Help! Need advices,

Just recently got my Dead Air sandman-s back from repair sometime back in April, took about 8 weeks for repairs. Reason why it was in repair, was when I finally took possession of it earlier this year, I sent ~190rds of 223/556 through it and shot the blast baffle loose.

So fast forward to today, installed a Forward Control Design 6315KM on my brand new PWS mk111 mod1 upper. Everything went smooth and installed the can with the 556 flashhider end cap and look down the barrel (through the charging handle end) and noticed a slight crescent moon obstruction on the lower left 7-8 o'clock position from the suppressor.  So, thought to myself thats odd,  decided to tried my sandman-k and YHM turbo k with the dead air keymo and no issues or barrel obstructions from what I can tell (this is my method of alignment check, I also have an alignment rod, but its bent). So I decided to try the sandman-S on my pws mk114 which had the dead air flashhider professionally installed, pinned & welded, noticed the same slight crescent moon obstruction in the same position. Upon further inspections of my dead air sandman-s, it look like the tech that repaired my can, welded the mount on crooked causing the tube to cant slightly to the left....like W-T-F




It's hard to tell from the photos, but it's there. No issues w/ the 762 flashhider endcap and I've already contacted Dead Air Support. So what I should I do?

1. Just run it with the 762 flashhider endcap only? this can was purchased primarily to be use on 11in AR SBR, I don't want to be limited to just the 762 flashhider endcap as I like to use the 223/556 flashhider endcap for a bit more suppression.
2. Is there going to be a significant POI shift with the can canted slightly to the left like that?

3. See what DeadAir says...?

@Mageever

Does it pass the rod test?

Pun intended?

He said he didn’t use a rod because his was bent...

I know it sucks, but I would send it back.  Maybe they can "prioritize" it and get it back to you quick.  No way I would accept that.  
Good luck...

I really don't want to wait another 8 weeks on this can....but the weld near the mount is all botched up.

Lol did you see AAC’s weld in that other thread?
Botched weld... ?


Still could be perfectly functional.

Yes, but it shouldn't even look like this where it could causes the can to cant slightly left...

Can you take a picture of the bore or are you just talking about the circumferential weld not being straight?

Ran over to a friends house and grab his alignment rod. The first two is with the 556 flashhider endcap and the last one is with a 762 flashhider end cap





My issue is that I believed the tech who repaired my can, didn't weld the mount on straight causing the can to cant to the left ever so slightly causing misalignment on not just one upper, but on all three uppers I have on hand. My sandman-k and my turbo K are fine on all the uppers, except this sandman-s. This was not the case when I first got it in hand and shot it through both my pws mk114 with a professionally pin and welded dead air flashhider from Weapon Outfitters and my 11.5 Adams Arms upper with flashhider installed with the supplied dead air shims.

Check it with a rod without the front cap.  If it is still cocked in the last baffle, without at least 20 thou clearance it probably needs to get more brain surgery.

I would send it back.  You have other cans and there is 0 reason to take a chance.

Checked it without the end cap and its still canted towards the last baffle, it'll clear it but most likely will kiss the 556 flashhider endcap for sure, 762 FH endcap should be fine. But it seemed they cut the hell out of the baffles, comparing it to my sandman-k baffles.




I''ll probably won't hear back from them till after Monday, so I'll just hold off on shooting it this weekend. Pretty damn livid with the situation.

Just be thankful you checked the alignment and didn’t end up with a worse problem.  +1 on you for being patient and finding out the “easy” way versus the 10 month wait way

+1.

It sucks to have to wait longer, but you'll never truly be happy with it unless you send it back.

It's highly probable that you will see warpage/pulling after running a circumferential weld with parts that have dissimilar thickness, such as a thin tube and a fairly solid mount.  This is why I do final boring, facing & threading on mount conversions after welding.  I had initially tried threading beforehand, thinking that I could make adapters that were ready to go, but in almost every case, there was a little bit of runout, and sometimes the adapter distorted enough that perfect threads no longer accepted my plug gauge, so I had to run a tap through them and face them off.

Welding on suppressors can be tricky.  You don't want a whole bunch of tacks all around, takes forever and looks like shit.  Have to have enough pressure on parts to keep things in place, but not so much that it distorts parts once they heat up.  Lots of other considerations.

