, then dual 14 on a bridge, bought a PVS7, then finally ended up with bionos. If I where to do it over again on a tight budget I go with a bioccular Gen3 PVS7, then save for a Gen3 14 since I do like the light weight and it's very packable both for under 4,500. If you have the 6,000 plus than by all means buy a set of binos you will not be disappointed. Also NV is known to multiply all by itself and next thing you know you have more systems than you know what to do with. I'm not sure if you're aware but the MOD3 now have an articulating model. The ability to split Mod3s are a great feature, but only if you really really need it. Bringing the extra pod adapters, then having to store the dual bridge somewhere is kind of a pain. Having a dedicated bino setup such as the RNVG IMHO is a better option especially from a durability point.
I know there are articulating Sentinels now... link to FloppyBois Mod3s?
Said floppy instead of flippy again. Good man.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 12:35:20 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Said floppy instead of flippy again. Good man.
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
Having binos or a bioccular (PVS7) is easier on your brain when first starting out since you eyes see the same thing and depth perception is extremely better vs a mono 14. If you use a 14 enough and getting your non -aided eye to see what your aided eye sees moving will be 2nd nature aka shooting with both eyes open while still having a crystal clear front sight. If backpacking is your main use I'd usually say a mono 14 and a Crye Night Cap, but if you're going to be climbing, driving or on rough terrain go with a bino with a good bump helmet. My first personal owned NV was a 14, then dual 14 on a bridge, bought a PVS7, then finally ended up with bionos. If I where to do it over again on a tight budget I go with a bioccular Gen3 PVS7, then save for a Gen3 14 since I do like the light weight and it's very packable both for under 4,500. If you have the 6,000 plus than by all means buy a set of binos you will not be disappointed. Also NV is known to multiply all by itself and next thing you know you have more systems than you know what to do with. I'm not sure if you're aware but the MOD3 now have an articulating model. The ability to split Mod3s are a great feature, but only if you really really need it. Bringing the extra pod adapters, then having to store the dual bridge somewhere is kind of a pain. Having a dedicated bino setup such as the RNVG IMHO is a better option especially from a durability point.
I know there are articulating Sentinels now... link to FloppyBois Mod3s?
Said floppy instead of flippy again. Good man.
I think FloppyBois is how the preferred nomenclature.

Link Posted: 2/9/2019 12:50:11 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
I think FloppyBois is how the preferred nomenclature.

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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
Having binos or a bioccular (PVS7) is easier on your brain when first starting out since you eyes see the same thing and depth perception is extremely better vs a mono 14. If you use a 14 enough and getting your non -aided eye to see what your aided eye sees moving will be 2nd nature aka shooting with both eyes open while still having a crystal clear front sight. If backpacking is your main use I'd usually say a mono 14 and a Crye Night Cap, but if you're going to be climbing, driving or on rough terrain go with a bino with a good bump helmet. My first personal owned NV was a 14, then dual 14 on a bridge, bought a PVS7, then finally ended up with bionos. If I where to do it over again on a tight budget I go with a bioccular Gen3 PVS7, then save for a Gen3 14 since I do like the light weight and it's very packable both for under 4,500. If you have the 6,000 plus than by all means buy a set of binos you will not be disappointed. Also NV is known to multiply all by itself and next thing you know you have more systems than you know what to do with. I'm not sure if you're aware but the MOD3 now have an articulating model. The ability to split Mod3s are a great feature, but only if you really really need it. Bringing the extra pod adapters, then having to store the dual bridge somewhere is kind of a pain. Having a dedicated bino setup such as the RNVG IMHO is a better option especially from a durability point.
I know there are articulating Sentinels now... link to FloppyBois Mod3s?
Said floppy instead of flippy again. Good man.
I think FloppyBois is how the preferred nomenclature.

+87
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 1:05:49 PM EST
@TNVC_Augee I saw your thread when I was looking last night after our conversation.

I guess I'm just really stuck on the ability to make the most out of my purchase now. As I said on the phone, I have no idea how often I'd remove a pod vs never.

Again, I'm not looking to necessarily outfit my friends all the time. I don't know what I'm doing.

Also are there flippy boy Mod 3s now?
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 1:15:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperMoose:
@TNVC_Augee I saw your thread when I was looking last night after our conversation.

I guess I'm just really stuck on the ability to make the most out of my purchase now. As I said on the phone, I have no idea how often I'd remove a pod vs never.

