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Posted: 8/22/2016 12:46:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2016 9:54:38 AM EDT by lazyengineer]
Continuation from this:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_43/435616_So_I_got_an_AUG__A3_M1_.html which got archived. This thread is to log every usage or modification of the gun, as well as how it ages via tracking the roundcount. As mentioned before, I'm actually just documenting this as my on gun-records, and doing it on line as a good a place as any, and maybe someone will find it useful.

Had chance to take it shooting again this weekend. Fired 120 rounds, with no failures of any kind. Usage ranged from slow fire from the bench, to run and gun. To date, the gun has a 2020 sear in it, with the test spring to lighten weight. And it has a quick-release trigger pack retention pin/sling swivel.

On the pin/swivel, I have mixed emotions. It is tidy to be able to remove the swing, but the quick release button causes the whole thing to stick out another 1/4-1/2 inch, making it mildly cumbersome. I use it, but just take the sling off most of the time, for about the same dimensions as original.

Today I conducted a set of performance tests, to get a better handle on some of the behavior aspects.

Today was to gather some performance and usage data under controlled conditions.

Test method:  An AUG A3M1 18" rifle was used.  It was mounted on sandbags.  Standard reference condition was to fire at 200 yards, with the forward grip folded up, and the rifle supported on sandbags under the trigger guard.  The rifle has a 2020 Sear with the new beta-test spring for reduced trigger weight, and is otherwise stock.  5 rounds would be loaded in a magazine, and a spotting scope would be used to identify progression, where visible.   Little attention was paid to barrel temperature.


Footlocker loaded up for a day at the range.


Rifle on sandbags.  Note the forward grip was up, unless otherwise noted.  



Test ammunition was handloads,  Hornady 55 gr SP, loaded over 25.5 gr of H335 S&B primers and mixed brass.  This charge (and it's 55 gr FMJ cousin loads) was picked to simulate Wolf Gold lower end velocities.


View of the target arrangement at 200 yards through the optics - as captured by a cell phone camera (obviously it looks better in real life).

Results
Targets were recovered and analyzed via OnTarget.  The below table summarize those results.  The primary goal was to determine point of impact shift (vertical offset) based on alternation of some conditions, but group size was also monitored.  It is presented here as Average-To-Center, which is more statistically relevant for data comparison, than extreme spread.  This is the average distance a shot impacts from the center of that group it is part of.

   Vertical    Average       Description
   offset       to Center     of tested
   (MOA)      (MOA)          variable  
   ----------------------------------------------
01) +1           0.62           +2 clicks elevation set on sights from setting used for the day
02) +1.3        0.63           55 gr FMJ bullet; +2 clicks elevation set on sights from setting used for the day

03) -1            0.9             (Reference condition)
04) 0             0.8             (Reference condition repeat)
05) 0             1.1             Gas setting placed to "Distressed"
06) -0.7         1.0             Gas system turned off (Grenade)
07) 0             0.75           Return to reference - pistol grip deployed down, but not touched  
08) 0             1.0             Repeat of previous
09) -0.25       1.8             Pull barrel and cool, reinsert BBL, fire at (reference condition)
10) +3.25       0.75          77 gr match ammunition
11) -0.7          0.5            (Reference Condition)
12) -0.8          0.7            Wolf Gold
13) 0              0.8            Pistol fore-grip manually held

14) -4.8(-1.3" actual) 0.35MOA (Reference) @ 25 yards
15) -12.4(-2.0")   -         (Reference) @ 15 paces (yards estimate)
16) -22 (-2.25")   -         (Reference) @ 10 paces (yards estimate)

Discussion
Error
An indicator of the repeatability of the tests can be seen in tests 1, 3, 4, and 11, which were all at the reference condition.  The repeatability between those 4 on group size wasn't that bad, at extreme spreads of: 1.7, 2.0, 1.8, & 1.4 MOA.  In general the point of impact was withing 1 MOA of each other for the 3 tests that had the same sight settings.  So that's a relative indicator of the margin of error.  

Distance effect on point of impact and sight setting
Tests 11, 14-16 show us point of impact at 10,15,25,&200 yards.  Unfortunately the 50 yard target was not recovered, however from recollection of what it seemed to be doing via the gun optic, the point of impact was essentially zero

Distance   Point of impact
(yards)      (inches)
---------------------------------------
10              -2.25"
15              -2.0"
25               -1.3"
50               ~0
200              averaged (-2")

Based on this result, the correct zero with THIS AMMO is probably to add another click or 2 to the scope.  However, tests 1 and 2 both show that putting two clicks on the scope had a point of impact about 1 MOA (2") high.  The Wolf Ammo test also showed comparable POI (as expected).  There is some lack of clarity on how much movement each click gives.  Prior testing at extended range showed that each click was like 1/2 MOA, not 1 MOA (with each visual reference tick taking 2 clicks to achieve).  Today's results almost appear to indicate each click is giving 1 MOA changes.  This user will probably come up 1 more click, and call it good for a 200 yard general purpose zero with this ammo.

Ammunition affects
4 types of ammunition were tested:  Wolf Gold, 55 gr Soft point handloads, and 55 gr FMJ handloads and 77 gr Open Tip Match (Mk262). Prior tests had shown that this AUG has some velocity sensitivity to point of impact with same-weight bullets; more-so than an AR.  So all of the 55gr loads were spec'd to have similar velocities this time, and as expected, had relatively consistent point of impact.  The 77 gr ammunition is for Service Rifle competition use, and is loaded with 23 gr 8208XBR, which is slightly milder than GI MK262.   Today showed that the heavy 77 gr impacted considerably HIGHER than the ball ammunition.  This is consistent with prior test results, suggesting that the AUG recoil cycle throws heavy bullet high. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=43&t=451151   The 77 gr ammunition grouped well, but not really any better than the 55 SP ammunition did.  I suspect to make this gun really shine, one should look at 69 loads.  (Also, prior tests showed remarkable accuracy with 50 gr ballistic tip ammunition; not tested this day.)

