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Posted: 8/8/2022 9:55:41 PM EDT
[#1]
I am loading 55 gn FMJBT subs for my PS-90 SBR.
Lacquer or no lacquer, it works just fine. I havent played with a 5.7 pistol, sorry. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 7:29:06 AM EDT
[#2]
My hunch is that the lower pressure 55gr loads aren't expanding the case as much and doing so for a shorter period of time compared to the lighter bullet/higher pressure and velocity loads. This means the exterior of the case is "held" with less force by the chamber and therefore "let go" sooner than the higher pressure loads that really seal inside the chamber. Just my hunch, but my 55gr subsonic loads came out dirtier than my 40gr supers and I'm guessing it has to do with more crud blowing back between the chamber and case in the lower velocity/pressure subs.
@Hoser What's your 55gr subs load for your SBR'd PS90? I messed around with a few less than optimal powders and while I could get a ~1,000fps load with 55gr Hornady bulk FMJs, I would end up with mag popping issues. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 7:42:08 AM EDT
[#3]
I’m using HS-6 for my 55 grain subs. Don’t have my load data in front of me tho.
It doesn’t even blow the necks forward. ETA for a PS-90 |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 8:10:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m using HS-6 for my 55 grain subs. Don’t have my load data in front of me tho. It doesn’t even blow the necks forward. ETA for a PS-90 16" barrel or SBR'd? I didn't do any load dev for my PS90 before the short barrel got installed, but I have to imagine the load would need to be different for the long barrel. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 9:14:39 AM EDT
[#5]
I'm using Accurate #7 on my subs in the P90 (SBR). Rocking right at 1050 fps ish. I was trying the 62gr Hornady FMJs and had good luck with those in the 10.4" barrel, but they are erractic accuracy wise in the FSN so I went back to 55gr, but those are harder to get to cycle in the FSN with cans at 6 oz of heavier.
From my perspective I spend more time removing the factory coating, then just washing the brass in simple green and moving about my business. I found it extremely difficult to remove. Can I ask the question as to why you want to remove it? |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 10:31:09 AM EDT
[#6]
This is only a guess but I think your first two rounds fail to eject from the barrel being cold. After it warms up and expands a bit from the heat the remaining rounds function normally. So I wonder if the barrels chamber was polished slightly to open it up just a touch, would that solve the cold barrel failures? I was extremally interested in this caliber UNTIL I read about the lacquer coating and the problems with reloading.
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Posted: 8/9/2022 11:35:21 AM EDT
[#7]
The findings from the OP and Hoser ref the factory lacquer being needed or not seem to be two more examples of the "need" being person to person dependent.
The historic reason I'd always heard was that the lacquer was needed for the PS90 mag to function vice the more traditionally designed FiveseveN magazine. Others and here and on other FN, 5.7, and/or PS90 focused forums and threads have had mixed results between brass simply washed in hot water to maintain the lacquer, dry tumbled in corn cob, or wet tumbled with stainless pins when used in the PS90 or FiveseveN. The last two methods will definitely remove the lacquer if done for a long enough time and someone here a few years back tumbled the hell out of a batch of brass and apparently had no issues with the PS90 mag feeding rounds. I like reloading for this round, but the SBR'd PS90 and its unique magazine has it's own little demons, especially when trying to get subs to run and/or if dealing with the increased back pressure from a suppressor. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 12:17:14 PM EDT
[#8]
A few answers to some questions from other posts.