Again, I'm not looking to necessarily outfit my friends all the time. I don't know what I'm doing.

Also are there flippy boy Mod 3s now?
View Quote
I think I can make this really simple for you.

Buy the most features you can afford. The end.

You will never say "gee I wish I wasn't able to remove a pod" or "I wish I had less features/adjustability"

Swing for the fence.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 2:08:09 PM EST
I have two sets of MOD3s. I chose them so I could split up the binos.

One time I had a tube die on me. So I took off that pod an was able to use them as a mono if needed. Just a rare instance if using used tubes.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 2:37:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 5:14:12 PM EST by ChandlerKJ]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By terry1:
I’ve purchased brand new WP DTNVG and built up a set of RNVG’s with extra tubes I had both in the last few months. I ended up selling the RNVG to a buddy and keeping the DTNVG because I do use the pivoting housing feature every single time I go out for a stroll.

I hang a thermal mono around my neck and the DTNVG allows me to pivot up and turn off one side and still have the other side working as a monocular. Then I use thermal mono same time scanning while on the move very handy for me. Overall both styles are super nice it’s juts a user preference and personal requirements.

I would buy the RNVG over MOD’s myself I had the same choices and was back and forth when the RNVG housing arrived I knew I had made the right choice :)
View Quote
I’d be REALLY interested in a full in depth review of the DTNVG. I know TNVC is selling them with L3 WP tubes but I was under the impression that because it is a Euro design, the fitment is just a hair different. While doable, the L3/pvs14 guts aren’t a direct swap. I’d certainly not want any photonis tubes or whatever in them either.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 4:26:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
I’d be REALLY interested in a full in depth review of the DTNVG. I know TNVC is selling them with L3 WP tubes but I was under the impression that because it is a Euro design, the figment is just a hair different. While doable, the L3/pvs14 guts aren’t a direct swap. I’d certainly not want any photonis tubes or whatever in them either.
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Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By terry1:
I’ve purchased brand new WP DTNVG and built up a set of RNVG’s with extra tubes I had both in the last few months. I ended up selling the RNVG to a buddy and keeping the DTNVG because I do use the pivoting housing feature every single time I go out for a stroll.

I hang a thermal mono around my neck and the DTNVG allows me to pivot up and turn off one side and still have the other side working as a monocular. Then I use thermal mono same time scanning while on the move very handy for me. Overall both styles are super nice it’s juts a user preference and personal requirements.

I would buy the RNVG over MOD’s myself I had the same choices and was back and forth when the RNVG housing arrived I knew I had made the right choice :)
I’d be REALLY interested in a full in depth review of the DTNVG. I know TNVC is selling them with L3 WP tubes but I was under the impression that because it is a Euro design, the figment is just a hair different. While doable, the L3/pvs14 guts aren’t a direct swap. I’d certainly not want any photonis tubes or whatever in them either.
Please elaborate on why you wouldn’t want Photonis tubes in them. That’s how they’re sold in Europe...
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 5:13:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Please elaborate on why you wouldn’t want Photonis tubes in them. That’s how they’re sold in Europe...
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By terry1:
I’ve purchased brand new WP DTNVG and built up a set of RNVG’s with extra tubes I had both in the last few months. I ended up selling the RNVG to a buddy and keeping the DTNVG because I do use the pivoting housing feature every single time I go out for a stroll.

I hang a thermal mono around my neck and the DTNVG allows me to pivot up and turn off one side and still have the other side working as a monocular. Then I use thermal mono same time scanning while on the move very handy for me. Overall both styles are super nice it’s juts a user preference and personal requirements.

I would buy the RNVG over MOD’s myself I had the same choices and was back and forth when the RNVG housing arrived I knew I had made the right choice :)
I’d be REALLY interested in a full in depth review of the DTNVG. I know TNVC is selling them with L3 WP tubes but I was under the impression that because it is a Euro design, the figment is just a hair different. While doable, the L3/pvs14 guts aren’t a direct swap. I’d certainly not want any photonis tubes or whatever in them either.
Please elaborate on why you wouldn’t want Photonis tubes in them. That’s how they’re sold in Europe...
I'd love to.