Barrel Removal affects
One of the worst group sizes was fired right after reinsertion of the barrel (Test 09); with two horizontal fliers in each direction really throwing open the group.  However, the zero did not significantly change, for this, or subsequent groups.  It would appear that a shot or two after reinserting the barrel may be needed to setting things, before most consistent performance is achieved.  I had not known this before, but I suppose is not surprising.  This is a conclusion based on one test group, so maybe.

Affect of pistol grip
Test 13 shows the results of manually holding and putting tension on the forward pistol grip.  This does not appear to have much affect, if any.  Results are close to within the margin of error.  Point of Impact is in the high range of what was seen with the reference condition, as was group size, so it does not appear to be much worsening or moving performance.  

Leaving the pistol grip down (but not touched) was also tested (Test 7) doesn't appear to have much affect either.

The gas system settings (tests 05 and 06) do not appear to have much affect.  Point of impact and accuracy results seemed fairly comparable to baseline condition.  This was quite interesting as I have expected the test with the gas system turned off to have a tighter group (no moving parts) and have a different POI (high velocity).  For the most part, neither really happened.  If anything, accuracy was slightly worse, though it was just one group of 5.  The "distressed" setting was expected to also be affected by the opposite behavior of having greater gas pressure in the gas system.  It may have resulted in a slightly elevated POI (maybe), but within the range of POI baseline conditions were showing, so if there is an affect, it is essentially negligible.  

As expected, brass was thrown with more vigor with the distressed gas system, and perhaps the recoil impulse was stronger, but it wasn't a very great difference.  Recoil impulse with the gas system turned off was markedly different.  Firing an AUG is similar to firing an AK, with a somewhat jarring jumping of the gun, suggesting multiple high energy movements of the gun, back and forward.  With the gas system turned off, there was just one recoil impulse, and in some ways, it was milder and more pleasant to shoot, than in semi-auto.  An AUG does have enough of a recoil impulse that you can mildly "scope" yourself if not careful.

Conclusions
For the most part, the AUG usage and performance isn't that affected by the gas setting, how it's held, or if the pistol grip is used or not.  It might be possible that it groups slightly tighter by not touching the forward pistol grip, but this test did not show that with much confidence, if at all.  Removing and reinserting the barrel doesn't materially shift the point of impact, but it might require a couple shots to resettle things, before the gun settles back down (maybe).

Also included are some useful data showing the how high one should aim at 10,15, and 25 yards when firing an AUG with a 200 yard zero.

Total Round Count: 1534. Gun put away without cleaning.


Link Posted: 8/22/2016 7:41:16 AM EDT
Great info.

Three points I'd make:
Since the barrel after removal was allowed to cool, perhaps that is where you are getting the fliers from?
The testing with the vfg down and held, was the gun rested on the bench or bags also? Can you more fully describe the setup? What you note squashes the commonly held idea that the vfg degrades accuracy. I'm really interested in this.
Lastly, do you have another barrel? Since you're doing this maybe looking at poi shifts between barrels would be nice for the future.
Link Posted: 8/30/2016 12:36:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2016 12:43:10 PM EDT by yekcoh]
Great info.

This post should correct misinformed, non scientific folks who think using the grip would some how generate force enough to warp a hammer forged steel barrel that it causes shifts in poi.

So your barrel is sub moa??

Some pics of groupings are appreciated.
Link Posted: 8/30/2016 2:28:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2016 2:32:09 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
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Originally Posted By yekcoh:
Great info.

This post should correct misinformed, non scientific folks who think using the grip would some how generate force enough to warp a hammer forged steel barrel that it causes shifts in poi.

So your barrel is sub moa??

Some pics of groupings are appreciated.
View Quote


heck I used to think it. Until I tested it. I need to do some more tests, and might try to soon, just to confirm it. Because, you know, a half-assed test that confirms your preconcieved notion is hard science, but if it doesn't, hmm... something wrong, need to retest that. (which I'm laughing at myself, because that's what I'm going to do :) )

As to accuracy - no sir, it is no where near a sub-moa BBL. Those reported results are average-to-center MOA, which is the average MOA distance the bullet impact, is from the center of the group. In general, that method is used as it is considered more statistically repeatable, and is used as an ammunition acceptance test criteria, for example. Another nice thing about it, is it's mostly round count independant. A 10 shot group will have the same Avg-to-center result, as a 100 shot group will. But you can be sure the extreme spread of a 100 shot group will be notably bigger than a 10 shot group. I'm doing 5 shot groups, which is a little dicey, as you can still have a lucky 5 shot group. With a lucky group being much less likely in a 10 shot group. But 5 is still much better than 3 shot group, which is just a ridiculous standard, and you absolutely will get some non-representational 3-shot groups. So, back to your question the extreme spread tended to varied from memory, from ~2.2 MOA up to 3.8 MOA in these tests.

In my experience, the AUG can be made to shoot, but it takes a little more effort in load development, than a decent AR does. I've been able to dial in some loads to take the AUG to about 1.5 (ish) MOA extreme spread averaged and repeatable. But that wasn't what I was getting on this test run, because that's not the ammo I brought. Also, bear in mind, these were 200 yard groups. 200 yard groups visually are always very disappointing; it just looks worse than it necessarily is. Until you do the math on it, and then see it ends up shooting just as good as that 50 yard group which visually at first glance seemed to be way better; moreso than just 4 times better. Just how it works. My 25 yard zero group was a cloverleaf. But then, it's 25 yards.

