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Posted: 9/10/2019 11:53:15 AM EDT
[#1]
MAWL is king as far as functionality and performance goes.. but it's not cheap..
Because of this disturbing situation, I run a DBAL I2 with a SF vampire light. |
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Posted: 9/10/2019 2:42:37 PM EDT
[#2]
I switched to the Perst lasers. Take a look at them.
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Posted: 9/10/2019 2:42:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Yeah I think the price of the MAWL is going to prevent me from that.
I guess that leaves the DBAL's and Eotech ATPIAL |
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Posted: 9/10/2019 2:52:17 PM EDT
[#4]
I’d add the D2 to your list. It’s bulkier and heavier but the illuminator is second only to the MAWL from what I understand. I don’t have a MAWL but I have a D2. Ive never needed more light.
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Posted: 9/10/2019 6:27:53 PM EDT
[#5]
If you want something that is actually useful at 25 yards and in as well as PDW / CQB then yes the answer may seem expensive with MAWL. That would be MAWL PERIOD!
With anything else especially the ATIPAL-C your going to need another source for IR light like it or not. Your going to have that cost plus the nightmare of trying to figure out how to activate the laser and light with some pressure pad solution and honestly there isn't a good one currently. The best and cleanest solution is a MAWL with a great white light from either Surefire or Modlite. The Cloud Defense light is another great option but not really laser compatible. |
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Posted: 9/10/2019 7:37:05 PM EDT
[#6]
I have a mawl, it is amazing full stop.
That said, Perst 3 is not a bad choice. 
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Posted: 9/11/2019 5:47:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Looks like the MAWL is everyone’s recommendation.
I do not need the laser or illuminator for long range. I have my Trijicon Reap-IR for that. This is going on a pistol caliber carbine. I highly doubt I will shoot past 50 yards with that gun. My rifle has the Thermal. |
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Posted: 9/11/2019 6:07:19 PM EDT
[#8]
What makes MAWL so much better than DBAL A3 ?
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Posted: 9/11/2019 6:43:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What makes MAWL so much better than DBAL A3 ? That said, for what the OP requires there’s really no need for a MAWL. 50 yards of illumination can be accomplished by just about anything out there. There aren’t many all-in-one options out there save for the DBAL A4, Perst-2, or PEQ-16 (if you have legit access to one). Even then, the PEQ-16 white light sucks balls. In your price range, I’d get the A3 over the ATPIAL-C with a SF M300V or V1 with a dual button tape switch. That’s what I ran for a long time (actually an M720V, but that was a waste). It works exceptionally well. I also ran an EOTech EOLAD with the M720V RAID as well and that was a very respectable solution, IF you don’t demand a visible laser (and let’s be honest, who needs a visible laser?). |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 3:31:36 AM EDT
[#10]
The only civy LAMs that will get you out to 200 yards and beyond is the MAWL C1+, D2, and A4. The A3, APTIAL C, i2 9007 will not fail @ 75 yards in an urban area. A powerful illuminator is not only useful at long distances but also allow you to use in mixed lighting such as being able to illuminate under a car across a white light lit street etc.
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Posted: 9/12/2019 7:01:23 AM EDT
[#11]
Look at the Perst-3 plus secondary light, Perst-2 all-in-one, or DBAL-A4 all-on-one then.
No civilian illuminator that is a class-1 laser except the MAWL C1+ will meet your 200 yard requirement. The DBAL-D2, since you mention use as a PDW, has a large visible signature that makes it unsuitable for this role. The DBAL-A4 has a useful flood option that makes it good for use as a PDW and a long range setting that makes it good for several hundred yards. It uses a very low observable LED, unlike the DBAL-D2 which is a bright and visible LED. The Perst laser based illuminators are too powerful and focused for PDW use, but you can put the diffuser cap on them and they light up a room really well. Whatever you do, don't get the ATPIAL-C. It's the worst of the bunch that you listed. |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 8:41:17 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm still kicking ideas around, but would something along these lines like this work?