I was under the impression that they are all gen 2. For the money spent on DTNVGs (nearly 10k), I'd want the best money can buy and I (from what little research I can read) believe that to be the filmless L3 WP tubes. If I am incorrect about ether of those things, I am more than willing to hear why. I have no ego invested in any NVG system.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 5:37:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 5:43:16 PM EST by alacop]
Help me understand something. I have two pvs 14s can I just get a bridge and wala duals? Or is it more complicated? Something like this.

N-Vision Dual PVS-14 AdapterAttachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 6:18:09 PM EST
Look at the Mod Armory D-14’s or the new TNVC dual mount. At least with those you can adjust your eye spacing plus rotate them like a BNVD

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By alacop:
Help me understand something. I have two pvs 14s can I just get a bridge and wala duals? Or is it more complicated? Something like this.

N-Vision Dual PVS-14 Adapterhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/276816/products-Dual_PVS14_Adapter_jpg-839781.JPG
View Quote
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 6:39:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 6:40:31 PM EST by MrPlayer]
I think the MOD3s ability to be a good bino while also allowing you to have 2monos make it one of the smartest Dual tube decisions one can make if they only have one or two sets of NVG. It allows the greatest possibility of uses out of two tubes.

I’m often amazed they dont seem more popular. They are my go to set up but that’s another story. Attachment Attached File


Actually this pic was taken by dismounting the NV side of my giggle so my friend could take a white instead of green pic.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 6:43:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 7:09:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I know there are articulating Sentinels now... link to FloppyBois Mod3s?
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Nope I screwed the pooch I typed Mod3, but was thinking Sentinels.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 7:23:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By alacop:
Help me understand something. I have two pvs 14s can I just get a bridge and wala duals? Or is it more complicated? Something like this.

N-Vision Dual PVS-14 Adapterhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/276816/products-Dual_PVS14_Adapter_jpg-839781.JPG
View Quote
Slapping to 14s together will work, but having them closely matched in performance will cause less eye strain. IMHO the main reason to run duals is the ability to separate them easily without the use of tools. Like other's have mentioned look into the D-14 bridge if you're going the dual 14 route.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 7:56:57 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:

Slapping to 14s together will work, but having them closely matched in performance will cause less eye strain. IMHO the main reason to run duals is the ability to separate them easily without the use of tools. Like other's have mentioned look into the D-14 bridge if you're going the dual 14 route.
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Collimation is probably more important than matching. That's what causes eyestrain.

PVS-14 tubes that are in-spec can be out of axis by more than 3x the standard required for unmatched ANVIS.

David
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 8:13:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 8:17:24 PM EST by lilMAC25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
I'd love to.

I was under the impression that they are all gen 2. For the money spent on DTNVGs (nearly 10k), I'd want the best money can buy and I (from what little research I can read) believe that to be the filmless L3 WP tubes. If I am incorrect about ether of those things, I am more than willing to hear why. I have no ego invested in any NVG system.
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Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By terry1:
I’ve purchased brand new WP DTNVG and built up a set of RNVG’s with extra tubes I had both in the last few months. I ended up selling the RNVG to a buddy and keeping the DTNVG because I do use the pivoting housing feature every single time I go out for a stroll.

I hang a thermal mono around my neck and the DTNVG allows me to pivot up and turn off one side and still have the other side working as a monocular. Then I use thermal mono same time scanning while on the move very handy for me. Overall both styles are super nice it’s juts a user preference and personal requirements.

I would buy the RNVG over MOD’s myself I had the same choices and was back and forth when the RNVG housing arrived I knew I had made the right choice :)
I’d be REALLY interested in a full in depth review of the DTNVG. I know TNVC is selling them with L3 WP tubes but I was under the impression that because it is a Euro design, the figment is just a hair different. While doable, the L3/pvs14 guts aren’t a direct swap. I’d certainly not want any photonis tubes or whatever in them either.
Please elaborate on why you wouldn’t want Photonis tubes in them. That’s how they’re sold in Europe...
I'd love to.

I was under the impression that they are all gen 2. For the money spent on DTNVGs (nearly 10k), I'd want the best money can buy and I (from what little research I can read) believe that to be the filmless L3 WP tubes. If I am incorrect about ether of those things, I am more than willing to hear why. I have no ego invested in any NVG system.
Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 8:22:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 8:23:47 PM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 8:26:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 8:30:43 PM EST by lilMAC25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:
Out of hundreds of L3 filmless tubes we build, we have yet to have have any issues with emission points. This sounds like a dealer trying to pimp his Photonis tubes. Also the 4G INTENS is still not on same level as the L3 filmless in very dark environments. They are the closest to the L3, but not quite.
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By terry1:
I’ve purchased brand new WP DTNVG and built up a set of RNVG’s with extra tubes I had both in the last few months. I ended up selling the RNVG to a buddy and keeping the DTNVG because I do use the pivoting housing feature every single time I go out for a stroll.