Don't have the image analysis files handy from that trial, but here is one from this weekend with some different trials






Link Posted: 8/30/2016 3:01:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2016 3:01:54 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
8/28/2016 update.

Fired 50 rounds of various loads, doing load development testing, include some 40 gr test loads. Did not find as noteworthy recoil reduction with that, as I might have expected. Accuracy was pretty meh with the 40 gr Speer loads tested - I'll likely try another round of tests. No failures of any kind. A few observations with the chronograph and this 18" BBL:

-Wolf Gold was clocking 3100 FPS
-A 55 gr SP load that was clocking 3090 FPS in a 20" AR BBL, was clocking 2958 fps in this barrel. (132 fps slower)
-A 40 gr SP load that was clocking 3255 FPS in a 20" AR BBL this day, was clocking 3187 FPS in the AUG (68 fps slower)

Total Round count: 1584 rounds





Link Posted: 9/6/2016 12:27:28 AM EDT
9/3/2016 update.

Fired 152 rounds of 55gr soft point various loads at a 3 gun match, including jacking in reloads hot. No failures of any kind. The AUG and it's 3X scope shot well at targets dispersed in trees along a pathway while running. And it shot well open-bay at 5-10 yards for speed. There were 6 gongs scattered along a hillside from 250-500 yards, in a cross wind. 55 SP is not really the ideal bullet for that setting, but it was able to hit all six in the time window, though it did take close to 50 rounds and a good spotter calling impacts to do it. For reference, almost none of the AR's were able to get all 6 gongs, so the AUG did pretty good actually.

Total Round count: 1736 rounds

Link Posted: 9/6/2016 12:41:39 AM EDT
9/4/2016 update.

Fired 72 rounds of various reloads from 40 gr to 68 gr. The AUG function flawlessly, despite some very weak loads, and some abusive loads. One blown primer from a load that was tested at the formulation recommended by the manufacturer on the bottle, and shouldn't have been. And some loads were so mild, that it almost felt like you could feel a delay in the gas system cycling, but it never jammed or hung up.

Total Round count: 1808 rounds
Link Posted: 9/7/2016 1:03:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
9/4/2016 update.

Fired 72 rounds of various reloads from 40 gr to 68 gr. The AUG function flawlessly, despite some very weak loads, and some abusive loads. One blown primer from a load that was tested at the formulation recommended by the manufacturer on the bottle, and shouldn't have been. And some loads were so mild, that it almost felt like you could feel a delay in the gas system cycling, but it never jammed or hung up.

Total Round count: 1808 rounds
View Quote


This delay is something I really felt like I noticed the first time I shot my Aug. I was using cheap factory ammo.

Too hot to shoot outdoors (I was at an indoor range) so have only shot it once so far, will have to see if I still notice it next time or if it was just some psychological artifact of the ergonomics and it being my first time shooting one.
Link Posted: 9/10/2016 4:18:41 PM EDT
9/9/2016 update.

Fired 142 rounds of various reloads from 40 gr to 69 gr. The AUG function flawlessly. per usual. It really likes 69 SMK's with 23.9gr 8208. It did well with 23.5gr ARComp too. I never could make the Hornady 68's sing quite as well for some reason. I'm having a hard time getting the little Speer 40 gr bullets to shoot accurately, but if I put them over 24.0 gr of ARComp, they do pretty good.

I have about 12 lb of WC844 that I can't get to shoot very well with anything. I'm done with WC surplus powder - that stuff is rejects or something. It's works, but blaster powder is all that crap is good for. No more "see H335 load data (means it's pretty much H335, right?)" for me.

Shoots pretty OK with Win 748 pushing 55 gr SP bullets, with 25.0 gr giving a mild 2760 fps. 26.3gr was a slightly better node, but I didn't like the pressures I was getting.

Total Round count: 1950 rounds
Link Posted: 9/12/2016 9:53:42 AM EDT
9/11/2016 update.

Fired 150 rounds of various ammunition. There were two trigger failures - likely due to the experimental trigger spring I'm beta testing, which appears to have caused hammer follow on 2 rounds, preventing proper function. Cleared and kept going. This occured with some extra-light practice reloads, which may not be coincidence. In factory configuration, or with just the 2020 sear, I doubt it would have happened.

Also found that the AUG has zero problem shooting extra short profile 40 gr light reloads.

Also tested a red dot mounted on the side of the scope mount, in conjunction with a home-made shell deflector. It worked pretty good that way, and I find just rotating the AUG 20 degree's with the same cheek weld, works a lot better than mounting the micro RDS sight on top of the scope. Only item there is I might want a better shell deflector.

Total Round count: 2100 rounds
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 8:07:07 PM EDT
9/27/2016 update.

Fired 200 rounds. There were several trigger failures, mostly towards the end. Again, this is likely due to the experimental trigger spring I'm beta testing. On a couple I was able to reset the trigger by just manually pushing it forward. Cleared and kept going. Will remove the experimental 2020 sear spring, and reinstall the factory trigger spring - while keeping the 2020 sear.

Total Round count: 2300 rounds
Link Posted: 9/28/2016 11:56:22 PM EDT
9/27/2016. Fired 94 rounds at a carbine match. No failures of any kind

Total round count: 2394
Link Posted: 9/30/2016 4:21:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
9/27/2016. Fired 94 rounds at a carbine match. No failures of any kind

Total round count: 2394
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Were you usining the factory trigger pack or the experimental one?
Link Posted: 9/30/2016 11:59:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By burkeva:


Were you usining the factory trigger pack or the experimental one?
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Originally Posted By burkeva:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
9/27/2016. Fired 94 rounds at a carbine match. No failures of any kind

Total round count: 2394


Were you usining the factory trigger pack or the experimental one?


