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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 11/21/2020 8:43:40 PM EST
I am just getting into night vision. I have been using a Flir PTS233 thermal weapon sight for the past two years, but finally decided to get a helmet setup.

I am now running a pvs14 on a bump helmet.

I was advised to get an IR laser and separate Illuminator, instead of a combo like a DBAL-D2, etc.

What say you? What are the pros and cons of a combo vs. stand alone units?
Link Posted: 11/21/2020 9:05:08 PM EST
Bad advice in most every situation IMO. The only advantage in two units instead of a combo unit is price.
Link Posted: 11/21/2020 10:57:53 PM EST
You were told wrong. Very wrong.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 8:19:42 AM EST
I really can't think of any benefit to separate units, unless maybe cost.  I'm rather doubtful it would be cheaper anyway, but I've never priced it out.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 10:09:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
I really can't think of any benefit to separate units, unless maybe cost.  I'm rather doubtful it would be cheaper anyway, but I've never priced it out.
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OTAL and arisaka 250 is probably hundreds cheaper than a D2
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 10:17:20 AM EST
I like inline lasers and I like different illuminators. I know I'm the minority, but it's what I like. Now, if I had a MAWL, that might change.

I like being able to change out my illuminator based on conditions or target distance. However, its usually the same laser/illuminator combo 90% of the time.

But the switching part is what sucks. If only UT would release a constant on dual lead hot button, I can be happy.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 10:28:25 AM EST
Only if you buy the wrong dual units.  If you have the $, get the MAWL.  Best available.  As a great second choice, the DBAL D2 is awesome as well.  Buy once, cry once and never look back.

www.TNVC.com Vic and the crew will take care of you.  I hear they may have a sale coming up.  Maybe on D2?
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 11:01:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DirtyHandsRob:
I like inline lasers and I like different illuminators. I know I'm the minority, but it's what I like. Now, if I had a MAWL, that might change.

I like being able to change out my illuminator based on conditions or target distance. However, its usually the same laser/illuminator combo 90% of the time.

But the switching part is what sucks. If only UT would release a constant on dual lead hot button, I can be happy.
View Quote

Yup, I'm in the same boat. I'm running an Arisaka 600 E2HT (white light) and a Holosun LS117IR with plans to pair it with an Arisaka EX IR on a TAPS SYNC.

Should net me loads of performance for hundreds less and saves me the hassle of ITAR (it is bulkier though).
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 11:33:04 AM EST
I have been told that lasers and illuminaters are only good against non-NV threats, which makes sense.

Have a passive optic like a red dot or thermal that you can passively engage with, in addition to the laser and illuminater and you can always have more than 1 illuminater if you get a laser with an illuminater.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 11:38:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By jwise:
I am just getting into night vision. I have been using a Flir PTS233 thermal weapon sight for the past two years, but finally decided to get a helmet setup.

I am now running a pvs14 on a bump helmet.

I was advised to get an IR laser and separate Illuminator, instead of a combo like a DBAL-D2, etc.

What say you? What are the pros and cons of a combo vs. stand alone units?
View Quote


That is not good advice from a functionality perspective. If you’re just plinking it’s fine IMO. For optimal performance you want to press one button for simultaneous laser & illuminator activation/deactivation.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 11:51:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By will-1:
That is not good advice from a functionality perspective. If you’re just plinking it’s fine IMO. For optimal performance you want to press one button for simultaneous laser & illuminator activation/deactivation.
View Quote

To be fair, this could be achieved with the right switch setup, i.e. a TAPS SYNC
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 11:53:56 AM EST
I run a couple of OTALs and separate illuminators. At far distances the IR laser will not be centered and could be far off to one side. If you're looking for a illuminator that is adjustable the Luna is a great option.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 12:27:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By CDN_Datawraith:

To be fair, this could be achieved with the right switch setup, i.e. a TAPS SYNC
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Originally Posted By CDN_Datawraith:
Originally Posted By will-1:
That is not good advice from a functionality perspective. If you’re just plinking it’s fine IMO. For optimal performance you want to press one button for simultaneous laser & illuminator activation/deactivation.

To be fair, this could be achieved with the right switch setup, i.e. a TAPS SYNC


True, but then you can't use a double switch one for IR the other for white light.

A night rifle should probably have a white light option in case you need it.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 12:35:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Mach:


True, but then you can't use a double switch one for IR the other for white light.

A night rifle should probably have a white light option in case you need it.
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Depends. You could easily use a dual lead hotbutton for laser + IR illum and another or a modbutton for white light.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 1:01:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Mach:


True, but then you can't use a double switch one for IR the other for white light.

A night rifle should probably have a white light option in case you need it.
View Quote


+1

You beat me to it, lol.

CDN_Datawraith, you’re right, separate units vs combined preference is a subjective thing because there are ways to make it work.

However, budget permitting, most users find a combined unit with a good illuminator and powerful white light in addition to be a superior set up. 1 less battery to deal with, more rail space, more streamlined, and usually lighter weight.