I hang a thermal mono around my neck and the DTNVG allows me to pivot up and turn off one side and still have the other side working as a monocular. Then I use thermal mono same time scanning while on the move very handy for me. Overall both styles are super nice it’s juts a user preference and personal requirements.

I would buy the RNVG over MOD’s myself I had the same choices and was back and forth when the RNVG housing arrived I knew I had made the right choice :)
I’d be REALLY interested in a full in depth review of the DTNVG. I know TNVC is selling them with L3 WP tubes but I was under the impression that because it is a Euro design, the figment is just a hair different. While doable, the L3/pvs14 guts aren’t a direct swap. I’d certainly not want any photonis tubes or whatever in them either.
Please elaborate on why you wouldn’t want Photonis tubes in them. That’s how they’re sold in Europe...
I'd love to.

I was under the impression that they are all gen 2. For the money spent on DTNVGs (nearly 10k), I'd want the best money can buy and I (from what little research I can read) believe that to be the filmless L3 WP tubes. If I am incorrect about ether of those things, I am more than willing to hear why. I have no ego invested in any NVG system.
Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
Out of hundreds of L3 filmless tubes we build, we have yet to have have any issues with emission points. This sounds like a dealer trying to pimp his Photonis tubes. Also the 4G INTENS is still not on same level as the L3 filmless in very dark environments. They are the closest to the L3, but not quite.
Take it up with Ed Wilcox. And as I stated, he wasnt trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand.

Good choice. L-3 tubes are problematic unless you have some one tune the emission point out of them and to make other adjustments the factory can't seem to do correctly so that you get a fantastic image that is clear, crisp, with low noise and EBI, that enables you to see very clearly at very low light levels. Emission point eventually burn a black spot in the image that gets bigger with time.
I’ll take your word for it on low light performance. Ed told me in the same email that Photonis regularly has 4G tubes with 86 lp/mm performance.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 8:28:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 8:31:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 8:37:37 PM EST by lilMAC25]
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
No need, we've never had a single RMA, nor warranty issue with L3 on any emission stuff.
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By ChandlerKJ:
Originally Posted By terry1:
I’ve purchased brand new WP DTNVG and built up a set of RNVG’s with extra tubes I had both in the last few months. I ended up selling the RNVG to a buddy and keeping the DTNVG because I do use the pivoting housing feature every single time I go out for a stroll.

I hang a thermal mono around my neck and the DTNVG allows me to pivot up and turn off one side and still have the other side working as a monocular. Then I use thermal mono same time scanning while on the move very handy for me. Overall both styles are super nice it’s juts a user preference and personal requirements.

I would buy the RNVG over MOD’s myself I had the same choices and was back and forth when the RNVG housing arrived I knew I had made the right choice :)
I’d be REALLY interested in a full in depth review of the DTNVG. I know TNVC is selling them with L3 WP tubes but I was under the impression that because it is a Euro design, the figment is just a hair different. While doable, the L3/pvs14 guts aren’t a direct swap. I’d certainly not want any photonis tubes or whatever in them either.
Please elaborate on why you wouldn’t want Photonis tubes in them. That’s how they’re sold in Europe...
I'd love to.

I was under the impression that they are all gen 2. For the money spent on DTNVGs (nearly 10k), I'd want the best money can buy and I (from what little research I can read) believe that to be the filmless L3 WP tubes. If I am incorrect about ether of those things, I am more than willing to hear why. I have no ego invested in any NVG system.
Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
Out of hundreds of L3 filmless tubes we build, we have yet to have have any issues with emission points. This sounds like a dealer trying to pimp his Photonis tubes. Also the 4G INTENS is still not on same level as the L3 filmless in very dark environments. They are the closest to the L3, but not quite.
Take it up with Ed Wilcox.