Factory Springs, 2020 sear. (just the sear, not the 2020 experimental spring). I'm done with the spring, and don't foresee ever reinstalling it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2016 8:42:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:


Factory Springs, 2020 sear. (just the sear, not the 2020 experimental spring). I'm done with the spring, and don't foresee ever reinstalling it.
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Originally Posted By burkeva:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
9/27/2016. Fired 94 rounds at a carbine match. No failures of any kind

Total round count: 2394


Were you usining the factory trigger pack or the experimental one?


Factory Springs, 2020 sear. (just the sear, not the 2020 experimental spring). I'm done with the spring, and don't foresee ever reinstalling it.


Good call. As much as I want to improve the trigger pull on mine, I'm not willing to risk the reliability offered by the factory trigger pack. The only possible exception is the pack that's in the works by Gisselle.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 10:53:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2016 10:53:43 AM EDT by lazyengineer]
11/14/2016. Fired 85 rounds at a carbine match. No failures of any kind. Gun put away without cleaning.

Total round count: 2479
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 8:53:27 PM EDT
How are you conducting magazine changes? Are you hitting the magazine release with the full magazine and then inserting it once the empty magazine releases, or are you using your hand to hit the release? Also are you using the factory magazines or PMAGS?
Link Posted: 11/15/2016 11:20:00 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By burkeva:
How are you conducting magazine changes? Are you hitting the magazine release with the full magazine and then inserting it once the empty magazine releases, or are you using your hand to hit the release? Also are you using the factory magazines or PMAGS?
View Quote


All my mags are Austrian factory mags. I'll get some PMags when they price drop, as there are things I like about them, but the factory mags work great. I use 30's or 42's, depending - with good results with both. I just use my hand when changing mags, it doesn't take long, and for me is just more reliable than using a full mag to hit it. The spring is pretty strong on the magazine release, it has to be pushed all the way flush, it's easy for something to slip and the magazine bump technique fails, taking even longer than if you just used your hand. I just use my hand, because it works first time 100% of the time. The few times I do a mag change, I'll try to do it while on the move, dropping out a partial - so the extra 1/3 second doesn't matter.

To be honest, it's pretty rare to even have to do a mag change. 30 rounds is a lot of ammo, and 42 is a lot more. If I think it's going to be a high round count run, I'll just run the 42, but usually the 30 is plenty.

One thing I've started trying of late, is just point shooting the closer targets. I don't run any game-gear. All my stuff is general purpose configured, and I use it in action sports to make me better at using my gear - vs gear specifically to make me better at action sports. To that end, my AUG has the fixed 3X optics, which I consider the better general purpose optic (for me, as my intended usage goes out to 300 yards in field conditions, and glassing targets at distance for ID). 3X is a detriment in most 3-gun settings, where targets are just 5 yards away sometimes, and can be packed tight too. So lately I've been playing with just looking over the gun and point shooting - with some decent results. I finished in the top 25% of the last 3-gun match I shot. Not stellar, but I'm good with that. Guys who have gear problems, are the ones trying to do something special, or who have non-standard configurations. I run most of my stuff stock.
Link Posted: 11/15/2016 1:56:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2016 2:56:37 PM EDT by burkeva]
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:


All my mags are Austrian factory mags. I'll get some PMags when they price drop, as there are things I like about them, but the factory mags work great. I use 30's or 42's, depending - with good results with both. I just use my hand when changing mags, it doesn't take long, and for me is just more reliable than using a full mag to hit it. The spring is pretty strong on the magazine release, it has to be pushed all the way flush, it's easy for something to slip and the magazine bump technique fails, taking even longer than if you just used your hand. I just use my hand, because it works first time 100% of the time. The few times I do a mag change, I'll try to do it while on the move, dropping out a partial - so the extra 1/3 second doesn't matter.

To be honest, it's pretty rare to even have to do a mag change. 30 rounds is a lot of ammo, and 42 is a lot more. If I think it's going to be a high round count run, I'll just run the 42, but usually the 30 is plenty.

One thing I've started trying of late, is just point shooting the closer targets. I don't run any game-gear. All my stuff is general purpose configured, and I use it in action sports to make me better at using my gear - vs gear specifically to make me better at action sports. To that end, my AUG has the fixed 3X optics, which I consider the better general purpose optic (for me, as my intended usage goes out to 300 yards in field conditions, and glassing targets at distance for ID). 3X is a detriment in most 3-gun settings, where targets are just 5 yards away sometimes, and can be packed tight too. So lately I've been playing with just looking over the gun and point shooting - with some decent results. I finished in the top 25% of the last 3-gun match I shot. Not stellar, but I'm good with that. Guys who have gear problems, are the ones trying to do something special, or who have non-standard configurations. I run most of my stuff stock.
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Originally Posted By burkeva:
How are you conducting magazine changes? Are you hitting the magazine release with the full magazine and then inserting it once the empty magazine releases, or are you using your hand to hit the release? Also are you using the factory magazines or PMAGS?


All my mags are Austrian factory mags. I'll get some PMags when they price drop, as there are things I like about them, but the factory mags work great. I use 30's or 42's, depending - with good results with both. I just use my hand when changing mags, it doesn't take long, and for me is just more reliable than using a full mag to hit it. The spring is pretty strong on the magazine release, it has to be pushed all the way flush, it's easy for something to slip and the magazine bump technique fails, taking even longer than if you just used your hand. I just use my hand, because it works first time 100% of the time. The few times I do a mag change, I'll try to do it while on the move, dropping out a partial - so the extra 1/3 second doesn't matter.