I started with just cleaning the brass with hot water and simple green. This worked just fine and all loads functioned perfectly. I didn't like that the brass wasn't shiny and pretty (Like thr other brass I reload) so I thought I would try a few with the Laquer completely stripped. I initially had good luck. To remove all laquer, I wet tumble with SS pins. It takes time to completely strip the brass. My 55 grain loads don't move the shoulder much at all and the brass comes out so clean it looks like I haven't even shot it. I loaded up 10 each a little lighter and a little hotter than my norm. 4.3 and 4.7 grains of True Blue. I will keep trying. I even told myself to load the first 2 rounds in the mag with coated brass and the rest with polished..haha. Which seems stupid. If the gun wasn't so much fun to shoot, I would just sell it. Sometimes I like to be a problem solver too:) |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 3:23:06 PM EDT
[#9]
I will say that I've noticed this cold gun temperment with SS197 or AE TMJ with both the Ruger 57 and the FSN USG and MK2. If I run those and let the gun either sit for a bit or pull it fresh from the bag, it likes to choke after the first round then is fine after.
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Posted: 8/9/2022 8:22:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will say that I've noticed this cold gun temperment with SS197 or AE TMJ with both the Ruger 57 and the FSN USG and MK2. If I run those and let the gun either sit for a bit or pull it fresh from the bag, it likes to choke after the first round then is fine after. Well, at least I know I am not crazy..haha. So, my original polished brass 55 FMJ load was 4.0 grains of True Blue. It functioned my Ruger 57 last year. Probably didn't play enough to find out the cold gun issue. This spring I added a holosun 507K....because "Holosun all things". Shooting this spring after installing the sight, 4.0 didn't seem to work anymore due to the extra weight. Found others on the interweb really liking 4.5 grains and tested a few. Seemed like it worked well. Loaded more at 4.5 and the rest is why I am here now. So, I tried 4.7 and the first round looked to open the slide about half way...cycled the others in the mag. Later (with cold gun) I tried 4.3 (trying to see if slower helps the cold gun extraction issue) it worked...all 5 rounds ran well. Went about other things in my day, headed back out to the country road ditch and this time 4.3 didn't fricken function the first cold gun round. WTF. I am going to try 10 rounds of everything from 4.0 to 4.8 in .1 grain increments and hit the range. See if any of them are the sweet spot for cold gun, no laquer. Frustrating, but also fun. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 8:54:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, at least I know I am not crazy..haha. So, my original polished brass 55 FMJ load was 4.0 grains of True Blue. It functioned my Ruger 57 last year. Probably didn't play enough to find out the cold gun issue. This spring I added a holosun 507K....because "Holosun all things". Shooting this spring after installing the sight, 4.0 didn't seem to work anymore due to the extra weight. Found others on the interweb really liking 4.5 grains and tested a few. Seemed like it worked well. Loaded more at 4.5 and the rest is why I am here now. So, I tried 4.7 and the first round looked to open the slide about half way...cycled the others in the mag. Later (with cold gun) I tried 4.3 (trying to see if slower helps the cold gun extraction issue) it worked...all 5 rounds ran well. Went about other things in my day, headed back out to the country road ditch and this time 4.3 didn't fricken function the first cold gun round. WTF. I am going to try 10 rounds of everything from 4.0 to 4.8 in .1 grain increments and hit the range. See if any of them are the sweet spot for cold gun, no laquer. Frustrating, but also fun. Is it only the first round of the mag if you have a full 20rd mag? Have you tried loading a single round or downloading the mag to 10 and see if the cold/first round has extraction issues? And just for edification, are you leaving the gun loaded for a period of time, or just showing up, inserting a mag, dropping the slide, and then getting extraction issues? I’m wondering if a full mag, combined with the RDS weight and/or the lacquer being gone, is causing the failure to eject. I really want to get a Ruger or PSA Rock when it’s optic ready. I never should have sold my Gen 1 FiveseveN… ETA: Buffman, same questions for you. Full mag and a gun that’s loaded right then and there, or does it happen with a half full mag or if it’s been carried or sat loaded for a bit of time? |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 8:59:14 PM EDT
