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Posted: 11/20/2018 11:00:14 AM EDT
[#1]
For those tubes? Mid 20’s? Hell no. 64-72 lpmm and at least 30. At least.
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Posted: 11/20/2018 11:03:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Probably around 1800...
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Posted: 11/20/2018 11:43:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Typically the tubes we sell are
30.0+ SNR 2000 Photo cathode sensitivity is normal 64-72 lp .1-1.2 EBI .5-.9 halo There are exceptions to this rule and sometimes they are slightly lower, but often times they exceed the specs in certain areas by a wide margin. All tubes meet and exceed the milspec minimums for OMNI 8 contracted number that we sell unless otherwise specified, and those will be sold cheaper due to their commercial specs. |
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Posted: 11/20/2018 11:56:47 AM EDT
[#4]
A set of DTNVGs from TNVC was almost exactly what was stated above
29 snr 72lpmm |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 10:25:48 AM EDT
[#5]
bunch of links that explain things, thank the authors for writing the information
Details on how to interpret parameters http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/348408_help_interpreting__tube_data_sheet_from_TNVC.html Understanding basic tube parameters and their significance. - http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=348609 What is a halo, how is it formed and what does it mean? - http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=341265 ebi - was discussed in another current thread. the effect of temp on the dark current can be seen in this youtube vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS4yu4LQJ54 note, depending on what you intend to use a nod for, you might want different specs, for instance, a tube for astronomy use, too bad for the member that isn't allowed here, he had a lot of information |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 10:59:43 AM EDT
[#6]
Unless you ask for/pay for better, expect 64lp, 29-32 SNR, Halo .7 EBI .9 and a single medium or 2 tiny blems in outter edge of tube.
Halo is the amount of bloomy bright circle around bright pinpoints like stars, laser dots, headlights, etc. Less is better. EBI is the amount of scintillation or sparkle and background glow with low light and high gain or that snowy static effect that masks detail in low light. Less is better. Honestly, anything under 1.0 on either is great compared to older Gen 3 tubes that could have over 2.0 on those. Halo is appearant all the time. EBI is masked by more SNR or brighter conditions. An old tube with 2.4 Halo does not make for a nice star gazing experience and makes IR lasers harder to use at longer ranges. I think a current L3 tube crushes any pre OMNI 7 tube for view quality in general, but that still only means it is less than twice as good, perhaps 25-50% better. |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 12:23:17 PM EDT
[#7]
I just wanted to say thank you to all that have replied to my questions. I have a lot more reading to do.
-Mike |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 1:41:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just wanted to say thank you to all that have replied to my questions. I have a lot more reading to do. -Mike 
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Posted: 11/21/2018 6:25:08 PM EDT
[#9]
I have a TNVC L3 WP pvs14 and off the top of my head the specs are:
SNR 34.2 72lp/mm EBI I want to say 1.2 Has no blems and produces an extremely nice image. |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 7:07:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably around 1800... |
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Posted: 11/21/2018 7:39:23 PM EDT
[#11]
I would highly recommend that you only expect the minimum specs, anything above that would be a bonus and you will be happy. Otherwise you are setting your self up for dissapointment.
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Posted: 11/22/2018 11:02:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As mentioned, TNVC is easily 2200+. Mine is 2600+ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Probably around 1800... |
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Posted: 11/22/2018 11:12:52 AM EDT
[#13]
I have several L3 filmless WP’s right now my lowest is a 64lp/29SN and highest is 72lp/34+. I’ve both out same pvs-14 housing dark cloudy night side by side and I can barely and I mean barely see a tiny slight edge to the 72/34SN vs the lower spec 64lp/29sn. Without having them side by side I won’t be able to see any difference and I do have perfect vision.