In the end, this was more of a QA failure than a botched weld job.  Things happen in manufacturing, nature of the beast.  The problems arise when those things get out the door.

My biggest issue currently is that I can't use anything other than the 30cal flashhider endcap, wasn't the case before I sent it in for repair due to the blast baffle coming loose after less than ~200rds of 223/556. This is on three different uppers with the same results, possible endcap strike with the 556 flashhider endcap based on the alignment rod. Regardless, something is off with the can, I can see that it's slightly canted. I'll have to see what they say next Tuesday, comparing the photos to when I first got it in hand to after the repair, the can is aesthetically somewhat different. The can was originally built by BP firearms and was repairs by KG made whom DA switch their entire manufacturing to. Really appreciate the advices, definitely will be sending this thing back to them. Even comparing it to the first photo of when I received it, I really don't know how much more cutting and welding the can can take for them to properly repair it.

I’ve been there man. Got my wolfman out of jail and got an endcap strike. Bought a rod and checked it. Rod was almost touching the endcap. I put a small piece of tape where it leaned and checked on several barrels. Always leaned to the tape. Sent it in and it also took 8 weeks to get back. That was due to them changing shops. Got it back from repair and it still had the problem. I was not happy at all and did not want to sent it back for another 8 weeks. Todd himself gave me a call and we talked for about half an hour. I ended up sending it back and he himself worked on it and I had it back within two weeks. Sent it back man. It will bug you forever if you don’t. I can text Todd for you if you want. But I’m sure he will see your thread.

Also Your blast baffle does not look right at all too. Looks ground down on the left and the whole thing looks skinny too.
Should look like this.
Attached File

Yes, my blast baffle does look like that, when looking through the end where the mount is. When looking at the muzzle end with end cap off....the last few baffles looks pretty cut down and shaved off. Pretty disappointed with the quality control and repair results on this one. My sandman-k and Ghost-45m are perfect, now I'm a bit concerned with my wolfman and mask HD that I currently have in jail.

If they EDM the bore to be concentric to the mount then baffles could look slightly eccentric.  That’s why I wanted you to check the gauge rod against the last baffle in the stack. If that was concentric then error at the front cap is largely cosmetic and fixed by running a larger front cap.  As an example an Omega 300 has a last baffle close to 0.360 but the .30 front cap is close to 0.405.  

Assuming your gauge rod is straight that definitely needs to get checked out by Dead Air.

I’m pretty sure Todd told me they’re EDM’d like that

A friend of mine had this same exact problem. It took 6 or 8 weeks to get the silencer back and it still isn't fixed. I have a DA silencer and I doubt I'll buy another after watching that fiasco unfold.

Maybe it's just me, but I really can't see the cant you are describing in the photos. The alignment rod does make it pretty clear, though.

Please let us know what you hear back from Dead Air.

This. I tried really hard to see what your seeing. I even held my sandman S up to the computer screen and looks the same to me. Let us know what they say.

OP, stand the can on a flat surface and put a machinist square next to it.

I don't have a machinist square on hand, I snap these with comparison to my sandman-k. It's really hard to tell with photos...From what I can see, my sandman-k is perfectly straight and no alignment issues, alignment rod is dead center on all 3 uppers. Recently repaired sandman-s....different story.

So what did Dead Air say today when you called them and sent them the pictures?

Spoke with one of their rep, they are going to have me send it back for further repairs and inspections. He's reaching out to the factory guys to advise them and now I'm just currently waiting for him to email me an RMA and shipping label. He specified that he'll try to get it prioritized and back to me as soon as possible. We'll see how this goes...called around 3pm eastern time, as of now; no RMA/shipping label yet. Will call again if I don't get anything by lunch time tomorrow.

Customer service is in Utah and factory where work is done is in Georgia. So there is a two hour time difference.

Yes, well aware of the time difference. Last time I had to send it back for the loose blast baffle, they had an RMA and shipping label to me in about ~30mins. That's after getting off the phone and having to send them an email of my information and copy of my form 4, was able to drop it off at fedex the next day. I know they're just getting back from the recent holiday weekend and are probably back logged, so I have to be patient to some extent.