[#12]
Is it only the first round of the mag if you have a full 20rd mag? Have you tried loading a single round or downloading the mag to 10 and see if the cold/first round has extraction issues? I have had the problem when loading any number of rounds in the mag. I was loading mags with 4 or 5 rounds today
And just for edification, are you leaving the gun loaded for a period of time, or just showing up, inserting a mag, dropping the slide, and then getting extraction issues? Just showing up, popping the mag in. I’m wondering if a full mag, combined with the RDS weight and/or the lacquer being gone, is causing the failure to eject. Before I had the RDS, it would do it now and then, but didn't really pay as much attention. Now I do. I really want to get a Ruger or PSA Rock when it’s optic ready. I never should have sold my Gen 1 FiveseveN…I have had a gen 2 Fiveseven and now the Ruger. If I didn't have any, I would buy a PSA optic ready now. I do like my Ruger. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 9:50:05 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it only the first round of the mag if you have a full 20rd mag? Have you tried loading a single round or downloading the mag to 10 and see if the cold/first round has extraction issues? And just for edification, are you leaving the gun loaded for a period of time, or just showing up, inserting a mag, dropping the slide, and then getting extraction issues? I'm wondering if a full mag, combined with the RDS weight and/or the lacquer being gone, is causing the failure to eject. I really want to get a Ruger or PSA Rock when it's optic ready. I never should have sold my Gen 1 FiveseveN ETA: Buffman, same questions for you. Full mag and a gun that's loaded right then and there, or does it happen with a half full mag or if it's been carried or sat loaded for a bit of time? |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 9:50:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, at least I know I am not crazy..haha. So, my original polished brass 55 FMJ load was 4.0 grains of True Blue. It functioned my Ruger 57 last year. Probably didn't play enough to find out the cold gun issue. This spring I added a holosun 507K....because "Holosun all things". Shooting this spring after installing the sight, 4.0 didn't seem to work anymore due to the extra weight. Found others on the interweb really liking 4.5 grains and tested a few. Seemed like it worked well. Loaded more at 4.5 and the rest is why I am here now. So, I tried 4.7 and the first round looked to open the slide about half way...cycled the others in the mag. Later (with cold gun) I tried 4.3 (trying to see if slower helps the cold gun extraction issue) it worked...all 5 rounds ran well. Went about other things in my day, headed back out to the country road ditch and this time 4.3 didn't fricken function the first cold gun round. WTF. I am going to try 10 rounds of everything from 4.0 to 4.8 in .1 grain increments and hit the range. See if any of them are the sweet spot for cold gun, no laquer. Frustrating, but also fun. |
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Posted: 8/9/2022 10:02:25 PM EDT
[#15]
I am not. I believe they are all pretty tame. The shoulder barely moves. I know that isn't the only sign of over pressure, etc...
For those wondering....I am going low to high, because my theory is MAYBE the hotter ones (which are still pretty mild) may be moving the slide too fast and pulling the extractor over the rim...and not extracting. This is a hunch based in pretty much nothing, but I want to prove it right or wrong. It may seem like complete BS..but hey, I have lots of polished brass to play with. I will load 2 mags of each load with 3 each. I have never had a cold gun screw up with more than 1 or 2 ,so I figure that will be enough. Will let cool between all mags. Added: I want a 5.7 pistol with a flutted chamber. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 12:34:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am not. I believe they are all pretty tame. The shoulder barely moves. I know that isn't the only sign of over pressure, etc... For those wondering....I am going low to high, because my theory is MAYBE the hotter ones (which are still pretty mild) may be moving the slide too fast and pulling the extractor over the rim...and not extracting. This is a hunch based in pretty much nothing, but I want to prove it right or wrong. It may seem like complete BS..but hey, I have lots of polished brass to play with. I will load 2 mags of each load with 3 each. I have never had a cold gun screw up with more than 1 or 2 ,so I figure that will be enough. Will let cool between all mags. Added: I want a 5.7 pistol with a flutted chamber. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 12:39:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you wanting to load these to subsonic or supersonic? I'm using AA7 at about 3.4gr to get 1050 fps for suppressor use. I'd really suggest you getting a chrono so you know where these loads stand. I've run cheap plinker load 55gr FMJ to about 1,450 in the Ruger, and those are pretty tame. Those were from another company so I can't commment on what powder they are using.. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am not. I believe they are all pretty tame. The shoulder barely moves. I know that isn't the only sign of over pressure, etc... For those wondering....I am going low to high, because my theory is MAYBE the hotter ones (which are still pretty mild) may be moving the slide too fast and pulling the extractor over the rim...and not extracting. This is a hunch based in pretty much nothing, but I want to prove it right or wrong. It may seem like complete BS..but hey, I have lots of polished brass to play with. I will load 2 mags of each load with 3 each. I have never had a cold gun screw up with more than 1 or 2 ,so I figure that will be enough. Will let cool between all mags. Added: I want a 5.7 pistol with a flutted chamber. Not needing them to be subsonic, figuring I would like 1300-1400fps. Fastest I can get without being "hot"....so to speak. I am not too fussy. I just have a LOT of polished cases, 55gr FMJs and True Blue. And it's a fun gun to plink with. I have also loaded 61 grain cast powder coated bullets that I originally had success with at 3.6 grains of TB....that was probably close to sub sonic territory. I plan to retest some of those to see if I have the cold gun troubles. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 7:19:31 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doesn't matter round count :D Quote HistoryQuoted: Doesn't matter round count :D Quoted: Is it only the first round of the mag if you have a full 20rd mag? Have you tried loading a single round or downloading the mag to 10 and see if the cold/first round has extraction issues? I have had the problem when loading any number of rounds in the mag. I was loading mags with 4 or 5 rounds today And just for edification, are you leaving the gun loaded for a period of time, or just showing up, inserting a mag, dropping the slide, and then getting extraction issues? Just showing up, popping the mag in. I’m wondering if a full mag, combined with the RDS weight and/or the lacquer being gone, is causing the failure to eject. Before I had the RDS, it would do it now and then, but didn't really pay as much attention. Now I do. I really want to get a Ruger or PSA Rock when it’s optic ready. I never should have sold my Gen 1 FiveseveN…I have had a gen 2 Fiveseven and now the Ruger. If I didn't have any, I would buy a PSA optic ready now. I do like my Ruger. Quoted: Doesn't matter round count :D Weird. I'm all out of ideas on what's causing the failure to extract on the first couple of rounds then. I'm sure someone smarter than I might be able to diagnose it. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 8:05:19 AM EDT
[#19]
Too bad there isn't a source for less expensive steel cased ammo.
A boutique cartridge that is difficult to reload for isn't great for innovation and following. I think its cool, but so is 221 fireball and 5.7 spitfire but at least you can relaod those. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 9:10:41 AM EDT
[#20]
Something I just noticed in the Rock Thread is that the screws Holosun includes with the 507 might be just a touch too long and press on something in the gun, causing malfunctions.
Maybe measure the screws to see if they're too long? Or just remove the optic and screws and see if the issue presents itself again? I'm waiting for the threaded barrel optics cut Rock to come back in stock and I'll be back in the 5.7 pistol game. You all are enablers 
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Posted: 8/10/2022 10:06:00 AM EDT
[#21]
Is the chamber clean every time or is there some powder residue that could be causing a bit of this?
