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Posted: 1/13/2021 8:40:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Verify that your engraver is purging the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) w/ inert gas. There should be no oxygen present, while Titanium is being engraved, welded, etc.
If you have any doubts, doing the end cap is a safe alternative. |
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Posted: 1/16/2021 6:30:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Verify that your engraver is purging the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) w/ inert gas. There should be no oxygen present, while Titanium is being engraved, welded, etc. If you have any doubts, doing the end cap is a safe alternative. I sent a note to the engraver I work with. He noted purging the HAZ area with inert gas is a requirement when using a YAG laser. Apparently those generate a lot of heat. He noted the laser he uses does not generate that kind of heat and you pick up the tube immediately after engraving with your bare hands. He also noted he's been engraving tubes for the last 10 years and never had anyone come back with an issue. |
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Posted: 1/16/2021 11:37:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He noted the laser he uses does not generate that kind of heat and you pick up the tube immediately after engraving with your bare hands. He also noted he's been engraving tubes for the last 10 years and never had anyone come back with an issue. I would never have a Ti tube laser engraved without an inert atmosphere, I don't care what kind of laser it is. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 12:21:44 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: I would never have a Ti tube laser engraved without an inert atmosphere, I don't care what kind of laser it is. Can you explain why it is important? I know nothing about that stuff. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:48:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you explain why it is important? I know nothing about that stuff. Because titanium heated to >1,000°F in open atmosphere will hydrogen embrittle. The HAZ may be small with laser engraving, but it's there. You're literally vaporizing material with a laser beam that quickly heats the material to over 6,000°F. What's in the immediate vicinity will be embrittled. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 7:06:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because titanium heated to >1,000°F in open atmosphere will hydrogen embrittle. The HAZ may be small with laser engraving, but it's there. You're literally vaporizing material with a laser beam that quickly heats the material to over 6,000°F. What's in the immediate vicinity will be embrittled. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can you explain why it is important? I know nothing about that stuff. Because titanium heated to >1,000°F in open atmosphere will hydrogen embrittle. The HAZ may be small with laser engraving, but it's there. You're literally vaporizing material with a laser beam that quickly heats the material to over 6,000°F. What's in the immediate vicinity will be embrittled. So then it fractures where it was engraved? |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 8:30:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So then it fractures where it was engraved? It can. We've seen enough of them to know it's an issue. Crux is the poster child for Ti engraving causing tube failures. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 10:56:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Building first form 1 can and I seem remember seeing at least one or two threads regarding titanium tube failures due to laser engraving. Is it safe to have the tube engraved or don't even go there and engrave the mount or end cap? Thanks Lots of MFGs laser engrave Ti. Find someone who knows how to do it. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 10:22:47 PM EDT
[#9]
If you can find an engraver that will warranty their work (pay for another efile and any other damages), then go ahead.
If not, get the adapter engraved. Let’s just say I know a guy... Tubes rupturing is most definitely a thing. |
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Posted: 2/9/2021 10:29:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Is there a list of engravers out there that do it the “right way”? I have a handful of F1’s I should be seeing approvals for shortly.
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Posted: 2/14/2021 7:35:31 PM EDT
[#11]
I've seen it happen on a tube that was over-built by industry standards. I would personally do mechanical engraving unless the engraver was 100% confident and guaranteed the results.
