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Posted: 1/31/2024 2:18:53 PM EDT
Just got two new filmless tubes and waiting on the low light innovations mh1 housing. I am seeing more and more tubes like these popping up with some really crazy snr and overall specs. If these are making it to the civilian market I can only imagine what they are doing for military contracts now

Tube 1:
SNR: 39.7
Halo: 0.6
EBI: 0.3

Tube 2:
SNR: 40.6
Halo: 0.7
EBI: 0.6
VP
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 3:51:50 PM EDT
[#1]
I think Steele Industries just had 42 snr pvs-31a's
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 3:56:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 4:09:35 PM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By Hilltop5757:
I think Steele Industries just had 42 snr pvs-31a's
View Quote


It honestly brings a tear to my eye
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 4:11:02 PM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By Hilltop5757:
I think Steele Industries just had 42 snr pvs-31a's
View Quote


I had 32SNR tubes and they were great. I live on 46 acres and have trails in the woods and a bad coyote problem. So chasing SNR this high is worth it to me since I have a lot of canopy when I am out at night
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 6:01:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 7:16:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:


Our SuperGain L3 tubes are amazingly special for canopy cover!
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Y’all have any high snr ones in stock
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 7:20:02 PM EDT
[#7]
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Originally Posted By jfva3:


Y’all have any high snr ones in stock
View Quote

My advice is spec your tubes and wait. You're spending 5 figures. Get what you want.
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 8:13:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Will] [#8]
Link Posted: 1/31/2024 9:46:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will:


Yessir, we always have great tubes on hand, but the caveat is that due to backorders they are headed into systems. We don't sell tubes individually.

It's more common to see SNR in the high 30's. Over 40 is less common. ETA: This is regarding commercially available tubes due to restrictions. The higher ones go to certain "customers".

Honestly, I wouldn't sweat a few SNR points. At these higher SNR levels they're all very similar to the eye. The SuperGain's higher luminance gain coupled with higher SNR will be more impactful in low low light than a couple of SNR by itself if what you're after is low light performance.
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Honestly could not tell a 5 snr difference at the high to mid 30s.
Link Posted: 2/2/2024 6:26:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 2/2/2024 11:40:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Visigothic] [#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will:


Yessir, we always have great tubes on hand, but the caveat is that due to backorders they are headed into systems. We don't sell tubes individually.

It's more common to see SNR in the high 30's. Over 40 is less common. ETA: This is regarding commercially available tubes due to restrictions. The higher ones go to certain "customers".

Honestly, I wouldn't sweat a few SNR points. At these higher SNR levels they're all very similar to the eye. The SuperGain's higher luminance gain coupled with higher SNR will be more impactful in low low light than a couple of SNR by itself if what you're after is low light performance.
View Quote



Does the EBI make much difference at higher SN levels with the gain being the same or less?

#1
35 SN
0.5 EBI
0.5 HALO

VS.

#2
40 SN
1.0 EBI
0.5 HALO

If EBI is background lum based on how the tube differentiates actual signal from random electron discharge heat etc. How much does gain play a role ?

Will lower gain with higher EBI and SN be equal to tube #1  Less gain means less lum over all but because of better signal and noise rejection do we still have a comparable image ?

Increased ambient temperature at some point would affect all performance but only as it pertains to EBI?  This means at some point the tube with lower EBI would degrade more rapidly despite better SN in a non linear trend compared to a tube with a lower EBI  and lower SN?

Am I correct on this? see images

Note images are generated representations and not actual tube images
Link Posted: 2/4/2024 1:51:27 PM EDT
[#12]
This brings up a good topic I was looking into regarding what individual values mean to me.

I'm looking for low light performance with less effect from "bloom" with random light sources on barns and similar things.

I am thinking the SNR is the least important to me beyond a good basic rating.  Line Pairs beyond a good base level is the next one I think I would sacrifice for better specs in other areas at a similar price point.

For a generally low light (i.e. no strong moonlight or artificial light) tube spec in a rural area, what values should I be looking for, and at what general price points in something like a PVS-14?  If looking at clip-on scope options (PVS-30 and similar), does this change much?
Link Posted: 2/4/2024 3:06:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Resolution matters a lot in a clip on. Beyond about 64 it’s doesn’t matter much in goggles.
Link Posted: 2/4/2024 3:44:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Will] [#14]
Link Posted: 2/4/2024 9:54:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnDough] [#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will:
I like the creativity making images based on specs, however, tubes are unique creatures so it doesn’t translate over well. For example, real tubes with those specs would all look very similar, and if you didn’t know the spec numbers you may even guess a “lower” spec one was the higher.

SNR is the most important when it comes to low light performance and EBI factors in very low light to a degree.

The use case plays a major role. Head mounted 1x use differences in some specs will not make a major difference in practical use once a certain level is reached.  EBI is one of those specs. My experience is that EBI is more important in a low SNR tube (say below 30 SNR).