Thanks for the great thread op. Eta: got the Ruger, waiting on the psa offering to arrive at my lgs. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 11:01:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the chamber clean every time or is there some powder residue that could be causing a bit of this? Thanks for the great thread op. Eta: got the Ruger, waiting on the psa offering to arrive at my lgs. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 11:13:08 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad there isn't a source for less expensive steel cased ammo. A boutique cartridge that is difficult to reload for isn't great for innovation and following. I think its cool, but so is 221 fireball and 5.7 spitfire but at least you can relaod those. They shoot fine when you reload and leave the Laquer in tact. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 11:14:43 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Something I just noticed in the Rock Thread is that the screws Holosun includes with the 507 might be just a touch too long and press on something in the gun, causing malfunctions. Maybe measure the screws to see if they're too long? Or just remove the optic and screws and see if the issue presents itself again? I'm waiting for the threaded barrel optics cut Rock to come back in stock and I'll be back in the 5.7 pistol game. You all are enablers This was checked when I installed the sight and plate. Not too long. Also, it runs fine with factory ammo and reloads with the laquer in place. Thank you. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 11:17:02 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the chamber clean every time or is there some powder residue that could be causing a bit of this? Thanks for the great thread op. Eta: got the Ruger, waiting on the psa offering to arrive at my lgs. In the past when I thought it was only once in a great while, it seemed to work best with a freshly cleaned chamber. In these recent tests, it has either been spotless, or only a few rounds fired previously. This gun has fired very few lacquered cases total. Thank you. |
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Posted: 8/10/2022 12:39:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This was checked when I installed the sight and plate. Not too long. Also, it runs fine with factory ammo and reloads with the laquer in place. Thank you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Something I just noticed in the Rock Thread is that the screws Holosun includes with the 507 might be just a touch too long and press on something in the gun, causing malfunctions. Maybe measure the screws to see if they're too long? Or just remove the optic and screws and see if the issue presents itself again? I'm waiting for the threaded barrel optics cut Rock to come back in stock and I'll be back in the 5.7 pistol game. You all are enablers This was checked when I installed the sight and plate. Not too long. Also, it runs fine with factory ammo and reloads with the laquer in place. Thank you. Thanks for confirming it's not the screws and the gun/handload combo works as intended with the lacquer in place. So odd that it only happens for the first round or two on a cold gun... I'm leaning towards the chamber expanding just a tiny bit once it gets a couple rounds worth of heat since I just can't fathom another cause for the unlacquered rounds failing to eject when fired. |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 1:20:32 PM EDT
[#27]
This almost sounds like a job for Hornady One Shot.
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Posted: 8/12/2022 7:30:47 PM EDT
[#28]
I should be able to hit the range next week. I have a feeling there is no way around my no laquer, cold chamber failure.
It may sound silly, but will probably end up throwing 2 with laquer at the top of the mag moving forward. It's just a fun range gun anyway. Maybe stop picking up my polished brass and keep the laq in tact moving forward. I still have about 500 pieces that haven't been polished. |
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Posted: 8/13/2022 1:47:24 AM EDT
[#29]
Maybe polish the chamber also.
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Posted: 8/17/2022 8:43:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Went to the range today. It's official!
No matter what the load, laquer stripped brass will not run in MY gun with a cold chamber. Load the mag with as many stripped laquer cartridges as you like, add 2 with the laquer in place at the top of the mag and the mag works perfect. Moral of the story for HK_DUDE is....stop stripping the laquer off of the rest of my cases and future cases....shoot up the polished/stripped brass. Still a fun gun and pretty darn accurate. |
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Posted: 8/18/2022 7:24:32 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Went to the range today. It's official! No matter what the load, laquer stripped brass will not run in MY gun with a cold chamber. Load the mag with as many stripped laquer cartridges as you like, as 2 with the laquer in place at the top if the mag and the mag works perfect. Moral of the story for HK_DUDE is....stop stripping the laquer off of the rest of my cases and future cases....shoot up the polished/stripped brass. Still a fun gun and pretty darn accurate. Cool that you got to the bottom of the issue. I’ll be sure to keep water washing my 5.7 brass and leave the lacquer in place. |
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Posted: 8/18/2022 1:09:45 PM EDT
[#32]
So if the lacquer is really crucial to smooth functioning, has anyone figured out how to apply lacquer to “clean” cases?
I can see setting them up on posts/dowels, then spraying them from all sides. A very light coat of any lacquer-like coating should be easy to apply. I just don’t know how well “brand x” lacquer will work compared to the fancy Belgian lacquer. 