To be honest, it's pretty rare to even have to do a mag change. 30 rounds is a lot of ammo, and 42 is a lot more. If I think it's going to be a high round count run, I'll just run the 42, but usually the 30 is plenty.

One thing I've started trying of late, is just point shooting the closer targets. I don't run any game-gear. All my stuff is general purpose configured, and I use it in action sports to make me better at using my gear - vs gear specifically to make me better at action sports. To that end, my AUG has the fixed 3X optics, which I consider the better general purpose optic (for me, as my intended usage goes out to 300 yards in field conditions, and glassing targets at distance for ID). 3X is a detriment in most 3-gun settings, where targets are just 5 yards away sometimes, and can be packed tight too. So lately I've been playing with just looking over the gun and point shooting - with some decent results. I finished in the top 25% of the last 3-gun match I shot. Not stellar, but I'm good with that. Guys who have gear problems, are the ones trying to do something special, or who have non-standard configurations. I run most of my stuff stock.


Thanks. I've been practicing with both using my hand and with using the new magazine to hit the release.i havnt settled on which one I like best. I definitly need to spend a day just doing reps to get used to which I like best and then to stick with it.

I'm with you on PMAGS. I have 50+ of the factory magazines 20 of the 42 and the remaining are 30s (I got some good deals and then before I knew it, I had a ton of them!). I bought 8 PMAGs with the intent of making them training magazines. I painted them tan to differentiate them from my AR magazines but thus far I havnt tried them out. I'm off all next week so I'll finally get a chance to test them. So far my AUG has been 100% reliable with factory magazines and xm193, m855 , 70 grain TSX and 50 rounds of Winchester ranger Leo soft point. I've got some other rounds that I'll also try. My round count is only 700 but it's an incredible platform that I need to shoot more. Thanks for your updates.
Link Posted: 1/26/2017 3:36:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2017 3:45:41 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
01/26/2017. Fired 81 rounds at a carbine match. One hard jam - due to an operations issue; see text.

I was one of the first on the stage, and didn't get a very good stage briefing, so discovered (as I was shouldering to get ready), that we have to start shooting off the left shoulder at some of the targets.

Well that's not welcome, I hadn't practiced left hand in forever. Worse, while I do have a velcro set up for a shell deflector, the shell deflector is back at the bag. And worse still, I'm using very weak trash reloads. Strong loads tend to get thrown forward, where weak reloads tend to get throw back, which is where my face will now be.

Went ahead and fired the string, with hot brass flying into my face and bouncing off my lips. Split both upper and lower lip doing this - it was a discomfort at the application but not all that distracting. The real annoyance is the lip still mildly hurts the next day. One of those casings bounced off Lazy's face and back into the ejection chamber, and caused a bad jam. I ended up having to pull the barrel (while on the clock) to clear it. I still finished out the stage, but that was a real learning experience. If going to be serious with the AUG, practicing short-notice left shoulder fire is a bit of a must.

I will say the 3X fixed scope and lack of a muzzle break isn't doing me a lot of favors for the indoor style carbine matches, where everything is just 20 yards. I did OK, but will rarely crowd the top 25% in the 20 yard IDPA style stages with this rig. I might reexamine putting a red-dot back on top... It does faire much better in USPSA style stages, and in general application (non-IDPA) stages, were targets are at variable distances including well over 100 yards, or when the close targets can be point shot (i.e. the whole target counts - so point shooting is fine, or they don't have silly rules like maximum round counts, etc.).

Total round count: 2560
Link Posted: 1/29/2017 1:08:40 PM EDT
Great thread, Lazy!!!!  Very enjoying to read!!!!
Link Posted: 1/29/2017 1:28:42 PM EDT
when shooting off the left shoulder you can do something like this




What I prefer though is to fully grasp the stock behind the ejection port with the right hand and rest my cheek on top of my hand.  The outside blade of the hand will act as a case defector and there is less chance of a case bouncing back into the action than with the example above
Link Posted: 1/29/2017 3:37:28 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
when shooting off the left shoulder you can do something like this

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BXZx0zzXcmM/maxresdefault.jpg


What I prefer though is to fully grasp the stock behind the ejection port with the right hand and rest my cheek on top of my hand.  The outside blade of the hand will act as a case defector and there is less chance of a case bouncing back into the action than with the example above
View Quote


That's exactly how I do it.
Link Posted: 1/30/2017 9:54:55 PM EDT
Next range session I'm going to practice that technique.
Link Posted: 2/5/2017 8:21:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2017 8:22:39 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
02/5/2017. Fired 146 rounds at a carbine match. No failures.

Fired the AUG at a 3-gun match this weekend. It handled well, with no jams or issues. My shooting itself could have been better, but I did OK. Trying to hit a 500 yard gong with 40 gr trash ammo, because that's all I have left, wasn't doing me a lot of favors. On prone from sandbags, I kind of Like the AUG more than the AR's. Because you just fold up the foregrip, put in a 30, rest the pistol grip on the bag, left hand on the front of the trigger guard, and you can solid-hold that gun, and pivot on a dime. AR guys have their mag in the way, and they just have a more cumbersome system, than the Bullpup.

Measured the headspace, as the AUG always seemed a bit sloppy, when I'm checking reload fit. And sure enough, it is pretty sloppy. Using a 11 piece headspace gage set (in 0.001" increments from GO (SAAMI minimum to Field (SAAMI MAX)), I was able to get it to close on a 1.4686" gage, but not the 1.4696" gage. Which technically means it fails civilian .223 No-Go, but passes military 5.56 GO. Since it is technically Marked .223, I might give Steyr a call. I'm not having problems with it too bad, but do get an occasional broken shell on a tired reload casing, that has repeatedly been sized for a tighter chamber, that all my other guns have. At this round count, they might tell me to get bent, but who knows.