When it comes to magnified use, a good reference are the well experienced NV astronomers who have used a lot of different tubes to see what specs they choose. EBI is very important along with SNR and resolution. This isn’t a practical use-case such as running around with head mounted nods. They are staring at highly magnified distant planets etc and subtle differences will stand out more.
View Quote

Astronomers I know are all about gain and ebi numbers, provided the rest is in order. It allows the faint nebula, etc to be better visualized. That said, the supergain tubes didnt quite get the insane ovation I thought they would over on Cloudy Nights, while I have myself, found them to be "the next step up", if only a small step.
Link Posted: 2/4/2024 11:06:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC] [#16]
Link Posted: 2/5/2024 3:38:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:


I can say with certainty Mike Lockwood one of the premiere telescope builders thinks otherwise in a dramatic way from Cloudy Nights.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/19096/regular_supergain_mosaic_specs-3063787.jpg
View Quote

Nice! My info was from early on and only 1 guy had one.
Link Posted: 2/5/2024 9:14:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FoxValleyTacDriver] [#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Will:
if you didn’t know the spec numbers you may even guess a “lower” spec one was the higher.
View Quote


I can vouch that. With two devices of the same model with the same tubes and different specs it is hard to tell unless they are way out of whack.

There's also some factors that don't show on a spec sheet. Sometimes the edge clarity varies or in astronomy they fixate on mtf. I've also seen variation in gain throughout a screen, not easy to see at first but after finding it (and looking at a Hoffman snapshot) you could see some areas of the screen were ever so slightly brighter or dimmer.

They really are all unique. But you're splitting hairs once you've gotten into a filmless unit. They are great looking tubes.
Link Posted: 2/5/2024 9:37:50 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JohnDough:

Astronomers I know are all about gain and ebi numbers, provided the rest is in order. It allows the faint nebula, etc to be better visualized. That said, the supergain tubes didnt quite get the insane ovation I thought they would over on Cloudy Nights, while I have myself, found them to be "the next step up", if only a small step.
View Quote


I dont have an astronomy setup yet but it seems guys over there percieve a loss in contrast with the boost in gain. As a result, they end up turning the gain down on the supergains to get more contrast, which would defeat the purpose of using one.

However, if you are trying to view objects farther away, I'm not sure how else you would do so without more gain.
Link Posted: 2/5/2024 1:01:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC] [#20]
Link Posted: 2/6/2024 1:46:57 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:


This ^ and the same goes for why SG tubes do so well in the shadows and heavy canopy cover.
View Quote

I quite like mine. I also have zero issues with autogain only using them. Im glad I didn't get manual gain as Id always be futzing with it.
Link Posted: 2/6/2024 8:47:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Recently saw an L3 tube with a res of 91....
Link Posted: 2/6/2024 10:28:47 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pbjunkiee:
Recently saw an L3 tube with a res of 91....
View Quote


That is great, but as we know in head worn systems and how the human eye works...at 1x past about 60lpmm the human eye cant really tell a difference. 91lpmm would be great for those with clip ons or the guys on instagram who try to one up one another with their FOM
Link Posted: 2/6/2024 2:38:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pbjunkiee:
Recently saw an L3 tube with a res of 91....
View Quote


Could be new 4μm pore MCP
Link Posted: 2/7/2024 4:33:24 AM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By jfva3:
Just got two new filmless tubes and waiting on the low light innovations mh1 housing. I am seeing more and more tubes like these popping up with some really crazy snr and overall specs. If these are making it to the civilian market I can only imagine what they are doing for military contracts now

Tube 1:
SNR: 39.7
Halo: 0.6
EBI: 0.3

Tube 2:
SNR: 40.6
Halo: 0.7
EBI: 0.6
View Quote


I had a 39.3/0.3ebi 72lp tube back in 2021 or so. They're well beyond,  now.
Link Posted: 2/7/2024 9:56:04 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JohnDough:


I had a 39.3/0.3ebi 72lp tube back in 2021 or so. They're well beyond,  now.
View Quote


Gets me excited. I have a friend with a 42snr set of Binos. He’s taught me a lot about night vision and specs etc. Showed me how resolution really doesn’t matter unless you’re magnifying it (he’s got a nice clip on that’s 81lpmm). Showed me a 57 and 64lpmm magnified to show the difference but to my naked eye on binos I see now difference in 57,64,72 and 81. This stuff is fascinating to me and it makes me curious if these high snr tubes are making it to us civilians…what kind of stuff are they sending to fulfill contracts. I’m sure there’s 50+ snr tubes in a set of quads somewhere in Africa doing cool guy shit right now
Link Posted: 2/7/2024 11:08:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 2/7/2024 4:56:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: deadbeef] [#28]
I’ve spoken with L3H tube engineer from Tempe Arizona at ShotShow, he said he didn’t saw tube over 4000 FOM yet.
Link Posted: 2/8/2024 12:26:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TNVC_Will] [#29]
Link Posted: 2/8/2024 4:12:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: chosos] [#30]
[Deleted]
Link Posted: 2/8/2024 4:53:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 2/8/2024 5:22:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Here I am with my 28SNR Elbit Green PVS14 thinking how amazing it is when I use it, and ya'll are running high 30 SNR L3's.