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Posted: 8/18/2022 1:23:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if the lacquer is really crucial to smooth functioning, has anyone figured out how to apply lacquer to “clean” cases? I can see setting them up on posts/dowels, then spraying them from all sides. A very light coat of any lacquer-like coating should be easy to apply. I just don’t know how well “brand x” lacquer will work compared to the fancy Belgian lacquer. I may play around a little with that. |
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Posted: 8/20/2022 9:01:15 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 8/20/2022 9:43:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let the games begin! I had black laquer....."what could possibly go wrong?" https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/3591/20220820_195945_jpg-2496792.JPG Haha, I love the persistence in this thread. If it works you have to give us details on what it is and how you applied it. I know Elite Ammunition had their own brass made years ago, but it doesn’t appear to be available anymore based on a quick search of their site. I remember reading about it in the reloading section of the FiveseveN Forum as it had a significantly smaller internal capacity to FN brass. Don’t remember them ever saying what coating they used, but I assume it had to be something to get proper function. |
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Posted: 8/20/2022 10:00:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Haha, I love the persistence in this thread. If it works you have to give us details on what it is and how you applied it. I know Elite Ammunition had their own brass made years ago, but it doesn't appear to be available anymore based on a quick search of their site. I remember reading about it in the reloading section of the FiveseveN Forum as it had a significantly smaller internal capacity to FN brass. Don't remember them ever saying what coating they used, but I assume it had to be something to get proper function. |
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Posted: 8/20/2022 10:47:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were too early to the party and their "improvements" didn't come at any advantage over buying ammo and pulling it down. They lost those machines and another company is now producing brass on those machines to FN spec. They have a coating down, or something that works.. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Haha, I love the persistence in this thread. If it works you have to give us details on what it is and how you applied it. I know Elite Ammunition had their own brass made years ago, but it doesn't appear to be available anymore based on a quick search of their site. I remember reading about it in the reloading section of the FiveseveN Forum as it had a significantly smaller internal capacity to FN brass. Don't remember them ever saying what coating they used, but I assume it had to be something to get proper function. Thanks for the additional information. I’m only over on the FiveseveN Forum once every few months. I saw EA’s rollout posts concerning their brass but didn’t buy any myself nor follow the development or more widespread adoption by other handloaders. |
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Posted: 8/23/2022 12:16:14 PM EDT
[#38]
 Attached FileWell, they worked. The first round in the cold gun was the fully painted brass round. The 2 half painted ones were next. I didn't try the partial painted ones separately in a cold gun, because it is actually more work than a full paint job. I purposely took pics with the worst scratches facing forward. So, it doesn't look like it wil last too long. I may try 2 coats and see. If the brass with 2 coats still falls freely in and out if my cartridge gauge and the barrel chamber...I will try that next. If 2 coats doesn't work, I will look for a better quality paint...or actually put a little work into prepping the cases before painting. All I did on these was wipe the brass quickly with my shirt...haha. Here is what I used. Picked it because I had it in my garage:)  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/9/2022 4:16:10 PM EDT
[#39]
With further testing, this black laquer paint doesn't work real well.
Although the panted round would fired in a cold chamber, it was hit and miss when testing more and more. I switched to Fushion paint..and went with the Orange Popsicle color. Why not...haha. So far, the small amount of testing is better than with the other paint. Please remember, I am not recommending everyone strips all the laquer off and paints their brass...haha. I am just experimenting because I have few thousand that have been stripped.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/9/2022 4:23:10 PM EDT
[#40]
For the OP, I happened across MAC reviewing the new Ruger 5.7 carbine and he was also having issues with the first round failing to eject sometimes.
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Posted: 9/9/2022 4:27:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For the OP, I happened across MAC reviewing the new Ruger 5.7 carbine and he was also having issues with the first round failing to eject sometimes. I bought the new 5.7 carbine this week and it does the same as the pistol. Only with stripped cases and only the first round. Neither have trouble with normal lacquered cases. |
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