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Posted: 4/14/2021 8:01:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Wish I had found this thread a week ago. I just got mine back from tar heel, since they've been recommended here. Does anyone know if it should be ok?
https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/ It looks good and the shipping was fast. |
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Posted: 4/14/2021 10:25:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wish I had found this thread a week ago. I just got mine back from tar heel, since they've been recommended here. Does anyone know if it should be ok? https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/ It looks good and the shipping was fast. I can tell you that unless their entire shop/garage is full of inert gas, they’re engraving in normal atmosphere. I’ve had them engrave probably 100 or so things for me (including stuff for church), and he’s my local FFL. They’ve done all 10 of my F1 cans, including several that are Ti...but I’ve never had a tube engraved. I’ve never heard of anybody reporting a tube they engraved cracking. I get texts from Teri every couple weeks about something or another, and it’s a topic that has never come up as an issue. |
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Posted: 4/17/2021 7:20:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can tell you that unless their entire shop/garage is full of inert gas, they’re engraving in normal atmosphere. I’ve had them engrave probably 100 or so things for me (including stuff for church), and he’s my local FFL. They’ve done all 10 of my F1 cans, including several that are Ti...but I’ve never had a tube engraved. I’ve never heard of anybody reporting a tube they engraved cracking. I get texts from Teri every couple weeks about something or another, and it’s a topic that has never come up as an issue. Didn't realize you could even engrave the cap, thought it had to be the tube. So on the off chance I do crack it, can I take it to someone that repairs suppressors? |
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Posted: 4/18/2021 1:08:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't realize you could even engrave the cap, thought it had to be the tube. So on the off chance I do crack it, can I take it to someone that repairs suppressors? Entire tube can’t be replaced, even if the engraving was elsewhere. It can be shortened and rethreaded, or repaired (if physically possible). |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 4:45:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wish I had found this thread a week ago. I just got mine back from tar heel, since they've been recommended here. Does anyone know if it should be ok? https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/ It looks good and the shipping was fast. Tarheel apparently uses 15-20 light passes to get the depth, a lot of people have used them for this. There have been problems with other engravers. I've used ncengravers also, probably the only two shops I would trust with the tubes. |
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Posted: 4/21/2021 4:52:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tarheel apparently uses 15-20 light passes to get the depth, a lot of people have used them for this. There have been problems with other engravers. I've used ncengravers also, probably the only two shops I would trust with the tubes. Good to know. It's also a grade 9 tube if it makes a difference. |
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Posted: 4/22/2021 8:21:45 AM EDT
[#18]
This isn’t a Ti tube, and obviously a lot more engraving than just maker’s info...but if you wanted an example of their actual laser at work....here’s the 2nd Amendment being engraved on a 40oz tumbler:
 2nd Amendment Here it is after 4 years of use.  
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Posted: 4/22/2021 9:20:15 AM EDT
[#19]
I build industrial marking lasers of various types. YAG, fibra, CO2 etc. I wouldn't trust anyone to do it.
In my shop I would use hi quality dot peen stamper for a Ti can far over the laser. |
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Posted: 4/22/2021 9:25:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This isn't a Ti tube, and obviously a lot more engraving than just maker's info...but if you wanted an example of their actual laser at work....here's the 2nd Amendment being engraved on a 40oz tumbler:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqqkHFAhPTMHere it is after 4 years of use. https://i.imgur.com/n6JKvNZ.jpg |
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Posted: 4/22/2021 10:50:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the depth of that mark? From the video it looks to be an annealed mark not engraved? Would that meat NFA requirements? I don’t have a way to measure the depth of that engraving. But the legal minimum is .003”, which is roughly the thickness of a sheet of printer paper. Most engraving is WAY deeper than required. I posted that video just as an example of the laser...multiple passes instead of one single deep engraving like a mechanical engraver usually does. |
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Posted: 4/22/2021 11:02:32 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't have a way to measure the depth of that engraving. But the legal minimum is .003", which is roughly the thickness of a sheet of printer paper. Most engraving is WAY deeper than required. I posted that video just as an example of the laser...multiple passes instead of one single deep engraving like a mechanical engraver usually does. eta: my $50k lasers aren't going to engrave at any speed let alone at the speed in video. Gunna need to up your budget to get into an industrial machine capable of engraving hard metals. |
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Posted: 4/22/2021 1:30:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most lasers, especially when going at the speed in your video do not have the power to engrave. They anneal. The surface of the material is changed to give you a quality looking mark but you don't have any actual depth to it. eta: my $50k lasers aren't going to engrave at any speed let alone at the speed in video. Gunna need to up your budget to get into an industrial machine capable of engraving hard metals. Tarheel State Firearms is also local to me and I've dropped off parts to have engraved by Teri. I don't have a reliable way to measure depth but can absolutely say that there is actual depth to the engraving in titanium, polymer, aluminum, and steel and that it's at least 0.003" or more (looking at the engraving and at my calipers to try to eyeball what the depth looks like in comparison) |
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Posted: 4/22/2021 2:48:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most lasers, especially when going at the speed in your video do not have the power to engrave. They anneal. The surface of the material is changed to give you a quality looking mark but you don't have any actual depth to it. eta: my $50k lasers aren't going to engrave at any speed let alone at the speed in video. Gunna need to up your budget to get into an industrial machine capable of engraving hard metals. That laser was in the $30K range. It’s plenty enough to do everything asked of it. Thousands of satisfied customers across the country have had THSF engrave their stuff. But I’m not sure, nor do I care, what your point is, so I’m done with this one. 
