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Posted: 10/30/2018 6:36:12 PM EDT
I had my heart set on a Ruger PC carbine... Then, my buddy got the Sub 2000, and put $150 dollars worth of aftermarket parts in it. After the upgrades, it is a pretty sweet little carbine. Now I am a little torn. I am only 5'6" tall so the 12.62" - 14.12" adjustable LOP on the Ruger PC is attractive. Is the Sub 2000 adjustable? I found an article that said LOP for it was "Stock collapsed, 13.25 in.; stock extended, 14.5 in." I like that the magazines fit into the pistol grip shortening the overall length of the Sub 2000. Is there anything else I should be considering between the two?
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I can't really compare the two, I only have the Ruger pc9. But I really like it with the 30 round Glock magazines. It's been one hundred percent, and it's a lot of fun to shoot.
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I know the Ruger takes down, but the SUB folds. My Gen 1 is my secondary to my Glock 23.
The Ruger will easily convert to other calibers in time. The Gen 2 2000 is adjustable for LOP. |
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I have had both. Get the Ruger. Quality is much better. My sub gun felt cheap and accuracy was poor. I hated the cheap peep hole sights on the sub gun. Trigger is much better on the Ruger.
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The PCC is a much better gun than the Sub2000 in almost every way. Get the Ruger!
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I own a Gen 1 Sub2K and a Ruger PCC. The Ruger is by far the better firearm in my opinion. I also believe that long term the PCC will have better accessories, more accessories, and be more durable. Put another way the Sub2k will always just be a Sub2k. The PCC has an almost unlimited future as far as stocks, parts, optics, etc. My opinion, buy the Ruger.
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I really appreciate all the insight. Especially from those of you that have experience with both. Thank you.
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Also if you want to use a red dot or optics the Ruger is really the only choice. You can’t do this in the subgun without odd folding mounts.
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Quoted: Also if you want to use a red dot or optics the Ruger is really the only choice. You can’t do this in the subgun without odd folding mounts. View Quote 1) - on the top rail. The further forward the more you can still fold it. Obviously it won't still fold all the way. 2) - Red Lion rotating forend - can run a red dot or an LER scope. 3) - off set mounts. 4) - folding mounts. Because the 2000 has been around since, oh, 2000, and the SUB-9 and SUB-40, there is an aftermarket for it w/ replacement triggers, forends, etc. Most of the complaints here by non-users have already been addressed. It's the smallest, lightest Title 1 rifle you'll ever handle - the folding bbl AR folds to the same length, but is much bulkier and about 6 times the price. The Ruger will undoubtedly end up w/ a large aftermarket, but it's not there yet. |
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Had a sub. Trying to sell it to pay back my bank account for buying the PCC. One feels like a toy, the other feels like a rifle. Not that the Sub doesn't have its uses while traveling, but I like the Ruger better.
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I dismissed the sub for a long time. After the need for a cheap truck gun became a reality, it fits the bill perfectly.
Fits my carry G19 mags, folds to store in the seat-back of my truck, shoots 5" groups at 50 yards, super light weight. I did add a bolt/buffer tube cheek insulator, charging handle and a shok-buff. All from McArbo around 60.00, they all helped greatly. I rarely look at my bank statement and think, "I'm really glad I bought that after-all." I can say that about the SUB2. I dont own a Ruger, for clarity. |
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For all-around use, I would opt for the PC Carbine. I purchased one shortly after they started showing up in the local shops and it has been a wondeful rifle.
I saw someone mention in GD that they felt the take-down feature was of dubious value... and for my uses, I would be inclined to agree. If I was strictly looking for a backpacking take-down, I would give more consideration to the Sub2000. Also consider that the PC Carbine is slightly on the heavy side for a PCC, IMO. The trade-off is a solid feel and very low felt recoil. Overall, the PC Carbine has been fantastic. It does, however, currently lack in the aftermarket, but manufacturers are quickly working to fill the void. If we see lightweight stock options made available, I would be tempted to get a second PC Carbine. Anyhoo, both platforms are available in Glock mag configuration. The benefit to the PC Carbine is the removable magwell (possibly more mag options to come?). I think you'll find that 31/33rd mags in the PC Carbine are somewhat cumbersome and feel a little out of place. I prefer 15rd mags or, at most, Magpull P21 mags. But the ability to use whatever capacity I like is much appreciated. |
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Quoted:
neither. Get a Scorpion or build a 9mm AR. View Quote I owned a braced Evo 3 for quite some time and I think it is a fantastic option. The mags just killed it for me. With about 2 dozen assorted gen 1 and 2 mags on hand, I was getting stressed at the prospect of having to wait for them to break and then send them to CZ for replacement. Just too much hassle for me. That said, I hope the newer windowed gen 3 mags will have solved the problem for good. The Evo is a great pistol/carbine and I'd like to see its popularity continue. |
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No doubt the Ruger is made better, of better materials, and a much more substantial carbine. But, we're talking 9mm here. What do you need in a 9mm carbine other than reliability and mediocre accuracy out to 100 yards?