Total round count: 2706
Link Posted: 2/5/2017 9:43:13 PM EDT
The AUG has a 5.56 chamber
Link Posted: 2/5/2017 10:05:26 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
The AUG has a 5.56 chamber
View Quote

Yeah. I really don't know why they continue marking the barrel and receiver .223, when the gun is clearly chambered in 5.56.

Link Posted: 2/5/2017 10:17:00 PM EDT
My barrel is marked 5,56 and .223
Link Posted: 2/6/2017 12:20:27 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
My barrel is marked 5,56 and .223
View Quote


Yep. Mark it as .223, then it better pass a .223 NO GO gage.
Link Posted: 2/9/2017 3:09:54 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
when shooting off the left shoulder you can do something like this

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BXZx0zzXcmM/maxresdefault.jpg


What I prefer though is to fully grasp the stock behind the ejection port with the right hand and rest my cheek on top of my hand.  The outside blade of the hand will act as a case defector and there is less chance of a case bouncing back into the action than with the example above
View Quote


Thank you! Was wondering how to do this for a class coming up.
Link Posted: 2/10/2017 4:01:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2017 4:02:38 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
02/5/2017. Fired 50 rounds of bench rest shooting today nat 200 yards, in a clean AUG. No failures.

Accuracy performance was only kind of meh. I won't say my bench technique is the worlds best, and I suspect that the relatively heavy recoil of the AUG suffers for it. But in any event:

- Reference spec: Hornady 55 SP with 25.5 gr H335. A load intended to mimic Wolf Gold. 5 shot 2.1 MOA. Eh... ok. Point of impact was pretty close to point of aim.

- light match: Sierra 53 gr MatchKing, 26.5 gr W748. 2.36 MOA

- light match 2: SMK 53, 27.0 gr Win 748. 1.64 MOA (better!)

- Hornady 68 match: 68 HPBT, 24.2 gr SRB118 powder. 4.11 MOA (Good God - and it shoots like this every time. SRB is surplus match powder from GI .308 match ammo).

- Sierra 69 match: 69 SMK, 22.8 gr AR Comp. 2.4 MOA (milder recoil)

-Sierra 69 match: 69 SMK, 23.3 gr AR Comp. 3.4 MOA (heavier recoil)


So... yea, this could have gone better, but OK I guess. the reference load is about a 2 MOA load, which is OK. The 68 Hornady is junk in this gun. The 69 SMK I was expecting better, as that's a top-shelf bullet with top-shelf powder. That's an expensive 2.5-3.5MOA load.

The light match loads with Win 748 were OK, the best one getting me closer to the 1.5 MOA I was expecting out of the gun.

Bear in mind these were 5 shot groups (though some were done in replicates, of similar result), and like I said, I'm not so sure my bench technique is the worlds best. My biggest surprising was I have yet to see shine with 68 or 69 gr bullets. The Hornady 68's are such a disappointment, shooting on par with an AK with Wolf.

But, with standard baseline ammo, this is a ~ 2 MOA gun, and sometimes around 1.5 MOA with the right tuned ammo, which is consistent with prior data.

On another note, I called Steyr USA. Cool dudes actually, but they did mention that they dont' even have .223 gages. If I wanted, I could send the AUG back and they could try to find an out of spec bolt that maybe is tighter, if I want a tighter chamber, but I'll probably have to pay for it. I probably won't, it's a 5.56 gun, and runs fine on all commercial ammo, and usually on the reloads - but it will be harder on my brass than other guns if I'm planning to reload the brass a bunch. Since I have access to mountains of .223 brass (3-gunners always just leave it), I only run a couple firings and dump anyway, so no big deal.

Total round count: 2756
Link Posted: 2/10/2017 4:53:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2017 4:57:14 PM EDT by mcantu]
I really enjoy your posts Lazy.

Question though...why not have a good factory load as the reference?  This could help note if it's something with your reloads that's affecting groups (runout, etc).  Something like the ADI/Australian Outback 69gr SMK or Federal 69gr FGGM

I know I've posted this a million times:

ADI 69gr SMK
10 rounds, 1.5X optic, but only at 100yds


Link Posted: 2/10/2017 5:47:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2017 7:58:28 PM EDT by maleante]
Did you mention that the .223 on the receiver/barrel could be removed?
Link Posted: 2/19/2017 2:08:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2017 2:30:56 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
02/17/2017. Fired 80 rounds of bench testing. No failures.

More group testing to check out some new equipment. Below shows the doppler radar track of 15 shots, indicating not only muzzle velocity, but velocity out to 100 yards as measured by the radar.

(SRB 118 is .308 match surplus powder; which people speak well of. Got an 8lb jug in an estate sale, and am not that impressed with it.)

Checked how well gun held POI in 4 different groups, each involving breaking position, and then resuming position and firing. POI moved some - about 1 MOA centers from one group to another, which is acceptable for such a rifle.

simple 5 shot groups. Statistically not exactly definitive.

53 SMK (26.5 gr Win 748): 2.5MOA (0.8 Mean Radius) 2960 fps +/- 17 fps
53 SMK (27.0 gr Win 748): 3.2 MOA (1 MR) 2997 fps +/- 56 fps
55 SP (27.1 gr SRB118): 2.5MOA (1 MOA MR) 3038 fps +/- 36 stnd dev (rather warm load; approaches Wolf Gold velocity in AUG)
68 H = junk
69 SMK (22.8 gr ARComp): 1.3 MOA (0.4 MR) 2684 fps +/- 6
69 SMK (23.3 gr ARComp): 3.2 MOA (1 MR) 2747 fps +/- 15
73 Berger (23.3 gr 8208XBR): 1.5 MOA (0.5 MR) 2676 fps +/- 15

The 53 gr match was anticipated to outperform the Hornady 55 gr SP, but it didn't. Maybe the powder. The 69 SMK and the 73 Bergers did rather well.

