Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

You Must Be Logged In To Vote

Posted: 9/27/2018 2:21:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2018 2:27:45 PM EDT by AZ2A]
Is training with absolutely zero supplemental IR (light or lasers) important to you? Does it matter at all or is pretty high on the list for your typical training exercises?

I've almost exclusively used IR light paired with lasers during training and I've recently decided to focus on training without any lasers or light. It's been eye opening to say the least. I'm a huge Aimpoint fanboy but recently swapped out a couple optics for EOTech EXPS3-0s as they seem to be significantly quicker when shooting under NV.

Anyway, just thought I'd get a few opinions on the topic.

Poll to be added but I'd like your opinions on why or why not below. Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/27/2018 3:03:03 PM EDT
I only have a PVS on my non dominant eye so I haven't been. I guess I should.

I can also tell you I've only been training under IR in the dark for a while, probably a couple years and decided to do some under white light and and optic. That was eye opening. I can't believe how spoiled I became by point and shoot with IR.
Link Posted: 9/27/2018 3:19:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2018 10:00:50 PM EDT
We have pvs14s for half our team but no money so far for any IR illum or lasers. So we 100% train without IR... We are Also prohibited from mounting the monoculars to our rifles so using them in conjunction with our eotechs hasn't been an option.

Our SOP is if it's time to shoot white lights go on.
Link Posted: 9/27/2018 10:17:49 PM EDT
LOL.... Many folks here have owned NV long before ir lasers were available to buy.
Link Posted: 9/27/2018 10:35:31 PM EDT
I’ve only trained using supplemental, and as much as it seems like an unfair advantage, I think we can agree that passive is much safer, as I2 isn’t exactly hard to acquire. Therefore it seems wise to train passive.

Taller optic mounts make it MUCH easier to get the head down behind an optic when you have a PVS-14 on your head.

I recently tried a 1.93” and the Knights Tall-boy mount against my lower 1/3 Scalarworks. The 1.93” made it much easier to get a sight picture and retain some peripheral vision, but the Knight’s piece being around 2.25” (I think) was so much better. I can’t say enough about how having the proper height optic helps you feel comfortable using an optic under NODS.
Link Posted: 9/27/2018 11:17:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2018 11:21:52 PM EDT by MunnyShot]
I just started to train with an RDS on NV mode while wearing duals as well with a PVS7 with a standard 1/3 co-whitness height sight Aimpoint. When I only had a single 14 I used my RDS on day setting for my dominant eye as well as IR laser as primary aiming devices. As another poster stated NV to get to wear your going and white light and RDS when going full tilt boogie.
I prefer a Comp M series Aimpoint due to being able to roll the on/off switch with your finger quickly vs turning a dial on a T1/2, MRO, or pushing buttons on an Eotech especially when rapidly transiting from a dark to light environment.
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 1:17:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2018 1:17:51 AM EDT by NVjunkie]
Doing passive training since I got optic risers a while ago.

I’m still slow. At all of it. Lol. I’m ahead of those who don’t have it or don’t train.

I guess. Lol
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 1:34:11 AM EDT
Wether or not supplemental IR is detrimental is dependant on the mission. Obviously IR emission could be a serious issue for military operation against like equipped foes. It would be less of a problem for most LE use, no problem for search and rescue or sport hunting. I can tell you this, without supplemental IR night's get mighty dark when the moon isn't out and you are under canopy. Mighty dark.
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 10:20:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:
I advocate knowing how to use Lights and Lasers, but also to be proficient at shooting through a NV compatible optic like an aimpoint out to 200 meters with no IR light or laser.
View Quote
I wish I had somewhere to shoot at night for training.
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 10:21:42 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Combat_Leader:
We have pvs14s for half our team but no money so far for any IR illum or lasers. So we 100% train without IR... We are Also prohibited from mounting the monoculars to our rifles so using them in conjunction with our eotechs hasn't been an option.

Our SOP is if it's time to shoot white lights go on.
View Quote
Put your Eotechs on risers.
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 11:59:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2018 12:02:57 PM EDT by MunnyShot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I wish I had somewhere to shoot at night for training.
View Quote
BLM land is a good spot for night shooting and for actual live fire training you can find local night airsoft fields or 24-40 hr games. Even though airsoft may not give you realistic fire etc at least all the mechanics, tactics, communication and movement will be there.
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 1:26:14 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I wish I had somewhere to shoot at night for training.
View Quote
In Tx? Are you by a city? I would think there would be time of open blm land in Texas.

Come on over to AZ!
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 2:22:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 2:33:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2018 2:34:58 PM EDT by AZ2A]
Great info everyone. Thanks to everyone for chiming in.

Definitely a good idea to train with and without IR no matter what you do. As night vision becomes more available at lower prices, I believe criminals will start to catch on. Because of this, it's not a bad idea for LEO to focus a little more on training without IR if they even have the luxury of IR lights and lasers already.

And to @Lowdown3 's point about people with all the fancy gear still being ineffective at night, I agree completely. It is completely dependent on training, training, and more training.

Simply put, just because you own a Bösendorfer piano, that doesn't make you g-d damn Frédéric Chopin. Get out there and train for every single situation you can think of. Train with multiple instructors. Then do it again.

Education and learning never stops, especially with NV and the tactics involved.
Link Posted: 9/28/2018 3:52:23 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lowdown3:
Back in the 80's some old SF vets took us out in the middle of the night to a range wherein there was targets with the little "fishing" 2 or 3 inch Cyalume lightsticks taped to the center of cardboard silhouettes. No external light sources, flashlights were not allowed and none of us had any NV in the 80's. One of the guys asked what was the point of the cyalume sticks and one of the SF guys that was a Vietnam vet explained that often times this is all you have at night for a target indicator. The lightstick was to simulate muzzle flash and that was what he meant when he said sometimes that's all you have as a target indicator.