The S2K is a little cheaper than the Ruger. It's quite a bit lighter. Based on my S2K and the ones I've seen, it's super reliable. There are aftermarket parts available to improve the trigger. The iron sights are junk, but easy to remove. I use a Samson QD mount on a Vortex Venom and move the optic from top rail (when shooting) to bottom rail when stored. Return to zero is close enough to keep all rounds centered on a 5" plate at 25 yards. If the S2K was a 5.56 carbine, I'd expect a hell of a lot more out of it. But for 9mm, it does what it needs, in a very lightweight package, with great reliability. Attached File |
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I have both. The Ruger is a better shooter, but the Sub is much much more compact, If you are looking for a little more security than a handgun while traveling, the folded sub fits nicely in a small laptop case + easily fits in those hotel room safes.
The Ruger is larger & much heavier, seems like it was overbuilt to handle "The rumored" 10mm round. My Marlin Camp 9 is the best shooter of all & the prices are dropping lately, probably due to the introduction of the Ruger. |
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I HAD a Sub 2000. Didn't like it, so I sold it quickly. A new PC9 is in the safe, waiting on the next range day.
Accountant |
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I have no experience with either but Maybe the Micro Roni Stab 3.5 is another option to consider?
https://www.shootcenter.com/product/micro-roni-stabilizer-3-5/ |
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I really really wanted to like the Ruger PC Carbine, but once I shouldered one at the LGS -- man, does it feel heavy for a 'fun' 9mm carbine. Like holding a 308 Scout.
To me -- a braced CZ Scorpion 'pistol' is a better choice for a 9mm fun 'carbine' -- shorter, lighter, mags are cheap, and accessories are plentiful. And the Scorpion's barrel, while not as long as the Ruger, is plenty for 9mm. If I was really set on a true "rifle", I'd go with the 16" Scorpion Carbine. And if you need a true, tuck-away truck or backpack gun, the Sub2000 fits the bill better. (I still really like Ruger, so of course they still get enough of my money on their other great products.) |
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I really like the 4.5lb weight of the SUB-2K, but the Extar EP9 seems to be even lighter and just as reliable.
I DO like that the SUB-2K can fold, but I'm tempted to put a red dot on it and leave it partially unfolded at all times. That said, it's spent 99% of the time folded (because it can I guess). I upgraded to the M*Carbo rear sight, and it's a big improvement. I also put in the flat trigger, springs, recoil-reducing bolt handle, etc. About $150 in parts. The recoil is less than my 4.5" barreled CZ Scorpion--it is soft shooter with a few mods and a muzzle brake. I wanted it foldable because it's going to be the truck-gun, good for anything out to about 125 yards. It has a G17 mag in it (it's a G19 2.0 model), and I have a 33rd mag in three ranger bands on the handguard (so 50rds on board). -- I say, if it's for HD and plinking the Ruger is likely much nicer. If it's ever going to be stashed or you just like the novelty of a foldable gun, the SUB-2K is fine. |
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I have both. The Ruger is hands down the better gun quality wise. Solid little gun. I can't bring myself to get rid of the Keltec because the folding feature makes it so convenient.
It fits into this like it was made for it. If I could only pick one I guess it would be the Ruger. Hard choice though. |
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Ruger weighs 7 lbs
Sub2k is 4 lbs. That's a big difference when you're talking something you will be toting around all day. I agree the Sub2k trigger is terrible compared to most other pccs. Mounting optics on the Ruger would be easier but there are options for the Sub2k. I'm fond of the fact the Sub2k takes Beretta 92 mags, that's mainly why I have one. The Sub2k isn't the most ergonomic setup, it's light, slim and if you don't bolt on 5 lbs of accessories on it, it's easy to fold up and tuck almost anywhere. It's handy when you need it, like a pocket .380. But a pocket .380 isn't a lot of fun on the range either. If I only had one pcc I'd lean towards the Ruger, although I'm not a fan of the takedown barrels. If it came in a fixed barrel version I'd choose that first. |
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Ruger - built to last. Kel Tec products always felt super cheap to me.