I’ve had crazy high spec pinnacle and filmless tubes in the past some in the 64/72lp 37SN zone. I quit chasing specs and started focusing on screen quality many years back. Personally, I would take the tube with the best screen cosmetics vs a tube with few higher SN digits. |
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Posted: 11/22/2018 11:13:43 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would hardly call TNVC "Typical" or "Average". Vic has a long history of weeding out the bottom of the bell curve before it gets to his customers. |
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Posted: 11/23/2018 9:35:07 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The ones I got 2+ years ago that did not come from TNVC are both 36.5 snr and 72 lp/mm. So it's great you got some good performing equipment, but not everyone can count on getting similar specs. And FOM1800 is about 64 lp/mm and 28 S/N... It's still considered an excellent level. David. |
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Posted: 12/24/2018 4:45:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would hardly call TNVC "Typical" or "Average". Vic has a long history of weeding out the bottom of the bell curve before it gets to his customers. We deliver what Vic orders. That's how contracts work. If he orders minimum 2200 FOM that's what he gets. That is of course, just the minimum. |
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Posted: 12/24/2018 5:47:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The question was about L-3 Unfilmed, not I-Squared in General. We deliver what Vic orders. That's how contracts work. If he orders minimum 2200 FOM that's what he gets. That is of course, just the minimum.
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Posted: 12/25/2018 10:36:21 AM EDT
[#18]
I stand corrected then - If the latest tubes have the average yield up that far, even for commercial sales, that's really very impressive.
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Posted: 12/25/2018 8:35:09 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I stand corrected then - If the latest tubes have the average yield up that far, even for commercial sales, that's really very impressive. |
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Posted: 12/25/2018 9:11:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Hey Everyone, Please forgive my amateur question. I’ve been reading a lot of post and reading articles but I have not found the answer to my question(s). Maybe someone on here can give me some input. This is what I think I know. I hear a lot of 64-72 Ip/mm and 28-30 S/N, I also have a basic understanding of FOM (Ip/mm + X S/N). I am new to concepts like EBI and Halo. I know that a higher FOM will allow more visibility in darker environments but an IR light will level the playing field. Is the 64ish Ip/mm, mid 20’s S/N realm more realistic or is it kind of a under promise and over deliver scenario? Whats the “average” FOM a person can expect from L-3 un-filmed WP? What am I missing? Thanks guys! 
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Posted: 12/28/2018 4:51:42 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Indeed, we're so happy with what we order for our customers and L3 does produce the most amazing specs we've ever seen. No sales pitch or koolaide, just based on looking at thousands of data sheets and images over many years. They have cracked the code and cannnot wait what the future will bring. Thank you Sir, Merry Christmas. Saying L3 has cracked the code is like saying that if you put a million monkeys in a room with typewriters they will eventually start pumping out Vice News articles and it's the best journalism ever. L3 sucks. They have always sucked and now that Harris can sell satellite radios with awesome L3 tech what do they give a fuck about tubes? They'll gut it like ITT, hire an army of visa workers and fire them seasonally. Photonis already has the better product, that's where the future is. L3 sells the tubes like this: 18um, 22um so when you buy the tubes you get those minimum specs. Except the QC is shit. Edge glow from over cooked tubes and the contract leftovers are what they are selling the masses and stamping approved on everything they make. Also, please update the astronomy thread. It's the best thread here and you take amazing pictures using tubes that no normal human enjoys. Show us more please. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 8:46:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, please update the astronomy thread. It's the best thread here and you take amazing pictures using tubes that no normal human enjoys. Show us more please. |
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Posted: 12/28/2018 9:43:37 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 12/28/2018 7:18:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Merry Christmas to you too! Saying L3 has cracked the code is like saying that if you put a million monkeys in a room with typewriters they will eventually start pumping out Vice News articles and it's the best journalism ever. L3 sucks. They have always sucked and now that Harris can sell satellite radios with awesome L3 tech what do they give a fuck about tubes? They'll gut it like ITT, hire an army of visa workers and fire them seasonally. Photonis already has the better product, that's where the future is. L3 sells the tubes like this: 18um, 22um so when you buy the tubes you get those minimum specs. Except the QC is shit. Edge glow from over cooked tubes and the contract leftovers are what they are selling the masses and stamping approved on everything they make. Also, please update the astronomy thread. It's the best thread here and you take amazing pictures using tubes that no normal human enjoys. Show us more please. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Indeed, we're so happy with what we order for our customers and L3 does produce the most amazing specs we've ever seen. No sales pitch or koolaide, just based on looking at thousands of data sheets and images over many years. They have cracked the code and cannnot wait what the future will bring. Thank you Sir, Merry Christmas. Saying L3 has cracked the code is like saying that if you put a million monkeys in a room with typewriters they will eventually start pumping out Vice News articles and it's the best journalism ever. L3 sucks. They have always sucked and now that Harris can sell satellite radios with awesome L3 tech what do they give a fuck about tubes? They'll gut it like ITT, hire an army of visa workers and fire them seasonally. Photonis already has the better product, that's where the future is. L3 sells the tubes like this: 18um, 22um so when you buy the tubes you get those minimum specs. Except the QC is shit. Edge glow from over cooked tubes and the contract leftovers are what they are selling the masses and stamping approved on everything they make. Also, please update the astronomy thread. It's the best thread here and you take amazing pictures using tubes that no normal human enjoys. Show us more please.