Holosun LS221G (IR/Vis Laser Only) Modlite IR head/whatever body/surefire pressure pad tailcap (for Illum) TAPS? Modified Y-cable? Maybe a dual lead Unity Hot Button? White light of choice I'm thinking that this would let me: Hit the button on the Holosun unit to get my IR laser on demand. Hit the Hot Button to fire both the IR laser and Modlite IR simultaneously. Hit the other tape switch to get white light. edit: I'm reading that the LS221 may not work w/ surefire/taps pressure pads, so may have to adapt that plan to an otal-c or the like. |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 9:47:30 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’d add the D2 to your list. It’s bulkier and heavier but the illuminator is second only to the MAWL from what I understand. I don’t have a MAWL but I have a D2. Ive never needed more light. DBAL D2 has a crap ton of throw. |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 10:56:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at the Perst-3 plus secondary light, Perst-2 all-in-one, or DBAL-A4 all-on-one then. No civilian illuminator that is a class-1 laser except the MAWL C1+ will meet your 200 yard requirement. The DBAL-D2, since you mention use as a PDW, has a large visible signature that makes it unsuitable for this role. The DBAL-A4 has a useful flood option that makes it good for use as a PDW and a long range setting that makes it good for several hundred yards. It uses a very low observable LED, unlike the DBAL-D2 which is a bright and visible LED. The Perst laser based illuminators are too powerful and focused for PDW use, but you can put the diffuser cap on them and they light up a room really well. Whatever you do, don't get the ATPIAL-C. It's the worst of the bunch that you listed. Or do you mean it has a signal that is “relatively large” when compared to the laser based illuminators? 3* off axis (which is, IIRC what TNVC always quoted) isn’t really very large. |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 1:28:44 PM EDT
[#15]
I had heard that there is a glow from the D2 and that is what he is referring to. Which is ok for hunting but if used for PDW it could give away your location.
How true is that? |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 1:50:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had heard that there is a glow from the D2 and that is what he is referring to. Which is ok for hunting but if used for PDW it could give away your location. How true is that? |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 2:15:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like the MAWL is everyone’s recommendation. I do not need the laser or illuminator for long range. I have my Trijicon Reap-IR for that. This is going on a pistol caliber carbine. I highly doubt I will shoot past 50 yards with that gun. My rifle has the Thermal. The issue is the illuminator - depending on the lighting conditions and target, the DBAL A3/I2 illuminators can crap out about 80 yards. A Surefire Vampire under the same conditions will reach maybe 40% farther. That's as much reach as you're going to get unless you look at something like the Perst-3, MAWL, or DBAL D2, or add in a TNVC Torch or similar. |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 2:35:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Other options include SF x400v and streamlight vir2. White light, IR light and IR laser all in one compact package.
The SF seems to have a tighter beam with more throw and the vir2 has more spill. But the vir2 houses the laser inside, so it sits lower and won't get in the way of an option on the top rail like a x400 would.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 2:38:45 PM EDT
[#19]
OP, for 50yards and in, honestly, just snag a used DBAL i2. The D2 is overkill however the widest setting is useful even that close. Get the i2 IR/IR (pointer/illuminator). Add a white light with dual pad and Bob’s your uncle. They pop up used sub $700.
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Posted: 9/12/2019 2:46:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Anyone have experience with the DBAL- RL? It looks like a good SBR or pistol option in a small package but I have not seen any reviews
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Posted: 9/12/2019 3:42:32 PM EDT
[#21]
perst 3 noobs
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Posted: 9/12/2019 6:36:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
perst 3 noobs |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 7:14:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What kind of support does the Perst have? I assume it is imported from Russia. |
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Posted: 9/12/2019 10:02:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s the problem. If a dealer here would swap out a warranty issue then it could be worthwhile. You can’t send it back to Russia because you’d violate ITAR and you definitely don’t want that I’ve perused ITAR and I don’t recall reading this restriction? |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 12:46:10 AM EDT
[#25]
I ended up talking to Steiner and TVNC on the phone. After talking to them, I went with the DBAL-RL. It looks to fit my needs better. Small package that includes IR, IR Illuminator, Vis Laser and White light. It is a rifle adapted version of the pistol PL with programmable external switch ability. Designed for CQB. The IR Illuminator is actually stronger than the A3.