From what I’ve seen, most guys who start out with separate IR units eventually will get a combined IR unit, so it makes better sense to just go that direction from the start if you can.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 7:07:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/22/2020 7:22:01 PM EST by 0331OC]
It is rather subjective and dependent on the intended use or endstate. If you're attempting to conserve weight and rail space, a Vis/IR laser module and separate Vis/IR light such as the M600V, is going to be lighter than an ATPIAL/DBAL or MAWL C1 with a standalone white light, generally by 3-10 ounces depending on aiming module and light.
Apart from the MAWL C1, there are negligible differences between the M600V and most IR illuminators in civilian class modules. If you have access to a FP aiming module, then yes it makes more sense to have a combined IR laser/illuminator module and separate white light or a PEQ-16. However, with a PEQ-16 or other units that have a white light, you then get into the potential risk of selecting the incorrect function because of the 1 switch for multiple functions HI/LO for Vis Laser, IR Laser, IR Illum, Vis Illum, and the combinations for VIS or IR. It's not really an issue, but something to consider.

ETA: The PEQ-16 is quite intuitive, offering VIS: Aim, Light, and Dual; IR: Aim Low, Dual Low, Aim Hi, Dual Hi.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 7:33:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/22/2020 7:38:08 PM EST by Apec]
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:


Depends. You could easily use a dual lead hotbutton for laser + IR illum and another or a modbutton for white light.
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:
Originally Posted By Mach:


True, but then you can't use a double switch one for IR the other for white light.

A night rifle should probably have a white light option in case you need it.


Depends. You could easily use a dual lead hotbutton for laser + IR illum and another or a modbutton for white light.


Are dual lead Hotbuttons even in the wild yet?

I have never see one for sale and the TAPS sync is the only device that offers that functionality.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 7:50:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 0331OC:
It is rather subjective and dependent on the intended use or endstate. If you're attempting to conserve weight and rail space, a Vis/IR laser module and separate Vis/IR light such as the M600V, is going to be lighter than an ATPIAL/DBAL or MAWL C1 with a standalone white light, generally by 3-10 ounces depending on aiming module and light.
Apart from the MAWL C1, there are negligible differences between the M600V and most IR illuminators in civilian class modules. If you have access to a FP aiming module, then yes it makes more sense to have a combined IR laser/illuminator module and separate white light or a PEQ-16. However, with a PEQ-16 or other units that have a white light, you then get into the potential risk of selecting the incorrect function because of the 1 switch for multiple functions HI/LO for Vis Laser, IR Laser, IR Illum, Vis Illum, and the combinations for VIS or IR. It's not really an issue, but something to consider.

ETA: The PEQ-16 is quite intuitive, offering VIS: Aim, Light, and Dual; IR: Aim Low, Dual Low, Aim Hi, Dual Hi.
View Quote


I need a white light with some balls - like the mod lite PLH v2 or cloud defensive light REIN - not a nutless wonder like the peq16 or even DBAL a4.  As such, if you can’t do a full powered IR illum, the MAWL or DBAL D2 are top of the class.  The V surefire lights are ok for close range but quite anemic at distance.  If your mission is purely close range, ok fine, but if you need white light, you need overwhelming light IME.
Link Posted: 11/22/2020 10:22:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TDunn:


I need a white light with some balls - like the mod lite PLH v2 or cloud defensive light REIN - not a nutless wonder like the peq16 or even DBAL a4.  As such, if you can’t do a full powered IR illum, the MAWL or DBAL D2 are top of the class.  The V surefire lights are ok for close range but quite anemic at distance.  If your mission is purely close range, ok fine, but if you need white light, you need overwhelming light IME.
View Quote


+1

I have the D2 and PLHv2 on my primary gun and you’d be hard pressed to need more IR illum or white light.

The PLHv2 is a phenomenal light.
Link Posted: 11/23/2020 4:23:17 PM EST
My rifle has a M300V and Otal-C.

I have the pressure pad right next to the clicky cap, which has worked well.

My main reason for this was cost. I wanted IR laser and light, along with white light, and couldn't drop $1k plus at the time.

I'm happy with what I have, but will eventually upgrade to an IR light/laser combo, and probably trade the 300v for a white light only unit.
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 1:26:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 11:04:20 PM EST
After looking at everything, the dbal-d2 would have been a good option, but instead I am getting a Surefire 640V and Steiner CQBL-1.

I am already afraid I should have gone with the DBAL-D2. Oh well. This is just the first of several rifles.
Link Posted: 11/25/2020 7:45:18 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Mach:
I have been told that lasers and illuminaters are only good against non-NV threats, which makes sense.

Have a passive optic like a red dot or thermal that you can passively engage with, in addition to the laser and illuminater and you can always have more than 1 illuminater if you get a laser with an illuminater.
View Quote


Agreed. My targets all have NVG as well so i generally avoid using IR lasers for targeting.

Passive thermal scope for targeting is the way to go. Its also much better than the PVS14 for target detection, since enemies are camouflaged and generally under cover. The thermal makes it impossible to hide. For this reason, I find myself just stowing the PVS14 and using the thermal exclusively when threats are around.
I would like to keep my PVS14 on, but the thermal certainly takes precedence for me.

I do have an IR laser, but would only use it as a backup if my thermal runs out of battery or i know my target doesnt have NVG
Link Posted: 11/25/2020 8:13:03 AM EST
It's not ideal but it's 1/3 the cost of the mawl. Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 11/25/2020 3:05:14 PM EST
Well I talked to my shop and they were able to switch my order from the CQBL to the DBAL-D2! I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this! The CQBL-1 + Surefire 640V would be a lighter package than the DBAL-D2 + white light, but the illumination I will get out of the DBAL-D2 will be worth it (hopefully!)

Link Posted: 11/25/2020 3:07:03 PM EST
You have chosen, wisely.
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