What I meant on "cracked the code" is the incredible high spec tubes they put out. Harris FAILED miserably trying to develope a fimless tube and failed hard! Funny though, Harris did aquire L3 as you know, so now you have to say Harris sucks too!  The US Mil tube business is worth MILLIONS along with foreign sales so please don't kid yourself. As for Photinis, the 4G INTENS is somewhat impressive out of band, but their Echo tubes as you made a somewhat example of what L3 does? Hmm, not sure but we don't sell Echo tubes for a big reason here at TNVC because most of them DON'T perform OOB very well or in very dark nights even though they advertise they do! They also don't perfom in the dark nights as well as the HARRIS OR L3...But hey 50% of folks don't operate in real dark areas but have city lights and the Harris and L3 tubes are blind in these environments! Smoking mirrors period and I have all the data to prove it. But hey, it's a free market to other dealers to make easy money selling this and that with Photinis Echo tubes. Get the INTENS 4G for OOB but they still underperform in the darkest nights vs. L3 Filmless. Known fact...
All good, we do like high spec tubes and so do our customers, and as mentioned what separates us from other NV Dealers is we build and control everything before we build I'll work on the other thread with some more pics...Thanks mann!
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Posted: 12/28/2018 11:18:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
, Harris did acquire L3 as you know, so now you have to say Harris sucks too! Zero technology has been transferred between the two companies. They are still separate entities. There is at least one stockholder lawsuit claiming that the L3 stock is being undervalued at the assessed merger value that will no doubt put a kink into the whole thing as well. |
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Posted: 12/29/2018 12:48:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Harris and L3 are merging. Said merger has been announced, but not yet approved by any of the alphabet agencies (FTC, DOD, SEC, etc). The merger will not actually happen until May or possibly later. At this point nobody knows if the merger will go through without one of the two tube houses being divested. Zero technology has been transferred between the two companies. They are still separate entities. There is at least one stockholder lawsuit claiming that the L3 stock is being undervalued at the assessed merger value that will no doubt put a kink into the whole thing as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
, Harris did acquire L3 as you know, so now you have to say Harris sucks too! Zero technology has been transferred between the two companies. They are still separate entities. There is at least one stockholder lawsuit claiming that the L3 stock is being undervalued at the assessed merger value that will no doubt put a kink into the whole thing as well. |
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Posted: 12/29/2018 3:00:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Harris and L3 are merging. Said merger has been announced, but not yet approved by any of the alphabet agencies (FTC, DOD, SEC, etc). The merger will not actually happen until May or possibly later. At this point nobody knows if the merger will go through without one of the two tube houses being divested. Zero technology has been transferred between the two companies. They are still separate entities. There is at least one stockholder lawsuit claiming that the L3 stock is being undervalued at the assessed merger value that will no doubt put a kink into the whole thing as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
, Harris did acquire L3 as you know, so now you have to say Harris sucks too! Zero technology has been transferred between the two companies. They are still separate entities. There is at least one stockholder lawsuit claiming that the L3 stock is being undervalued at the assessed merger value that will no doubt put a kink into the whole thing as well. Will be interesting to see how the future tubes turn out from this. One would think they'll be the same L3 tubes as of late....for filmless at least. |
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Posted: 12/30/2018 1:22:11 AM EDT
[#28]
Harris has a serious advantage in terms of communications technology over L3. Even outside of this, there would have to be technological knowledge that one company has that would benefit the other when they bring all their tube IP together.