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Quoted:
Ruger weighs 7 lbs Sub2k is 4 lbs. That's a big difference when you're talking something you will be toting around all day. I agree the Sub2k trigger is terrible compared to most other pccs. Mounting optics on the Ruger would be easier but there are options for the Sub2k. I'm fond of the fact the Sub2k takes Beretta 92 mags, that's mainly why I have one. The Sub2k isn't the most ergonomic setup, it's light, slim and if you don't bolt on 5 lbs of accessories on it, it's easy to fold up and tuck almost anywhere. It's handy when you need it, like a pocket .380. But a pocket .380 isn't a lot of fun on the range either. If I only had one pcc I'd lean towards the Ruger, although I'm not a fan of the takedown barrels. If it came in a fixed barrel version I'd choose that first. View Quote |
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The KelTec is lighter and a little more compact. That would be the only reason to pick it over the Ruger. The Ruger is better at everything.......everything.
I have two of each. If I need a light compact backpack type gun I would take the KelTec every time. I doubt my Rugers will get taken down much for anything other than a rare cleaning. Would have bought them even if they didn’t break down. Bought them to shoot not pack or hide. Quoted:
I wish butler creek made one of their folding stocks for the PC carbine. View Quote |
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The KelTec is lighter and a little more compact. That would be the only reason to pick it over the Ruger. The Ruger is better at everything.......everything. I have two of each. If I need a light compact backpack type gun I would take the KelTec every time. I doubt my Rugers will get taken down much for anything other than a rare cleaning. Would have bought them even if they didn’t break down. Bought them to shoot not pack or hide. There will eventually be a lot of options for this gun. I’d bet on it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
The KelTec is lighter and a little more compact. That would be the only reason to pick it over the Ruger. The Ruger is better at everything.......everything. I have two of each. If I need a light compact backpack type gun I would take the KelTec every time. I doubt my Rugers will get taken down much for anything other than a rare cleaning. Would have bought them even if they didn’t break down. Bought them to shoot not pack or hide. Quoted:
I wish butler creek made one of their folding stocks for the PC carbine. |
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@squiggy
If you have an Academy in your area, they are supposed to be selling the PC Carbine for $399 for black friday if that helps your decision at all. I can't vouch for this site or their affiliation with the store, but it looks like a legit Academy weekly flier. Link |
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Quoted:
@squiggy If you have an Academy in your area, they are supposed to be selling the PC Carbine for $399 for black friday if that helps your decision at all. I can't vouch for this site or their affiliation with the store, but it looks like a legit Academy weekly flier. Link View Quote |
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Quoted:
And yet my ban era SUB is still chugging along as my daily secondary. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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I recently purchased a Sub 2000 Gen 2 in OD green. I could not be happier with this gun. It scratches an itch that I didn't know I had. I have always poo poo'ed Kel Tec, and the Sub 2000 leaves a little to be desired in it's construction, but overall it is a fantastic gun. Super light, super compact given that it has a 16" barrel, and accurate. I didn't touch the sites on mine from the box and I was nailing clay pigeons at 25 yards with it and then starting hitting the fragments. The trigger sucks, but mine is much better than I thought it would. 150 rds through it with no jams. I'm going to slap a laser/light combo on it and call it good. I can mount that on the side rails as to not interfere with the folding of the rifle.
Negatives: Kel Tec could sink another $60 to $100 bucks into the price of the S2K and make it a great rifle from the box. I will be sinking around $150 into mine for MCARBO parts (trigger, folding latch, and springs). I plan on purchasing another on or I may pick a Ruger. |
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I have a SUB-2000 (.40, Gen 2, that takes M&P magazines... as I have a 5” M&P40) and would consider a Ruger PC... just not in 9mm.
I got one of the nickel boron Kel-Tec rifles. It is nice, but it isn’t a super quality finish. Any parts I swapped in, I sent to CCR for plating. But I also redid most of the gun with MCARBO parts. I have the trigger bar to install, but holding off until I get the red dot mount they are working on (will also get the Loctite that they use for the receiver nut, as I forgot to order with the trigger bar). Best observation I can make of the stock SUB-2000... somewhere between paintball and BB gun. Not airsoft level, and will fire a round... just feels like garbage pulling the trigger. Adding the MCARBO parts, it feels like an actual firearm. Trigger is nice, and pull doesn’t give you all the creep with the polymer parts interacting with one another. Now, I don’t have any issue with the PC9, and hear a lot of praise for it. However, not much aftermarket out yet... and nobody really knows where it will lead. My main issue for me... I don’t use a gun that takes 9mm Glock magazines (don’t see it changing unless the agency I’m going into selects a Glock... either issued or allowed for private purchase). I do have a Glock 30S, with plenty of magazines, as well as D/I .45 AR (when I leave NJ, getting higher capacity magazines from Macon Armory and having them thread the barrel for a suppressor). If they offer it in .45... I’ll buy it. Just a better suppressor host in .45 than 9mm. If you decide on the Kel-Tec, I definitely recommend putting extra money into MCARBO parts. If you are going to leave it stock, get the Ruger. |
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Quoted:
TWO STAMPS! I love messing with this: https://i.imgur.com/CiiFBu3.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nRKate5.jpg The Ruger is to big and heavy. View Quote |
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Quoted:. TWO STAMPS!