Good choice. L-3 tubes are problematic unless you have some one tune the emission point out of them and to make other adjustments the factory can't seem to do correctly so that you get a fantastic image that is clear, crisp, with low noise and EBI, that enables you to see very clearly at very low light levels. Emission point eventually burn a black spot in the image that gets bigger with time.
No need, we've never had a single RMA, nor warranty issue with L3 on any emission stuff.
I’m just pointing out that those are Ed’s words, not mine. I’ll gladly forward you the email, just hit me up via the email button here. I have no dog in this fight either.

What I posted was a direct cut, copy, and paste from that email.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 8:46:22 PM EST
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
View Quote
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 9:01:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By txdx:
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
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Originally Posted By txdx:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
A small part of me hopes that does happen. I need to turn my PVS-14 with L3 FL WP tube into green duals.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 9:10:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By txdx:
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
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Originally Posted By txdx:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
That was my understanding as well, but I was told they are Gen 3. Also was told their life expectancy is equivalent to that of Gen 3.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 9:20:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/9/2019 9:23:04 PM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 9:36:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Not sure about "drying up". Funny how these rumors start... We heard that a few years ago as well with thousands of filmless tubes going to SOCOM. So far, "great tubes" are still abundant. Also heard the same thing about Atpial-C's while back that the huge Atpial contracts would force very few C models. That never happened either with production capacity at 14K+ a month.
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Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By txdx:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
Not sure about "drying up". Funny how these rumors start... We heard that a few years ago as well with thousands of filmless tubes going to SOCOM. So far, "great tubes" are still abundant. Also heard the same thing about Atpial-C's while back that the huge Atpial contracts would force very few C models. That never happened either with production capacity at 14K+ a month.
I’d expect it to mean more nice tubes “drop out” due to not meeting spec for whatever contract (but still meeting my “holy shit that’s awesome” spec) and making it into the civi market.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 9:47:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
I’d expect it to mean more nice tubes “drop out” due to not meeting spec for whatever contract (but still meeting my “holy shit that’s awesome” spec) and making it into the civi market.
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By txdx:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
Not sure about "drying up". Funny how these rumors start... We heard that a few years ago as well with thousands of filmless tubes going to SOCOM. So far, "great tubes" are still abundant. Also heard the same thing about Atpial-C's while back that the huge Atpial contracts would force very few C models. That never happened either with production capacity at 14K+ a month.
I’d expect it to mean more nice tubes “drop out” due to not meeting spec for whatever contract (but still meeting my “holy shit that’s awesome” spec) and making it into the civi market.
Well, depends if the ANVIS contract is for panos or not. Since the ANVIS-10's use 16mm tubes they would be useless to most of us.

I haven't seen what the contract is for exactly tho
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 9:49:02 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Well, depends if the ANVIS contract is for panos or not. Since the ANVIS-10's use 16mm tubes they would be useless to most of us.

I haven't seen what the contract is for exactly tho
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By txdx:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
Not sure about "drying up". Funny how these rumors start... We heard that a few years ago as well with thousands of filmless tubes going to SOCOM. So far, "great tubes" are still abundant. Also heard the same thing about Atpial-C's while back that the huge Atpial contracts would force very few C models. That never happened either with production capacity at 14K+ a month.
I’d expect it to mean more nice tubes “drop out” due to not meeting spec for whatever contract (but still meeting my “holy shit that’s awesome” spec) and making it into the civi market.
Well, depends if the ANVIS contract is for panos or not. Since the ANVIS-10's use 16mm tubes they would be useless to most of us.

I haven't seen what the contract is for exactly tho
Maybe drive down the price of those mini Duals that use 16mm tubes?
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 9:50:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Maybe drive down the price of those mini Duals that use 16mm tubes?
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Originally Posted By TNVC:
Originally Posted By txdx:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

Thanks, and FWIW, I was under the same impression...

From my discussions with 3 different NV experts (2 that I’d consider gurus, Ed Wilcox & Glynn from NVinc, one a Photonis rep), Photonis 4G tubes (including the Echos) are Gen 3. The top of the line Photonis 4G Intens are on a level playing field with L3 filmless. Photonis makes 4G Intens tubes that exceed L3 filmless supertubes in some categories.

Now their Echo tubes are closer in spec to mid level Omni VII’s from what I understand.

In short, Photonis makes Gen 2 and Gen 3 tubes and their 4G lines are all Gen 3.