https://www.steiner-optics.com/laser-devices/dbal-rl |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 9:11:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? It’s not manufactured here. I’ve perused ITAR and I don’t recall reading this restriction? I wouldn’t want to risk it and find out. With current events as they are, I would have to think that a US Citizen receiving/shipping lasers from Russia could be a problem. |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 10:02:31 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I ended up talking to Steiner and TVNC on the phone. After talking to them, I went with the DBAL-RL. It looks to fit my needs better. Small package that includes IR, IR Illuminator, Vis Laser and White light. It is a rifle adapted version of the pistol PL with programmable external switch ability. Designed for CQB. The IR Illuminator is actually stronger than the A3. https://www.steiner-optics.com/laser-devices/dbal-rl |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 10:56:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do more research or call some experienced dealers. This came up in another thread I don't remember which one. It doesn't matter where it's made, once it enters the USA it becomes an ITAR item which means no export out of the USA without the proper permission from State. I wouldn't want to risk it and find out. With current events as they are, I would have to think that a US Citizen receiving/shipping lasers from Russia could be a problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Why? It's not manufactured here. I've perused ITAR and I don't recall reading this restriction? I wouldn't want to risk it and find out. With current events as they are, I would have to think that a US Citizen receiving/shipping lasers from Russia could be a problem. |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 12:24:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I can find talks about restricting re-export of foreign-made items that contain a certain level of US-origin material or tech. If these lasers don't have any US tech and aren't manufactured in the US, I don't see how there would be any standing to restrict them. A clear answer on this would be great for everyone but let’s hope someone doesn’t “bump stock” these by contacting State with a bunch of questions, lol. |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 1:29:39 PM EDT
[#30]
I'm impressed with the DBAL A4
In my informal testing it was really close the MAWL on IR. The white light is effective and I liked the performance outdoors. It's a tad on the heavy side but by the time you do other lasers, IR and white lights I think the A4 isn't too heavy With the pressure pad you can have one switch for white light + visible laser and the other for IR illum and laser. I like that quite a bit actually Others have mentioned Perst lasers and I feel like the Perst 2 is the best of the bunch. So far I haven't seen the MAWL do anything that Perst 2 can't do except look sexier and be lighter. Perst 2 has white light, an insanely bright IR illum and a full power laser (which I don't actually recommend for safety reasons, but it's there if you want it). Cheaper than the MAWL and the green visible laser can be seen at 50m even in the bright Texas summer days...that's impressive to me Downside is potential warranty issues which is a turn off for some people, but my very first Perst 2 had a firmware issue and I was sent a replacement from Ivan Tactical before I sent my defective unit back to the them. Turn around time was about 3 weeks start to finish and they took care of my warranty no questions asked. There are a number of Russian companies like Ivan Tactical that sell to Russian mil and LEO and they don't fuck around. You will be taken care of if there are issues and they totally get the modern customer service world and do things pretty close to how we do it over here I have a Perst 2 and a Perst 4 and am happy with both. I've always been a little looser on the risk side when it comes to Russian stuff and after all these years I still haven't been burned yet, FWIW DBAL A4 
MAWL A4 Perst 2 A3  Perst 4 Laser only Perst 2  A4 and A3 
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Posted: 9/13/2019 2:35:15 PM EDT
[#31]
MAWL or PERST
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Posted: 9/13/2019 2:56:16 PM EDT
[#32]
@TX-Zen
We know you use your stuff and have lots of experience ???? Out of those which one would you keep if you could only have one? |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 3:07:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@TX-Zen We know you use your stuff and have lots of experience Out of those which one would you keep if you could only have one? MAWL is the safe choice all things considered (and this is what I'd recommend overall, mostly based on performance vs risk) but I'd probably pick Perst 2 for myself, based on my experience. Performance is amazing and the feature set is really cool. Adjustable brightness for the laser and illuminator, diffuser for indoor IR work, excellent throw on the white light, strobe option on the laser and illuminator, and the pressure pad with brightness rheostat is really useful Time will tell how durable the Perst is but it hits all the right functions and hits them with authority Z |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 3:21:06 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a tough one actually MAWL is the safe choice all things considered (and this is what I'd recommend overall, mostly based on performance vs risk) but I'd probably pick Perst 2 for myself, based on my experience. Performance is amazing and the feature set is really cool. Adjustable brightness for the laser and illuminator, diffuser for indoor IR work, excellent throw on the white light, strobe option on the laser and illuminator, and the pressure pad with brightness rheostat is really useful Time will tell how durable the Perst is but it hits all the right functions and hits them with authority Z |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 3:34:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Just remember it's all about risk
Anytime I buy from Russia I am prepared to lose that money. It's just the nature of the game dealing with cold war surplus optics and militaria stuff and I got used to it a long time ago. Like I said have had really really good luck over the past 15 years even counting times when I literally just threw money into the wind and hoped for the best. I've gotten about 99% of what I've paid for, but there have been a couple instances where I landed some cool optics and they died shortly after I got them. I lost that money for sure...so there is always a risk with Russia That said I believe very strongly in this new breed of companies like Ivan Tactical and Survival Corps, for example. There are a number of shops like them who deal with military and LEO and they are very serious about doing it right. Question is you don't really know where they will be in a year, or two or whatever and that's also a level of risk. For me that is a very low one but for folks not as experienced in dealing with Russia it should be pointed out The safest bet is definitely buying US from a reputable company, no question. The most interesting bet (for me) is buying lasers like Perst to see what they can do So yes, Perst 2 has really impressed the hell out of me. But don't take that to mean buying Russian is risk free |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 3:57:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Like I mentioned in another post, times have changed since we got the FIRST question, where is it made. Now it don't mean much at all, but we used to get murdered talking anything made in China or Russia. Now it's all about cheap. SHRUG...