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Posted: 4/22/2021 3:25:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That laser was in the $30K range. It's plenty enough to do everything asked of it. Thousands of satisfied customers across the country have had THSF engrave their stuff. But I'm not sure, nor do I care, what your point is, so I'm done with this one. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 8:47:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because titanium heated to >1,000°F in open atmosphere will hydrogen embrittle. The HAZ may be small with laser engraving, but it's there. You're literally vaporizing material with a laser beam that quickly heats the material to over 6,000°F. What's in the immediate vicinity will be embrittled. More like oxygen contamination. You get an oxygen enriched surface layer, alpha case, which does not have good ductility. Alpha case is not allowed on Ti flat products like sheet, tubing, or plate. The alpha case must be removed either by abrasives, machining, or pickling/chem milling. Not enough time for H2 embrittlement in air, with a small pinpoint area. If a block of Ti is in a furnace at say 1950F for beta work, and is left in there too long (depends on how thick it is) you get alpha case plus some hydrogen pickup. Sitting in an acid bath can also pick up Hydrogen as youre removing the protective oxide layer, and the pickle reaction generates metal ions and H2 |
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Posted: 5/20/2021 2:21:25 PM EDT
[#27]
So with all this being said:
Where should I send a Ti tube for proper engraving (laser or mechanical)? I have a project that requires a To tube and mount/end cap so I don't have any alternative materials or locations for laser engraving. |
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Posted: 5/21/2021 9:15:52 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So with all this being said: Where should I send a Ti tube for proper engraving (laser or mechanical)? I have a project that requires a To tube and mount/end cap so I don't have any alternative materials or locations for laser engraving. I’d have THSF engrave the mount if at all possible. |
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Posted: 7/12/2021 10:14:15 AM EDT
[#29]
So does anyone have an engraver to recommend that uses an inert atmosphere for titanium?
Or a mechanical engraver? Should I just use a dremal? My form 1 got approved this morning and would like to get moving on it. |
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Posted: 7/12/2021 2:44:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or a mechanical engraver? There's the answer everyone has been looking for. ECCO Machine. |
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Posted: 7/12/2021 3:26:44 PM EDT
[#31]
The Ti tubes I’ve seen posted that failed (like Crux) are engraved way too deep and/or in too thin a spot and have sharp font.
I’ve had all my Ti tubes laser engraved. My buddy has a fiber laser, and does light passes. It never gets hot enough to not be able to touch. Just gets warm. Also uses font with no sharp corners. I was there when the laser was delivered and talked to the rep about embrittlement. He said he’s the rep that sold a laser to Gemtech for engraving their cans and it’s a non-issue if done this way… He could’ve been totally full shit, it’s impossible to say. But my tubes have been fine with 1000’s of rounds from 556 SBR. Just my two cents. |
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