One guru I’ve talked to said that L3 has real and ongoing issues with emission points in their L3 filmless (and he wasn’t trying to sell me tubes as I have some in hand).
The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
Not sure about "drying up". Funny how these rumors start... We heard that a few years ago as well with thousands of filmless tubes going to SOCOM. So far, "great tubes" are still abundant. Also heard the same thing about Atpial-C's while back that the huge Atpial contracts would force very few C models. That never happened either with production capacity at 14K+ a month.
I’d expect it to mean more nice tubes “drop out” due to not meeting spec for whatever contract (but still meeting my “holy shit that’s awesome” spec) and making it into the civi market.
Well, depends if the ANVIS contract is for panos or not. Since the ANVIS-10's use 16mm tubes they would be useless to most of us.

I haven't seen what the contract is for exactly tho
Maybe drive down the price of those mini Duals that use 16mm tubes?
That would be cool.
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 10:27:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:

That would be cool.
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Agreed. Probably not likely, but... a man can dream, right?
Link Posted: 2/9/2019 11:40:59 PM EST
Any chance you guys mind keeping this thread on topic about the question I asked?
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 12:01:14 AM EST
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Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I'd expect it to mean more nice tubes "drop out" due to not meeting spec for whatever contract (but still meeting my "holy shit that's awesome" spec) and making it into the civi market.
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This, in fact, is what is happening, and why there are so many good tubes around at the moment.

L3 has some big high-spec orders with a very high threshold, so they would need to make way more tubes than the order requires.

David
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 12:10:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2019 12:13:00 AM EST by MILSPEC556]
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Originally Posted By SuperMoose:
Any chance you guys mind keeping this thread on topic about the question I asked?
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Sure. What are you not liking about the MOD-3 answers? Its the most recommended in this thread
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 12:18:21 AM EST
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Originally Posted By txdx:

The Photonis tubes are, technically, Gen 2. Not run of the mill Gen 2, but still Gen 2. A GaAs photocathode is the defining characteristic of Gen 3 tubes. The Photonis tubes don't use a GaAs PC but are still awesome. No doubt performance can rival and sometimes exceed filmless Gen 3 tubes. With L3 getting a big contract for ANVIS tubes, I'd expect the supply of "great" tubes with enviable specs to dry up in the near future. Photonis tubes may very well become the best available for an extended time.
View Quote
Half correct. Photonis do, actually, make Gen3 tubes and I saw one back in 2015 and by this time, they had already mastered the technology. They have their reasons for needing to make GaAs based tubes even though they probably won't sell you one, and they have their reasons for keeping the current 4G photocathode in production, even though technically, it's Gen2.

But XR5's were keeping up with the best of Gen3 even back in 2002, and in some ways, were already exceeding Gen3's of the era. But most of the time when people say "Gen2" they mean "US-made Gen2".

To put it into another context, Superchargers are Gen2... Turbochargers are Gen3.... Modern versions of both these technologies absolutely outperform 20 year old versions of the other. ( This is literally the case ). Which would you prefer in your car? End result - each has their better characteristics, but both choices are pretty equal.

The multi-alkali tubes of today are very different from the multi-alkali tubes of the past, just as GaAs tubes of the era are very different from the past.

End result: Photocathode type, whether Metal or Semiconducter, doesn't affect present performance specifications all that much with the current level of technology.

David
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 12:31:29 AM EST
Since you asked about tubes.

L3 is best, costs more money. Photonis is little cheaper and still dang good quality. The defining factor of what a gen 3 is is kind of an outdated specification in sorts and the technology has been push far beyond what anyone could of thought when those specs were defined.

What does that mean. Well just because a photonis is not a gen 3 doesn’t mean they don’t meet gen 3 performance. The actual tube specs and performance is meeting and exceeding some others. L3 filmless is still king but the photonis is not far behind. I was quite impressed looking through the photonis compared to L3 thin filmed gen 3 and Harris thin filmed gen 3 anvis I had on hand.

So yes L3 is best and photonis is a dang great tube too. Course so are the higher spec thin filmed gen 3 as well. Unless you are kicking down doors I don’t much see the need for the highest spec, highest priced tube in my opinion.
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 6:39:31 AM EST
The famed L3 are cucks posting is flashing back to me in all its glory I'm afraid lol
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 7:36:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By jpmuscle:
The famed L3 are cucks posting is flashing back to me in all its glory I'm afraid lol
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First thing I thought of too when the conversation shifted to L3 vs photonis
Link Posted: 2/10/2019 8:18:20 AM EST
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