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Posted: 9/13/2019 6:22:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like I mentioned in another post, times have changed since we got the FIRST question, where is it made. Now it don't mean much at all, but we used to get murdered talking anything made in China or Russia. Now it's all about cheap. SHRUG... |
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Posted: 9/13/2019 7:38:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are Perst lasers cheap, or inexpensive? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Like I mentioned in another post, times have changed since we got the FIRST question, where is it made. Now it don't mean much at all, but we used to get murdered talking anything made in China or Russia. Now it's all about cheap. SHRUG... 
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Posted: 9/13/2019 11:27:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Made in Russia and even the instructions are in Russian. As stated years ago we got hung and called out for selling 2nd line gear like that even though we designed it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Like I mentioned in another post, times have changed since we got the FIRST question, where is it made. Now it don't mean much at all, but we used to get murdered talking anything made in China or Russia. Now it's all about cheap. SHRUG... |
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Posted: 9/14/2019 12:09:26 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obviously, they're made in Russia. And, instructions are now in English. Users that have needed warranty service have reported good service. What is "2nd line gear"? In what regard do the Perst units not stack up? |
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Posted: 9/14/2019 12:46:09 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like the MAWL is everyone’s recommendation. I do not need the laser or illuminator for long range. I have my Trijicon Reap-IR for that. This is going on a pistol caliber carbine. I highly doubt I will shoot past 50 yards with that gun. My rifle has the Thermal. |
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Posted: 9/14/2019 7:17:12 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC what TNVC Vic is saying they designed a IR illuminator and had an overseas company produce it to TNVC's specs, but some people shunned it due to not being made in America even though it was a great product. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Obviously, they're made in Russia. And, instructions are now in English. Users that have needed warranty service have reported good service. What is "2nd line gear"? In what regard do the Perst units not stack up? |
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Posted: 9/14/2019 9:08:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not concerned with that. I'm asking about the Perst units. The ZenitCo rail systems for the AK are the best made in my experience, bar none. I don't care for their PT1 or PT3 stocks but they are bomb proof and do things that regular stocks can't - ugly but super functional. Their Klesh lights are a little clunky in my opinion, but well made and get the job done. All the ZenitCo gear I own or have handled has been top notch...high quality, smooth machining, excellent fit and finish So far I don't see any reason why Perst will not be as good as anything else ZenitCo has done, but like I said, time will tell. Who knows if they will take a crap in a month or a year or whatever. That's still an unknown factor because there aren't many in the States yet and not a lot of data out there I'm ok with being one of the guinea pigs because I like the feature set and am willing to see what they can do and how long they last, but that's only based on my excellent experiences with other gear of theirs |
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Posted: 9/14/2019 10:45:39 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Made in Russia and even the instructions are in Russian. As stated years ago we got hung and called out for selling 2nd line gear like that even though we designed it. I, personally, am strictly concerned with performance, and would purchase products developed by TNVC regardless of where they were manufactured, if they suited my needs. Have in the past, and will again. |
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Posted: 9/14/2019 11:29:39 AM EDT
[#45]
One comment I will make is even if you are only shooting 50 yards a good illuminator is still a neccessary tool for scanning, locating, identifying. I am not sure of your use or if this is a auxiliary, loaner, ect. When we go hunting I never engage beyond 150 yards with IR lasers yet having a good 1000 yard illuminator is pretty nice.
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Posted: 9/14/2019 3:42:10 PM EDT
[#46]
I use a Surefire Vampire for 0-100m and a full power i2 for 100m out. I’ve yet to get my hands on a MAWL but I’ve heard nothing but good things about it.
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Posted: 9/15/2019 4:31:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Help me with my build. I am looking to add an IR laser/ illuminator and light combo to my SBR. Mostly used hunting under 25-200 yards and as a PDW. There are lots of combinations. DBAL-RL - has everything I need in a small package. Is it reliable and robust enough? What is the range like DBAL A3 + Secondary Light - Same question as above, but have to add a secondary light and more bulky. DBAL A4 - Every thing I need, but is it reliable and better than the other options? Eotech APTIAL-C + Secondary Light - I am leaning this direction, but is the added bulk of a secondary light worth the bulk Eotech PEQ16 - All the bells and whistles but $$$$$ MAWL + Secondary Light- Similar to APTIAL or DBAL A3 but $$$$ What am I missing? What is your choice. What are you missing? Too many to list. ELIR 3, PERST 2/3, Surefire Scout/Vampire, SPIR, DBAL D2, InForce IR lights, Modlite 850IR/950IR, etc. Your only powerful and commonly available options for laser based illuminators are PERST, MAWL, and ELIR3 (filter removed). LED IR illuminator options are much better availability if you have no need for over 200y. Any civilian IR laser is plenty of power. Pretty much none of the white light options outside of Modlite are very good at 200y. 100y is rather easy for white LED lights. |
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