I love messing with this: https://i.imgur.com/CiiFBu3.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nRKate5.jpg The Ruger is to big and heavy. View Quote |
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I probably would have kept my Kel-Tec if the mcarbo stuff was stuff was available at the time. However looks like you can easily double the price of the gun with all of the mcarbo upgrades.
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I think we are on the cusp of seeing SUB-2000 80% kits, or just do your own tube.
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It would save an SBR stamp for one if you could make your own tube and figure out an arm brace or go without. Not everyone wants a SUB pistol, but a firearm that converts from pistol to rifle and back again has specific legal advantages in Texas.
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Quoted:
I really really wanted to like the Ruger PC Carbine, but once I shouldered one at the LGS -- man, does it feel heavy for a 'fun' 9mm carbine. Like holding a 308 Scout. To me -- a braced CZ Scorpion 'pistol' is a better choice for a 9mm fun 'carbine' -- shorter, lighter, mags are cheap, and accessories are plentiful. And the Scorpion's barrel, while not as long as the Ruger, is plenty for 9mm. If I was really set on a true "rifle", I'd go with the 16" Scorpion Carbine. And if you need a true, tuck-away truck or backpack gun, the Sub2000 fits the bill better. (I still really like Ruger, so of course they still get enough of my money on their other great products.) View Quote |
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I really wanted to stop being a gear snob and like Kel Tec, as I had a PF9 frame crack a few days before a planned stay in Atlanta and it was my carry gun. A decade goes by, and I want to let them prove themselves. So I buy a sub 2k for an RV trip and it's recalled 2 days later for exploding. not thrilled about that one. Sold it at a loss with disclosure and let someone else wait for the recall. Instead got my noveske pistol tuned up and took that. Heavier, wider, but significantly less likely to blow up.
I want to like the sub 2k, and in form I really do. It's small, light, quick to bring up, cheap, etc. It would fit in my bedside drawer and was very easy to carry, but I don't trust the brand. When/if MagPul comes out with the backpacker for the 9mm take down I will get it. I have the take down 22 in a backpacker and it's my most shot gun. Not because it's the best, but because it lives in my truck so it's always at the range. |
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Quoted:
I really wanted to stop being a gear snob and like Kel Tec, as I had a PF9 frame crack a few days before a planned stay in Atlanta and it was my carry gun. A decade goes by, and I want to let them prove themselves. So I buy a sub 2k for an RV trip and it's recalled 2 days later for exploding. not thrilled about that one. Sold it at a loss with disclosure and let someone else wait for the recall. Instead got my noveske pistol tuned up and took that. Heavier, wider, but significantly less likely to blow up. I want to like the sub 2k, and in form I really do. It's small, light, quick to bring up, cheap, etc. It would fit in my bedside drawer and was very easy to carry, but I don't trust the brand. When/if MagPul comes out with the backpacker for the 9mm take down I will get it. I have the take down 22 in a backpacker and it's my most shot gun. Not because it's the best, but because it lives in my truck so it's always at the range. View Quote |
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Quoted:
So you never even used your sub2k? View Quote I wanted to like it, I wanted to keep it. I didn't feel safe about it, and it's keeping up the 100% failure rate I've owned with that brand. |
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Had a Sub2K. Clever idea, liked the fact that it stowed inside the spare tire, but never could get my head down on the crappy sights and putting a red dot on it seemed to not make sense. The Ruger is a far better firearm for my purposes, especially if somebody eventually makes a folding stock for it.
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I have both of them ... The Sub 2000 is been very reliable for me and fun to shoot... And eats everything I feed it ....
The Ruger is a better made gun .... But I dont as many rounds on it yet so cant vouch yet for the reliability .... Anyway the Sub 2000 wins in the area of been able to conceal it better and makes and excellent choice as a truck gun or when camping If you are lookin for a HD option them the B&T GHM9 or the CZ Scorpion are awesome option .... |
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