Yes, well aware of the time difference. Last time I had to send it back for the loose blast baffle, they had an RMA and shipping label to me in about ~30mins. That's after getting off the phone and having to send them an email of my information and copy of my form 4, was able to drop it off at fedex the next day. I know they're just getting back from the recent holiday weekend and are probably back logged, so I have to be patient to some extent.

I can see the cant now!

Thanks for the photos, that really helps put it into perspective.

Sure thing, hopefully they can fix it. Just dropped off my can and my 556 flashhider endcap at fedex today, should be in their hands by tomorrow. We'll see how this turns out.

@Chaozx15

Hey, super sorry you're dealing with this.  We'll absolutely get it back in and get it fixed.  I've been on the road (I'm actually at the plant now) so I haven't been on the forums so I apologize I'm just seeing this.

Some things to note:

--What you may be seeing is the tube shifting radially on the core--not axially.  This doesn't cause a cant.  The core floats under the tube and resting the back of the can--the compression nut--on a flat surface won't always give you a true indicator of "straightness" because it floats a bit until tightened down onto a mount.   You have two things that are used to quantify alignment:  Angularity and Concentricity.  Concentricity is not a big deal, but angularity is because it magnifies the bore alignment as it gets further away from the muzzle.  The tube shifted over (as it appears) may have some concentricity issues, but typically has no impact on alignment. The core floats underneath that.  Having said that, you're core has a bit of weld deviation to it because you can see the EDM cut is not perfectly straight.  I'm guessing it's something else that caused the tube to appear that way. There's an allowable limit to weld runout because no welded structure is straight.  The baffles aren't an issue because of the EDM cut, and the front cap is oversized with a certain tolerance to allow for this runout.  As long as the bullet is further than 15 thou' away from the front cap, you're fine.  Obviously, getting it as close as possible to centered is very optimal. You're is definitely at this limit and we'll need to check that out.  In other words, you can have a suppressor that has a ton of runout, but because it was EDM'd it'll never hit a baffle, but it will eventually hit the front cap.  

--Note that when we check alignment in the plant, it's under ideal circumstances.  A customers barrel and muzzle device can have a huge impact on alignment.  A suppressor that is very much in spec (say 10-20 thou' runout) that sits on a mount on a barrel thread that perhaps wasn't cut perfectly is several thou' out, could yield something that makes the can look really far out of spec.  I'm not saying this is the case with yours, just saying we see it often.  I looked at one today that the warranty guys presented to me.  It was absolutely perfect in alignment, yet the customer was experiencing shaved jackets in the can.  It was obvious that he has a very bad barrel thread or his barrel is so bad that it's ripping up the bullet.  Someone on our side is going to have to have a very difficult discussion with the customer.  

--The five week lead time you experienced was anomalous because we were still starting up.  Lead times for cans coming in for normal repairs are now 1-2 weeks on average depending on the repair and it's getting faster and faster.

--Many times the welded tube that looks shifted is an optical illusion from how the weld flows.  It also can look like that because there's some float between the core and the tube.  Other times the tube is distorted a bit around the core because of the welds underneath. It floats with the core and I don't know that we've ever seen the tube drive the core to be out of alignment.  Again, not saying this is exactly what is happening to yours, but until we have it in hand, it should fall into one of these categories.  It's good to recognize that you have 8 welds of 14 total components inside the suppressor and there will always be some shifting with fusion welding.  We do everything we can to minimize this as much as possible, but in your case it looks like we didn't do a good job.  

--The work coming out of the new plant is exceptionally good.  Getting this in will be a great opportunity to look for a gap in our system and we appreciate the opportunity to look at it.  


Todd Magee
Dead Air Engineering

@Mageever

Thank you so much for the explanation and insight! I'll look forward to getting it back and hopefully no more issues arises. My RMA is K1360, if it does come across your desk for further attention.  My sandman k and ghost 45m has been absolutely fantastic from the beginning and I have a wolfman and mask HD thats currently waiting on approval.

Thank you again for taking the time and responding to my issues.

As a former welder, and current Certified Welding Inspector and Certified Quality Auditor, I can appreciate all that goes in to getting everything right on something like a suppressor.