Total round count: 2786
Link Posted: 2/27/2017 12:34:56 PM EDT
02/27/2017. Cleaned the barrel. No rounds fired.

Ordered a cheap $12 red dot LASER for test-of-concept purposes - intend to receiver mount it.
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 1:05:37 AM EDT
Correct me if I'm wrong but you shot 2,706 rounds before cleaning?
I admit I didn't read the archived thread.

Thanks Lazy for a great thread.
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 12:18:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2017 2:37:20 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xdmikey:
Correct me if I'm wrong but you shot 2,706 rounds before cleaning?
I admit I didn't read the archived thread.

Thanks Lazy for a great thread.
View Quote


Naw, I tend to clean it every several hundred rounds or so. I try to mention when I do, but sometimes it slips. One interesting thing about the AUG is
1) Cleaning really is optional. The only part that actually fouls is the short-stroke section mounted to the barrel. And even it doesn't really care - I've never heard of an AUG jamming from fouling.
2) But if one does decide to clean, then you can do a quicky-clean, incredibly quick. Pop the barrel, run a bore snake down the barrel a couple times, Rotate the gas system cap and pull out the cap, short-stroke piston, and spring. Solvent helps and I usually will rotate the spring through a piece of cloth to wipe off the carbon build-up. Sometimes I'll solvent the thick part of the piston, as that coats up pretty good (Don't scrape, as I think it's chrome plated). Maybe push a piece of cloth into the gas cylinder and pull out. Wipe down and add drop or two of oil to the rings and body (I prefer grease), reassemble. Literally a 3 minute operation. 5 if you're trying to make it super clean (optional, gun doesn't care). This is what I usually do when I clean.
3) A full cleaning isn't much harder, since there's pretty much nothing to clean in the rest of the parts, so you just reapply some lube, wipe down a couple things that maybe got a little fouling on them, and you're done. This takes you up to 5 minutes of effort (if you pull the firing pin)
4) If you are really serious, you can work the barrel more thoroughly with solvents and a rod and a brush. This takes as long as any other barrel, and most of the time is just soak time for the solvent to act.

The AUG is by far the easiest semi-auto I own to maintain. Heck, it's easier to maintain than an AK. Actually.. by quite a bit. But, I generally just don't like the thought of a dirty gun after about 500 rounds, and usually clean it regardless by then.
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 1:01:03 PM EDT
I'll throw in my .02 on cleaning. I rarely clean my AUG's. I have no set intervals or schedules to cleaning for them.

There is one exception and that'd be the 9mm guns, blowback fouls things up pretty good, not as bad like the Colt subguns, but fouled enough that I clean and oil after every use. Never had a fouling stoppage in the 9mm the way the Colt will, but weak ammo will cause other malfunctions with the 9mm AUG which is virtually unseen in their 5.56 counterpart. 9mm AUG needs hot ammo and a good bath after each use.
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 2:38:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2017 2:38:59 PM EDT by lazyengineer]
And since you guys love photos. I present to you, the Nakatomi Plaza fun-pack:

Link Posted: 3/3/2017 5:20:17 PM EDT
This thread is awesome, and I've recently developed an AUG obsession and am now in the market trying to find one to buy.
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 8:15:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
And since you guys love photos. I present to you, the Nakatomi Plaza fun-pack:

http://i67.tinypic.com/16i7bj6.jpg
View Quote
That's just SWEEEET!
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 8:16:40 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
And since you guys love photos. I present to you, the Nakatomi Plaza fun-pack:

http://i67.tinypic.com/16i7bj6.jpg
View Quote


18" barrel? I have one but haven't taken it out yet.

Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 3/3/2017 8:29:24 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By topper:
This thread is awesome, and I've recently developed an AUG obsession and am now in the market trying to find one to buy.
View Quote


@topper

Act fast. I'd call Pete were I looking to have an AUG delivered within that timeframe.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_43/474988_Steyr-Rebates.html
Link Posted: 3/6/2017 4:33:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By maleante:


@topper

Act fast. I'd call Pete were I looking to have an AUG delivered within that timeframe.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_43/474988_Steyr-Rebates.html
View Quote



Okay that rebate was all the extra incentive I needed, thanks for the heads up! ...

calling Pete... :)
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 8:05:05 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
when shooting off the left shoulder you can do something like this

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BXZx0zzXcmM/maxresdefault.jpg


What I prefer though is to fully grasp the stock behind the ejection port with the right hand and rest my cheek on top of my hand.  The outside blade of the hand will act as a case defector and there is less chance of a case bouncing back into the action than with the example above
View Quote


mcantu, is that an MSAR? The barrel fluting and FA is making me think so.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 10:37:17 AM EDT
03/10/2017 update. Had to pick up the AUG to move it out of the way while working on some maintenance item of another rifle at home. Thought to self: "Damn this AUG is a very cool gun". no rounds fired. That is all.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 1:20:17 PM EDT
3/13/2017 update (no rounds fired). Installed a cheap red-dot laser

$12 off of Amazon. Kind of love it.





Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:01:25 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
3/13/2017 update (no rounds fired). Installed a cheap red-dot laser

$12 off of Amazon. Kind of love it.

http://i67.tinypic.com/25eutcx.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/2ezo9w8.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/346xlli.jpg
View Quote


I am going to be picking an A3M1 up soon. I am debating if I should get the flat top, so I can mount a red dot site. Or If I should get the integrated 1.5 scope. How easy is it to swap them out if I change my mind? Is there any reason to pick the integrated scope over the flat top?
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:11:12 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By akajimmy:


I am going to be picking an A3M1 up soon. I am debating if I should get the flat top, so I can mount a red dot site. Or If I should get the integrated 1.5 scope. How easy is it to swap them out if I change my mind? Is there any reason to pick the integrated scope over the flat top?
View Quote


Lots of schools of thought on that. My decision was personal, as I grew up with the mystic' of of the unobtainable AUG with the classic profile, and that's what I always wanted. So when the M1 with integrated optic because available, that's what I got. From a usage standpoint, 3X is the more general. 1.5X is better for the <25 yard engagements, but a little less effective for field distance target identification and precision. A flat-top and variable scope would allow you to have the best of both worlds, so a lot of people like that.

It looks to me though that putting a laser on a 3X one, allows both excellent CQB abilities (better even than a red-dot, in some ways), while still allowing servicable distance shooting. I regularly shoot mine out to 500+ yards at open-field 3-gun competition, and 3X optics is plenty good for that. 1.5X maybe not.

If I had to do it over again, I'd do exactly this again: 18" BBL with 3X integrated scope, and a laser on the side-mount.

I personally like the fixed 3X optics because it's a compact scope that's more securely mounted than any system which will involving adding rings with screws that hold them to the scope, and more screws that hold that to the mount. All is just more stuff that can go wrong, and adds weight/bulk.

Decisions aren't perminant, but changing your mind is fairly expensive. It's Steyr, so none of this stuff is cheap. That's really my biggest dissapointment with the quick-change barrel system. It SOUNDS really cool. But each barrel costs as much as a complete M4. So.. you basically end up not doing it. (still handy for cleaning and such).
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:55:23 PM EDT
I'll add a bit onto what Lazy wrote about the barrel being quick change. That the barrel can be removed and replaced with a different length barrel is not a feature that 99% of users would utilize. Typically I see the removable barrel described as a quick change barrel system (myself being guilty of this as well) but it's not so much the quick "change" rather than the speed and precision of removing and reinstalling the barrel for whatever purpose you want.

The ability to quickly remove the barrel is a nice benefit to transport, storage, and cleaning. AUG's are clean firing guns, but when you want or need to clean it, having the barrel as a standalone item cuts down on the time spent cleaning to a couple minute job. Removing the barrel for transport or storage is handy in that the gun is now extremely compact for a rifle, you could have it in a normal sized nondescript backpack or bag and no one would have any idea of its contents.

Removing the optic housing or rail and swapping them is an easy process. Just need the right tool for the job. Three bolts and you're done.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:


Lots of schools of thought on that. My decision was personal, as I grew up with the mystic' of of the unobtainable AUG with the classic profile, and that's what I always wanted. So when the M1 with integrated optic because available, that's what I got. From a usage standpoint, 3X is the more general. 1.5X is better for the <25 yard engagements, but a little less effective for field distance target identification and precision. A flat-top and variable scope would allow you to have the best of both worlds, so a lot of people like that.

It looks to me though that putting a laser on a 3X one, allows both excellent CQB abilities (better even than a red-dot, in some ways), while still allowing servicable distance shooting. I regularly shoot mine out to 500+ yards at open-field 3-gun competition, and 3X optics is plenty good for that. 1.5X maybe not.

If I had to do it over again, I'd do exactly this again: 18" BBL with 3X integrated scope, and a laser on the side-mount.

I personally like the fixed 3X optics because it's a compact scope that's more securely mounted than any system which will involving adding rings with screws that hold them to the scope, and more screws that hold that to the mount. All is just more stuff that can go wrong, and adds weight/bulk.

Decisions aren't perminant, but changing your mind is fairly expensive. It's Steyr, so none of this stuff is cheap. That's really my biggest dissapointment with the quick-change barrel system. It SOUNDS really cool. But each barrel costs as much as a complete M4. So.. you basically end up not doing it. (still handy for cleaning and such).
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Originally Posted By akajimmy:


I am going to be picking an A3M1 up soon. I am debating if I should get the flat top, so I can mount a red dot site. Or If I should get the integrated 1.5 scope. How easy is it to swap them out if I change my mind? Is there any reason to pick the integrated scope over the flat top?


Lots of schools of thought on that. My decision was personal, as I grew up with the mystic' of of the unobtainable AUG with the classic profile, and that's what I always wanted. So when the M1 with integrated optic because available, that's what I got. From a usage standpoint, 3X is the more general. 1.5X is better for the <25 yard engagements, but a little less effective for field distance target identification and precision. A flat-top and variable scope would allow you to have the best of both worlds, so a lot of people like that.

It looks to me though that putting a laser on a 3X one, allows both excellent CQB abilities (better even than a red-dot, in some ways), while still allowing servicable distance shooting. I regularly shoot mine out to 500+ yards at open-field 3-gun competition, and 3X optics is plenty good for that. 1.5X maybe not.

If I had to do it over again, I'd do exactly this again: 18" BBL with 3X integrated scope, and a laser on the side-mount.

I personally like the fixed 3X optics because it's a compact scope that's more securely mounted than any system which will involving adding rings with screws that hold them to the scope, and more screws that hold that to the mount. All is just more stuff that can go wrong, and adds weight/bulk.

Decisions aren't perminant, but changing your mind is fairly expensive. It's Steyr, so none of this stuff is cheap. That's really my biggest dissapointment with the quick-change barrel system. It SOUNDS really cool. But each barrel costs as much as a complete M4. So.. you basically end up not doing it. (still handy for cleaning and such).
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 1:50:32 PM EDT
Steyr was recently selling AUG barrels for $400.  That's not a lot when you taken into account the $100 of gas system parts that are included
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