Keep in mind that while each could see the other's final product, the IP supporting that product has previously been a secret... Now it's all in one big pool. Indeed, I think this is going to be interesting, though I suspect it's still a few years before they start to really see the benefits. |
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Posted: 1/5/2019 10:37:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Harris has a serious advantage in terms of communications technology over L3. Even outside of this, there would have to be technological knowledge that one company has that would benefit the other when they bring all their tube IP together. L-3 has better/more aviation, avionics, simulation, and remote sensing satellites. Other than Night Vision, the two companies have very little overlap. I figure it's at least 50:50 that the DOD says the merged entity will have to sell off one of the two tube houses to maintain competition. If so, I expect it would be the old ITT shop on the chopping block. Union shop (VA) vs. Right to work state (AZ) means higher labor costs. (this is obviously speculation. I do not speak for L-3, Harris, the DOD, or the FTC) |
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Posted: 1/7/2019 9:57:33 AM EDT
[#30]
I have TNVC sentinels, but had to send them in for warranty work, the sheet for my tube that wasn't replaced was lost in the process. The sheet I got for my replacement tube is:
Sensitivity: 2156 EBI 0.3 S/N: 25.8 Resolution: 64lp/mm Halo: 0.8 |
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Posted: 1/7/2019 10:12:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have TNVC sentinels, but had to send them in for warranty work, the sheet for my tube that wasn't replaced was lost in the process. The sheet I got for my replacement tube is: Sensitivity: 2156 EBI 0.3 S/N: 25.8 Resolution: 64lp/mm Halo: 0.8 |
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Posted: 1/7/2019 11:51:10 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I figure it's at least 50:50 that the DOD says the merged entity will have to sell off one of the two tube houses to maintain competition. If so, I expect it would be the old ITT shop on the chopping block. Union shop (VA) vs. Right to work state (AZ) means higher labor costs. (this is obviously speculation. I do not speak for L-3, Harris, the DOD, or the FTC) |
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Posted: 1/7/2019 3:20:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: These are specs for your l3 filmless wp tubes? |
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Posted: 1/7/2019 8:43:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: VA is a right to work state. However, if they do have to sell I bet the ITT shop in Roanoke will be sold since the L3 shop is pumping out the better tubes that DOD and everyone else wants. The US military is getting kind of picky about quality. If they start asking for S/N >30 for all product supplied, can what is left of ITT even keep up given that they seem to have killed off their research division? The value in the product has been shown to be easily damaged by the entire Harris deal, and unless there's a market for the product post-purchase, I can't image too many companies would be looking to take what was left of ITT unless they were already heading in this direction and perhaps were already picking up some of their lost engineering. Selling off the old ITT resources now, after L3 removes any valuable IP, would be like trying to sell off a Michelin Star rated restaurant after you've fired all the chefs... David |
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Posted: 1/7/2019 10:19:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, I got the spec sheet if you want a pic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: These are specs for your l3 filmless wp tubes? |
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Posted: 1/8/2019 1:08:14 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't post the spec sheet per ITAR, but I'm curious about those specs as well.. |
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Posted: 1/8/2019 5:01:43 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, I got the spec sheet if you want a pic. |
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Posted: 1/8/2019 4:36:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No I was just curious. That seems on the lower end of the spectrum for specs. |
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Posted: 1/8/2019 5:41:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No I was just curious. That seems on the lower end of the spectrum for specs. |
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Posted: 1/8/2019 5:44:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is 18um on a tube referring to minimum FOM (1800)? The UM simply means Unlimited (FOM) and Military spot spec. There are minimum FOMs for the U ratings however. 18 UM is 1540 minimum, 20 UM is 1792 minimum and 22UM is 1920 minimum. |
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Posted: 1/8/2019 10:57:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe he's reading the wrong column? |
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