I also really appreciate the thoughtful responses from a number of the companies represented here, Dead Air in particular.

As a current Mask user/owner and with a Wolfman and Sandman S in Jail I have been following this and the Wolfman thread very closely.  

I appreciate the fact that as busy as Todd is he takes the time to sit down and write a lengthy and level headed post citing technical issues and explaining them in English for some of us who aren't so minded.  

Hopefully mine don't have some of the issues others have had do not happen to me.  I also hope that the new really is that much better than the old provider they were using.

I had a K that jacked up my accuracy. Sent it back with the faulty mount.

They sent it back the a replacement mount and a letter that basically said all the did was replaced the mount and it passed their alignment test.

Here's what it looked like before I sent it off.





I checked it with my alignment gauge when it returned with the new mount they sent back with it.





I still haven't shot it so it just sits in the safe on the 300BO I put together. It was supposed to be my HD gun. Now, I just keep the Glock on the nightstand.

If you're so unhappy with something that you can literally destroy and then send back to the manufacturer for repair for free, I'm willing to take it off your hands for the cost of the two form 4s it will take to get it to me.

That is very generous, and I may take you up on that at some point. As a single parent working a full-time job, I just don’t have that much time to get to the range to test things out. I can’t really say when I’ll have the opportunity to try out the K.

The hassle of dealing with shipping and the transfer process may just mean this remains a paperweight in the back of the safe. I’m okay with that, too, honestly. I have a .22 can I bought in 2017 that’s never been shot. I probably shouldn’t  have bought so many of these things anyway.

Well, got my can back from second round of repairs (6 days total), sent it in with my 556 flashhider endcap and they sent it back with a standard 762 endcap and now I'm in the process of trying to get my 556 flashhider endcap back.

Supposedly here's what they did.


Everything looks exactly the same, looks to me like all they did was replaced the ratcheting lock collar.

Here's why I suspect so:


 

Weld lines looks exactly the same, compare it to my previous photos in this thread.

How the front baffle looks before i sent it back in again:


How it looks now


Everything looks the same to me....not a damn thing changed, even the weld discoloration from the weld on the front baffle near the endcap looks identical!

Have you tried shooting it? You seem upset still? It’s most likely fine. I’m sure they did what they said.

ETA: It’s nice they include the report of what failed and was repaired. Most companies don’t tell you that.

Are you sure? The repair report shows a recore and cerakote. That's more than changing a collar. Looks like it failed one test so they did a repair and then it passed.

ETA: Looks like they eliminated 10 thousandths runout with the recore.

Alignment rod tests with two different alignment rod on 3 uppers; Adams Arms 11.5 upper pistol build with dead FH, PWS Mk114 mod2 with a pin and weld dead air FH, and lastly a PWS mk111 11.85 mod1 upper with a forward control design FH installed using dead airs shim kit. Comparison of the supposedly recent repaired can vs my sandman K with the ebrake attached.

Sandman S just fresh back from the second round of repair with the provided standard 762 endcap

PWS mk114 with a pin & weld dead air FH:


Adams Arms 11.5 upper with a dead air FH:


PWS mk111 mod 1 upper with forward control FH that utilizes the keymo mounts:


Now comparing it to my sandman K with the ebrake:

 

Go shoot it.

These alignment rods may be the bane of suppressor manufacturer's existence...

If your can just came back from Dead Air where they checked it and recored with an EDM where they are confirmed concentricity, then I take that as the gospel over a $50 alignment rod. I think it's time to shoot the thing. THEN if you have an issue you've got a susbstantial case of "I told you so."

That’s cool they do a report now. Both times my wolfman came back I had to call them and ask what they did.

Based on whats the alignment rods are telling me and looking down the barrel, it looks like I'm only limited to using the 762 FH endcap for this can even after this second round of repair, I don't have my 556 flashhider endcap cause they did not give it back when they sent the can back from repair (so no pictures) . Yes, the work order they attached states they did this and that, but comparing the pictures I just took to when I took them upon discovering the problems, looks to be the same. I'm not sure what else to do other than I just want my 556 flashhider cap back so I can just move on at this point and make the best of it.

Ask to have Bill call you...