We learned to shoot and hit with iron sights (no optics) those targets. It's not as easy as it would sound. I've since used the same drill dozens of times teaching people this same thing and it's always funny to hear some people say "20 yards? No way I won't hit the target" and then go and see a clean target after a half a magazine.

This is where we started and I'll glad we learned that way first. Some of those old Vietnam era vets knew their way around the night without the modern equipment we have now. We spent tons of training time at night without NV back then (no one had any back then).

If you take that sort of training and add in modern equipment, the results are excellent IMO.

However the opposite is true. I've worked with people that despite having $3K of NV assisting their vision, were almost ineffective at night in the field. Often times city folks, not used to being outside at night where it's truly dark, psychological issues with night, lack of automaticity with weapon skills, as well as basic stuff like just not knowing how to walk around at night. The "wizard eye" as some call it can only help you so much if your psyche is freaking out cause your not used to being in the woods at night without tons of light (IR or white).

IMO, people compensate with IR light sources more than necessary. IR laser, yeah definitely and use it correctly. Being lit up like an IR Christmas tree for no reason, not always a good idea. Every Joe Schmoe with a $200. Russsian Breakalotski NV model can see that. Use IR sparingly.
View Quote
Back in the day we used to shoot the army pop up qualifier at night, targets locked up. An illum flare would be sent up, acquire your target, and you could fire after the flare went out. Man was that hard. I had no problem qualifying expert in the day. At I had trouble qualifying period. It sounds easier than it was.
Link Posted: 9/29/2018 12:17:43 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NVjunkie:
In Tx? Are you by a city? I would think there would be time of open blm land in Texas.

Come on over to AZ!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NVjunkie:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I wish I had somewhere to shoot at night for training.
In Tx? Are you by a city? I would think there would be time of open blm land in Texas.

Come on over to AZ!
I’m just north of Houston. Public land you can shoot on isn’t all that prevalent in Texas.
Link Posted: 9/29/2018 12:41:30 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I'm just north of Houston. Public land you can shoot on isn't all that prevalent in Texas.
View Quote
@lilMAC25

It's a bit of a hike for you but I have a few acres down in Boling-Lago that I am slowly turning into a range. I put my first IR laser +PVS14 rounds into steel out there last night as a matter of fact. As time permits I'm going to build a berm suitable for 200 yard shooting with sides for close in work

You can also checkout Impact Zone in Brookshire, definitely closer. Phil will let members do night training as long as it's suppressors after 8:30p
Link Posted: 9/29/2018 12:52:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2018 12:53:18 PM EDT by lilMAC25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TX-Zen:
@lilMAC25

It's a bit of a hike for you but I have a few acres down in Boling-Lago that I am slowly turning into a range. I put my first IR laser +PVS14 rounds into steel out there last night as a matter of fact. As time permits I'm going to build a berm suitable for 200 yard shooting with sides for close in work

You can also checkout Impact Zone in Brookshire, definitely closer. Phil will let members do night training as long as it's suppressors after 8:30p
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TX-Zen:
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:

I'm just north of Houston. Public land you can shoot on isn't all that prevalent in Texas.
@lilMAC25

It's a bit of a hike for you but I have a few acres down in Boling-Lago that I am slowly turning into a range. I put my first IR laser +PVS14 rounds into steel out there last night as a matter of fact. As time permits I'm going to build a berm suitable for 200 yard shooting with sides for close in work

You can also checkout Impact Zone in Brookshire, definitely closer. Phil will let members do night training as long as it's suppressors after 8:30p
Appreciate both of those. Brookshire is about 1 hr from my house. I might have to see if I know anyone who has a membership!

Boling-Lago is showing as 105 min. Not sure I can swing that.
Link Posted: 9/29/2018 7:00:45 PM EDT
I happen to have one, @nictra has one and a couple other guys we shoot with happen to have one
Link Posted: 10/1/2018 2:20:10 AM EDT
I have an Impact Zone membership too. Need to sight in a DBAL i2. Perhaps we should set up a night.
Link Posted: 10/4/2018 6:48:05 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DevL:
I have an Impact Zone membership too. Need to sight in a DBAL i2. Perhaps we should set up a night.
View Quote
Friday's work best for me but when I am in town I can scoot out during the week too, let me know
Link Posted: 10/4/2018 8:51:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AZ2A:
Great info everyone. Thanks to everyone for chiming in.

Definitely a good idea to train with and without IR no matter what you do. As night vision becomes more available at lower prices, I believe criminals will start to catch on. Because of this, it's not a bad idea for LEO to focus a little more on training without IR if they even have the luxury of IR lights and lasers already.

And to @Lowdown3 's point about people with all the fancy gear still being ineffective at night, I agree completely. It is completely dependent on training, training, and more training.

Simply put, just because you own a Bösendorfer piano, that doesn't make you g-d damn Frédéric Chopin. Get out there and train for every single situation you can think of. Train with multiple instructors. Then do it again.

Education and learning never stops, especially with NV and the tactics involved.
View Quote
NV may have become more available, but it has not really come down in price.
Link Posted: 10/4/2018 8:53:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CTM1:

NV may have become more available, but it has not really come down in price.
View Quote
Second hand PVS14s and PVS7s have definitely come down in price in the last 5 years
Link Posted: 10/11/2018 10:42:36 AM EDT
Very important.
Link Posted: 10/14/2018 2:46:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/16/2018 11:33:32 AM EDT
While I can, it’s not something I practice. My common targets don’t have nvgs. But I’m down for night airsoft group haha
Top Top