I guess I'll go back to being poor.
Link Posted: 2/8/2024 5:30:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gogetumnow:
Here I am with my 28SNR Elbit Green PVS14 thinking how amazing it is when I use it, and ya'll are running high 30 SNR L3's.



I guess I'll go back to being poor.
View Quote


It's the indian not the arrow. If you are out training and using your gear you will be better off than *most* of the people buying night vision just to take a photo shoot in the Buc-ees parking lot. I have been to night shooting competitions and seen guys with a single pvs14 beat everyone else who were running duals. The only time those high 30s SNR tubes will beat yours is in extreme low light, and at that point (speaking from experience) you are going to be using IR lights anyways. 28SNR and 40SNR in full moon and even half moon conditions is damn near identical. Now go outside at 1am and run around with your super power on your head and have fun!
Link Posted: 2/8/2024 5:35:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gogetumnow:
Here I am with my 28SNR Elbit Green PVS14 thinking how amazing it is when I use it, and ya'll are running high 30 SNR L3's.



I guess I'll go back to being poor.
View Quote


Lol I feel the same, bought a thin filmed whit phos L3 tube in 22 and its 26.5 SNR. Really wish i just ponied up $500 more and got a likely much higher SNR tube.
Link Posted: 2/8/2024 7:49:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gogetumnow:
Here I am with my 28SNR Elbit Green PVS14 thinking how amazing it is when I use it, and ya'll are running high 30 SNR L3's.



I guess I'll go back to being poor.
View Quote

SNR is measured at a particular illumination level.  It is actually a function of brightness, and it decreases as the signal level gets lower.  So, it is not valid for objects at the threshold of detection, and EBI becomes important.
Link Posted: 2/17/2024 11:41:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By pbjunkiee:
Recently saw an L3 tube with a res of 91....
View Quote


Where was that? Wild...
Link Posted: 2/24/2024 9:18:03 PM EDT
[#37]
What resolution on both?  72?  

Of the two, the first is slightly better with that EBI.  Both are super tubes
Link Posted: 2/24/2024 9:33:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By deadbeef:
I’ve spoken with L3H tube engineer from Tempe Arizona at ShotShow, he said he didn’t saw tube over 4000 FOM yet.
View Quote


4000 FOM is a 44 SNR at 91 Res.
Link Posted: 2/25/2024 12:49:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DefenderAO:
What resolution on both?  72?  

Of the two, the first is slightly better with that EBI.  Both are super tubes
View Quote


64 res, but honestly I could care less about the res of a helmet mounted tube. At 1x the human eye can’t differentiate between 57, 64, 72, 81. If anyone tells you different they’re wrong and just trying to get you to pay more (because most NV companies make you pay more for “better” specs). Res is something I care about for my clip on that I have on my long range rifle since it’s magnified. At 1x EBI and SNR are the driver of image quality in my opinion.
Link Posted: 2/25/2024 1:20:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DefenderAO] [#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jfva3:


64 res, but honestly I could care less about the res of a helmet mounted tube. At 1x the human eye can’t differentiate between 57, 64, 72, 81. If anyone tells you different they’re wrong and just trying to get you to pay more (because most NV companies make you pay more for “better” specs). Res is something I care about for my clip on that I have on my long range rifle since it’s magnified. At 1x EBI and SNR are the driver of image quality in my opinion.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jfva3:
Originally Posted By DefenderAO:
What resolution on both?  72?  

Of the two, the first is slightly better with that EBI.  Both are super tubes


64 res, but honestly I could care less about the res of a helmet mounted tube. At 1x the human eye can’t differentiate between 57, 64, 72, 81. If anyone tells you different they’re wrong and just trying to get you to pay more (because most NV companies make you pay more for “better” specs). Res is something I care about for my clip on that I have on my long range rifle since it’s magnified. At 1x EBI and SNR are the driver of image quality in my opinion.


I had a green phosphor 27.1 tube at 64 res and compared to my WP 36.1 72 res unit.  I could tell a clarity difference, bt it was likely due to the other specs playing part.  I do think there are diminishing returns when you start talking 38 vs 40 SNR other than bragging rights.
Link Posted: 2/26/2024 5:13:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DefenderAO:


I had a green phosphor 27.1 tube at 64 res and compared to my WP 36.1 72 res unit.  I could tell a clarity difference, bt it was likely due to the other specs playing part.  I do think there are diminishing returns when you start talking 38 vs 40 SNR other than bragging rights.
View Quote


Your upgrade in “clarity” was the jump from 27SNR to 36.1…anyone can say they see a difference but science doesn’t lie on this topic. At 1x the human eye can’t make out the differences in line pairs
Link Posted: 2/26/2024 7:42:06 PM EDT
[#42]
There are apparently some people that can see the difference but they are the exceptions that prove the rule. And they are all young.

At my age and vision quality I’d probably take a 57lp tube to save money.
Link Posted: 2/29/2024 2:03:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ryan_Scott:
There are apparently some people that can see the difference but they are the exceptions that prove the rule. And they are all young.

At my age and vision quality I’d probably take a 57lp tube to save money.
View Quote


Even with 20/20 and 20/40 vision the human eye can’t make out the difference. They brains and eyes are just playing tricks on them
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